WDM or ASIO dilemma

Nos402 · Dec 28, 2005, 10:05 PM

I'm totally new to these drivers and MIDI (I usually just record real audio sources into Sonar), so here's my dilemma: In Sonar, I get better latency when using my MIDI keyboard to control synths in Reason if I set Sonar's Driver Mode to ASIO, however, if I want to actually convert any MIDI tracks in Sonar to audio, I apprently have to have Sonar set to WDM/KS driver mode to be able to have the MIDI tracks play back while simultaneously recording the MIDI sound coming from the sound card. With Sonar set to ASIO driver mode, the only input options available for an audio track wer the selection of "kx ASIO kx in" inputs, and I couldn't seem to actually find a way to convert MIDI tracks to Audio for mixdown and such in this mode. It wouldn't be so bad except that you have to close Reason and Sonar if you switch Driver Modes.

So say I have my "Organ" track which is set to output to kx synth2, channel 5 triggering an organ sound. Is there no way to actually record this audio for mixdown with Sonar set to ASIO driver mode? There doesn't seem to be, since the only input options I have for audio are kx ASIO kx in inputs. The only way I've found to actually record the audio from a MIDI track is set Driver Mode to WDM/KS and then select the "Stereo kx Wave".

Any advice for a newb? I've been searching the forums but have not yet found the answer!

*EDIT*
Doh! well I guess I'm stuck with WDW/KS mode as that's the only mode that will playback actual audio tracks. Trying to play a Reason device (with Reason rewired into Sonar, and using a MIDI keyboard) in this mode is painful though. Just enough latency to toally throw off the feel.

Maddogg6 · Dec 29, 2005, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nos402

I'm totally new to these drivers and MIDI (I usually just record real audio sources into Sonar), so here's my dilemma: In Sonar, I get better latency when using my MIDI keyboard to control synths in Reason if I set Sonar's Driver Mode to ASIO, however, if I want to actually convert any MIDI tracks in Sonar to audio, I apprently have to have Sonar set to WDM/KS driver mode to be able to have the MIDI tracks play back while simultaneously recording the MIDI sound coming from the sound card. With Sonar set to ASIO driver mode, the only input options available for an audio track wer the selection of "kx ASIO kx in" inputs, and I couldn't seem to actually find a way to convert MIDI tracks to Audio for mixdown and such in this mode. It wouldn't be so bad except that you have to close Reason and Sonar if you switch Driver Modes.

So say I have my "Organ" track which is set to output to kx synth2, channel 5 triggering an organ sound. Is there no way to actually record this audio for mixdown with Sonar set to ASIO driver mode? There doesn't seem to be, since the only input options I have for audio are kx ASIO kx in inputs. The only way I've found to actually record the audio from a MIDI track is set Driver Mode to WDM/KS and then select the "Stereo kx Wave".

Any advice for a newb? I've been searching the forums but have not yet found the answer!

*EDIT*
Doh! well I guess I'm stuck with WDW/KS mode as that's the only mode that will playback actual audio tracks. Trying to play a Reason device (with Reason rewired into Sonar, and using a MIDI keyboard) in this mode is painful though. Just enough latency to toally throw off the feel.

ASIO can be recorded in Sonar - do a search for setting up KX DSP - (its all I use - Sonar that is - great latency)
Then as specific questions to what you may not understand.

Info regarding CUBASE and KX DSP may help also.
But default DSP is not optimal for ASIO recording in my opinion (as well as many others here)

Also - make sure to use KX asio - there maybe some other ASIO drivers installed on your machine (Adobe for instance) that wont work and give errors.

I will give a 'readers digest' version of what you need to do to record ASIO in sonar.

in KX DSP connect what ever you want to record (MIDI is FXBuss 2/3 - the #91/93 CC are sent via FX bus 13/14 respectively) to ASIO INs on EPILOG.
SAVE SETTINGS and dont be affraid to experiment - just re-load saved settings and your back to the beginning.

Make sure a Soundfont is loaded if using KX MIDI SYNTH 1/2 - KX doesnt come with any or loaded by default.

Look for MX6 - in ProFX - and learn how to use those plugins INSTEAD of FXBuss/Epilog - its easier to understand the DSP signal flow than using default DSP config.

Set Sonar audio track to THAT asio channel for audio in. Do THIS after changing the Sonar DEFAULT Audio format TO 48 Khz (44 Khz wont record with ASIO)

Record THAT audio track in sonar... Wha-La... Instant happiness.

thomasabarnes · Dec 29, 2005, 05:12 AM

You can also click on the SONAR and kX Setup Guide in my Signature and use or get ideas for a custom DSP setup from the guide I wrote.

Also in SONAR Options/Audio/ Advanced (make sure ASIO driver is selected) and Drivers section (make sure you see all ASIO ins/outs from ASIO 00 through ASIO 14, and make sure they all are highlighted Blue).

Please see the guide I wrote, especially the SONAR Setup and MIDI to Audio sections.

Nos402 · Jan 3, 2006, 06:09 AM

Damn, I can't figure out what wrong. Your posts were really helpful and informative, and I learned a LOT about working the DSP a little better, but even after followingthe guide to DSP setup, the guide to Sonar setup and everything esle I could find, I still can't play back audio files in Sonar. I always get the pop up error "Unable to open audio playback device. Device may not support the current project's audio format or may be in use." I stepped through each step in the guides several times to make sure I wasn't just missing something.

At this point I haven't tried recording yet as I'm just trying to get audio tracks to play at all when using the ASIO driver option in Sonar.

I'll keep investigating, and thanks for all the help!

thomasabarnes · Jan 3, 2006, 07:15 AM

I think the problem is that the audio youre trying to play is not 48 KHz/16 Bit. As far as I know, it has to be that sample rate and bit depth. But, I think I played some SONAR demo songs before without converting them to 48 KHz/16 bit.

Anyway try to start a new project at the right sample rate bit depth, record audio, and see if it plays back.

Then, figure out the other audio playback matter. I'm busy right now, but later, I'll import a SONAR demo and see if it plays. And get back with you about it.

thomasabarnes · Jan 3, 2006, 08:07 AM

For audio that's 44.1 kHz/16 Bit:

I'm using the .3538i driver, but I think this is the case with all .3538 versions.

OK, when using ASIO mode, what you have to do is open the kX Control panel (Options/Audio ASIO Panel) and using the Format dropdown menu change to one of the 16 Bit/44.1 kHz options.

Click OK on any message windows that may pop up. It appears you dont have to close and reopen SONAR for the audio to playback.

But is does look like only audio in 44.1/16 Bit and 48 kHz/16 Bit will be able to be played back using the kX driver (well, that's the case with an Audigy soundcard. It may be different with an Audigy 2 or Audigy 2 ZS, etc).

Maddogg6 · Jan 3, 2006, 06:27 PM

With an Audigy 2ZS - Using ASIO in 44Khz mode equates to no recording channels available (Shows as 16/44 - [8+0] - in ASIO control panel) it does work. But no record.
So converting sonar projects was what I had to do..

What I did was

Existing project:

Export audio

delete all audio tracks.

Save as midi
if using multiple midi ports - Save each midi ports tracks as seperate midi file - older sonar had a bug/problem with this , I dont think MIDI files support multiple midi ports and I think sonar was trying to anyway, and I havent tried to see if its fixed.

Then set up sonars default audio format..

Make a new project.

I have NOT found a way to 'convert' or change audio formats in a PROJECT or BUNDLE file - if any one has please post info..

Nos402 · Jan 3, 2006, 08:09 PM

Well I definitely got it all working for new projects. I haven't tried opening my old projects yet, but the one that was giving me the problems was a Sonar tutorial, so it's probably just in the wrong format. This whole experience was very valuable as I now know a hell of a lot more about the drivers and the DSP than I did before. Thanks to all the helpful replies.

thomasabarnes · Jan 4, 2006, 07:03 AM

Use the kX ASIO Control Panel to change to one of the 44/16 formats. Then u can playback the SONAR demos in ASIO driver mode. I mentioned this above. Are you saying you still cant playback a SONAR demo after you change the format to one of the 44/16 formats?

Nos402 · Jan 5, 2006, 03:00 AM

Yeah that did indeed work! Thanks!

thomasabarnes · Jan 5, 2006, 08:42 AM

That's good.

Dec 28, 2005, 10:05 PM	#1
Nos402 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20 Rep Power: 0	WDM or ASIO dilemma I'm totally new to these drivers and MIDI (I usually just record real audio sources into Sonar), so here's my dilemma: In Sonar, I get better latency when using my MIDI keyboard to control synths in Reason if I set Sonar's Driver Mode to ASIO, however, if I want to actually convert any MIDI tracks in Sonar to audio, I apprently have to have Sonar set to WDM/KS driver mode to be able to have the MIDI tracks play back while simultaneously recording the MIDI sound coming from the sound card. With Sonar set to ASIO driver mode, the only input options available for an audio track wer the selection of "kx ASIO kx in" inputs, and I couldn't seem to actually find a way to convert MIDI tracks to Audio for mixdown and such in this mode. It wouldn't be so bad except that you have to close Reason and Sonar if you switch Driver Modes. So say I have my "Organ" track which is set to output to kx synth2, channel 5 triggering an organ sound. Is there no way to actually record this audio for mixdown with Sonar set to ASIO driver mode? There doesn't seem to be, since the only input options I have for audio are kx ASIO kx in inputs. The only way I've found to actually record the audio from a MIDI track is set Driver Mode to WDM/KS and then select the "Stereo kx Wave". Any advice for a newb? I've been searching the forums but have not yet found the answer! EDIT Doh! well I guess I'm stuck with WDW/KS mode as that's the only mode that will playback actual audio tracks. Trying to play a Reason device (with Reason rewired into Sonar, and using a MIDI keyboard) in this mode is painful though. Just enough latency to toally throw off the feel. Last edited by Nos402; Dec 28, 2005 at 10:17 PM.

Dec 29, 2005, 05:12 AM	#3
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	You can also click on the SONAR and kX Setup Guide in my Signature and use or get ideas for a custom DSP setup from the guide I wrote. Also in SONAR Options/Audio/ Advanced (make sure ASIO driver is selected) and Drivers section (make sure you see all ASIO ins/outs from ASIO 00 through ASIO 14, and make sure they all are highlighted Blue). Please see the guide I wrote, especially the SONAR Setup and MIDI to Audio sections. __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs Last edited by thomasabarnes; Dec 29, 2005 at 05:22 AM.

Jan 3, 2006, 07:15 AM	#5
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	I think the problem is that the audio youre trying to play is not 48 KHz/16 Bit. As far as I know, it has to be that sample rate and bit depth. But, I think I played some SONAR demo songs before without converting them to 48 KHz/16 bit. Anyway try to start a new project at the right sample rate bit depth, record audio, and see if it plays back. Then, figure out the other audio playback matter. I'm busy right now, but later, I'll import a SONAR demo and see if it plays. And get back with you about it. __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Jan 3, 2006, 08:07 AM	#6
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	For audio that's 44.1 kHz/16 Bit: I'm using the .3538i driver, but I think this is the case with all .3538 versions. OK, when using ASIO mode, what you have to do is open the kX Control panel (Options/Audio ASIO Panel) and using the Format dropdown menu change to one of the 16 Bit/44.1 kHz options. Click OK on any message windows that may pop up. It appears you dont have to close and reopen SONAR for the audio to playback. But is does look like only audio in 44.1/16 Bit and 48 kHz/16 Bit will be able to be played back using the kX driver (well, that's the case with an Audigy soundcard. It may be different with an Audigy 2 or Audigy 2 ZS, etc). __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs Last edited by thomasabarnes; Jan 3, 2006 at 08:34 AM.

Jan 5, 2006, 08:42 AM	#11
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	That's good. __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Jan 3, 2006, 06:09 AM	Thread Starter #4
Nos402 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20 Rep Power: 0	Damn, I can't figure out what wrong. Your posts were really helpful and informative, and I learned a LOT about working the DSP a little better, but even after followingthe guide to DSP setup, the guide to Sonar setup and everything esle I could find, I still can't play back audio files in Sonar. I always get the pop up error "Unable to open audio playback device. Device may not support the current project's audio format or may be in use." I stepped through each step in the guides several times to make sure I wasn't just missing something. At this point I haven't tried recording yet as I'm just trying to get audio tracks to play at all when using the ASIO driver option in Sonar. I'll keep investigating, and thanks for all the help!

Jan 3, 2006, 06:27 PM	#7
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 50	With an Audigy 2ZS - Using ASIO in 44Khz mode equates to no recording channels available (Shows as 16/44 - [8+0] - in ASIO control panel) it does work. But no record. So converting sonar projects was what I had to do.. What I did was Existing project: Export audio delete all audio tracks. Save as midi if using multiple midi ports - Save each midi ports tracks as seperate midi file - older sonar had a bug/problem with this , I dont think MIDI files support multiple midi ports and I think sonar was trying to anyway, and I havent tried to see if its fixed. Then set up sonars default audio format.. Make a new project. I have NOT found a way to 'convert' or change audio formats in a PROJECT or BUNDLE file - if any one has please post info..

Jan 3, 2006, 08:09 PM	Thread Starter #8
Nos402 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20 Rep Power: 0	Well I definitely got it all working for new projects. I haven't tried opening my old projects yet, but the one that was giving me the problems was a Sonar tutorial, so it's probably just in the wrong format. This whole experience was very valuable as I now know a hell of a lot more about the drivers and the DSP than I did before. Thanks to all the helpful replies.

Jan 4, 2006, 07:03 AM	#9
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	Use the kX ASIO Control Panel to change to one of the 44/16 formats. Then u can playback the SONAR demos in ASIO driver mode. I mentioned this above. Are you saying you still cant playback a SONAR demo after you change the format to one of the 44/16 formats? __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Jan 5, 2006, 03:00 AM	Thread Starter #10
Nos402 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20 Rep Power: 0	Yeah that did indeed work! Thanks!