How can I turn down just the monitor volume?

Nos402 · Jan 3, 2006, 07:32 PM

I set up my SB Live, Sonar, and KX drivers with the ProFX DSP config as shown here. The one thing I have not figured out how to do in this config, is to turn down just the wave playback volume without turning down the MIDI playback volume or the Wave recording level.

With the default DSP settings (and back when I used CL drivers) I could just turn down the Wave volume slider while leaving the MIDI volume and Wave record sliders all the way up.

Basically the situation is that when I'm recording audio, I use the MIDI click track to guide me (so it doesn't get recorded), but once I start playing, I can't hear the click very well over my audio source, so I need to turn down the audio playback while leaving the MIDI click at full volume, but also leave the audio record level unaffected.

I'm sure it must just be some simple DSP configuration that I'm missing. Suggestions?

Nos402 · Jan 4, 2006, 02:03 PM

I couldn't figure out how to do it with just one MX6 so I added a second MX6 and hooked all my sources to both mixers, with the first one handling the main bus and second one handling the record bus.

thomasabarnes · Jan 4, 2006, 02:34 PM

Add another ProFX SRC and set it to FX Bus 10/11, for example. Connect it to the MX6 and from the MX6 RecR/L to the corresponding inputs on the ProFX ASIO plugin. Also check the R box in the MX 6 for the channel you want to do the recording (ASIO 10/11 in this example). In SONAR set the track's output to ASIO 4/5, and the recording track input to ASIO 10/11.

EDIT:
I spoke incorrectly above. I was sleepy. The channel that will do the recording is the SRC you set to AC97 (mic) or Line In, or the ADC channel if using new ProFX. Checkmark the R box for the channel that you want to record.
EDIT done

Use the MX6 to adjust the ASIO recording volume, ASIO playback volume, and MIDI playback volume. The point is to use same ASIO output in all tracks, and to use a different ASIO recording input.

For example, if you have ASIO 4/5 connected to MX6 channel 1, you use the MX6 channel 1 slider to adjust the volume. If MIDI is connected to MX6 channel 2, use the MX6 channel 2 slider, etc. Then, ASIO 10/11 connected to MX6 channel 3 with the channel 3 R box ticked (and in SONAR ASIO 10/11 for the track input source and ASIO 4/5 for the track's output source). Make sure no check mark is in the R box of the MIDI channel, in this case MX6 channel 2, so that the metronome click is not recorded.

Get it?

Nos402 · Jan 5, 2006, 01:30 AM

Sadly, no I apparently don't get it! I followed your example with this setup:

In sonor-
Source track (output from Battery Drums plugin) going out to "kx ASIO kx out 04"
recording track input "kx ASIO xk in 10" and output to "kx ASIO kx out 04"

In the DSP-
fx 4/5 > In 1L/1R (MX6)
fx 10/11 > In 2L/2R (MX6)

Main L/R (MX6) > Out 1/2 (k1lt)
Rec L/R (MX6) > ASIO 10/11 (Asio)

Now with this setup, clicking R on IN2 (fx 10/11 on the MX6, which is what you seemed to suggest) Sends nothing to the recording track, which makes sense to me since it's sending nothing to the Rec bus, which then goes to 10/11, which then gets sent back into IN2 creating a loop of no signal.

To get signal to the recording track I must click R on IN1 (thus sending fx 4/5 on the MX6 to the rec L/R outputs on the MX6) in which case I'm back to the same dilemma; turning its slider down decreses its output to both the main bus and the rec bus.

Am I making any sense? Is there something I misunderstood or am missing? I could post a screenshot of my DSP screen or anything else if it would help. The good news being that my previously mentioned setup with 2 MX6s, one for the main bus and one for the rec bus does the job, but I'm certainly open to finding more elegant solutions!

Now one thing your advice led me to try which I don't understand why it doesn't work:
I click R on IN1 to send fx 4/5 (the output from my source track) to the rec bus, then I UNCHECK the M so that IN1 is going only to the rec bus and not the main bus. Theoretically I thought I should then be able to use the IN1 slider to control the record level, while using the IN2 (which should be receiving the signal from the Rec bus on fx 10/11) to control the listening volume, but when I uncheck the M on IN1, I get no sound even though I do still get full signal on the recording track. Why I get no audio is the part I don't get since it seems like I should be hearing it on IN2 via the rec bus. I still get a signal on the MX6, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomasabarnes

Add another ProFX SRC and set it to FX Bus 10/11, for example. Connect it to the MX6 and from the MX6 RecR/L to the corresponding inputs on the ProFX ASIO plugin. Also check the R box in the MX 6 for the channel you want to do the recording (ASIO 10/11 in this example). In SONAR set the track's output to ASIO 4/5, and the recording track input to ASIO 10/11.

Use the MX6 to adjust the ASIO recording volume, ASIO playback volume, and MIDI playback volume. The point is to use same ASIO output in all tracks, and to use a different ASIO recording input.

For example, if you have ASIO 4/5 connected to MX6 channel 1, you use the MX6 channel 1 slider to adjust the volume. If MIDI is connected to MX6 channel 2, use the MX6 channel 2 slider, etc. Then, ASIO 10/11 connected to MX6 channel 3 with the channel 3 R box ticked (and in SONAR ASIO 10/11 for the track input source and ASIO 4/5 for the track's output source). Make sure no check mark is in the R box of the MIDI channel, in this case MX6 channel 2, so that the metronome click is not recorded.

Get it?

miguel · Jan 5, 2006, 03:11 AM

if you've got some empty stripe in mx6 connect that same source there, so you've got your record source to in1 and in2. now enable only monitor in in1, and only record in in2. now each slider of in1 and in2 should control monitor and record levels respectively, i hope

regards

thomasabarnes · Jan 5, 2006, 05:04 AM

miguel:

I thought I said the same thing. Just different MX6 stripes (channels) used.

Anyway.

Here we go again.

Ok No402, what kX driver version r u using (I assume .3537)? What version of SONAR?

EDIT:

OK I'll try to be clearer. The only audio I record is a mic.

Say youre using 3537 and the new ProFX plugins.

You load ADC and set it to mic.

You load 3 instances of ProFX SRC, set one to FX Bus 0/1 (ASIO 0/1), one to FX Bus 2/3 (MIDI playback), and one to FX Bus 4/5 (ASIO 4/5).

Connect ADC to MX6 channel 1, Connect ASIO 0/1 to MX6 channel 2, ASIO 4/5 to MX6 channel 3, and the MIDI playback to MX6 channel 4. Connect MX6 main to K2lt out1 l/r. and set k2lt out 1 to analog Front. Connect MX6 RecL/R to ASIO pins 4/5 on ProFX ASIO plugin. In MX6 enable the M and E boxes for channels 1, 2, 3, and 4. Also for recording the Mic checkmark the R box for MX6 Channel 1. That means only MX6 channel 1 will be recorded, and the record volume is controlled with the MX6 channel 1 slider.

To record mic in SONAR select Stereo kX ASIO kX In 4 as the input for the track you want to record on, and select the kX ASIO kX out 00 as the track's output. Also in SONAR, set all audio track outputs to kX ASIO kX out 00 (including SoftSynths). This will be the ASIO playback channel for all tracks, and the playback (monitor) volume will be controlled with the MX6 channel 2 slider. The MIDI metronome volume will be controlled with the MX6 channel 4 slider, and the record volume will be controlled with the MX6 Channel 1 slider.

Since all tracks in SONAR are set to 1 ASIO playback channel (MX6 channel 2), you can control the volume of them all by adjusting the MX6 channel 2 slider.

Now, is this clear enough?

Nos402 · Jan 5, 2006, 02:03 PM

Hmm, I guess I did understand after all, but it's not working for me. Must be something with my particular setup. For one, I'm using the K1lt since I have a SB Live. I'll also try the newest ProFX plugins, since I don't think I have ADC as an option.

I'm on KX 3537 and Sonar 5 PE.

EDIT
I think the new ProFX plugins might have done it for me with their "pre-fader record" option. I'll have to try when I get home! Thanks for all the help. Hopefully I'll soon go from newb to expert!

miguel · Jan 5, 2006, 05:00 PM

well, if MX6 now has prefader option it's solved. I'm still using 3534 so the MX6 isn't much up to date, therefore my suggestion of connecting the mic to two separate MX6 stripes, one slider for monitor, the other for record.

thomasabarnes, sorry for not to reading your post thoroughly, after reading Nos402's went straight to quick reply.

Nos402 · Jan 6, 2006, 05:13 AM

So every time I think I'm done, I find a new wrinkle!

Now I have this dilemma: If I turn down a channel on the MX6 it doesn't turn down the rear volume since rear (6/7) is wired straight to Rear Out on the k1lt. See my DSP screenshot. I have Out 1L/1R= Digital Front (I hook my 4.1 speakers up to the single Digital output on my SB Live) and Out 2L/2R=Rear output. I couldn't think of another way to wire it which would give me playback volume control of a single source in both front and back, and still be able to send 6/7 discreetly to the rear output on the k1lt.

One alternative I've found is using the default DSP, with one change: wiring fx 0/1 direct to ASIO 14/15 so I can set tracks in Sonar to ASIO 14/15 to record. I'm understanding more an more each day, but with each level of understanding comes another level of fumbling in the dark not knowing what the hell I'm doing just yet! I have no idea of the pros and cons each of these systems has. Her's the few I do know:

Using the screenshot ProFX DSP:
Pros-
no need to use the kx Mixer (some seem to find that a pro)
simpler, cleaner DSP

Cons-
No single slider to reduce a single source in both front and rear.

Using the default DSP with my one mod:
Pros-
It seems I can do everything that I can do with the other DSP plus Raise the volume in both front/back simultaneously

cons-
Much more cluttered and complicated
Have to use the kx Mixer

Oi! Me brain!

miguel · Jan 6, 2006, 01:52 PM

one possible soulution would be not to use mx6 normal outs at all, but use FX1 send for the front then FX2 send for the rear. Now you can put all your sources (including 6/7) into the MX6 and control as following: Since the sends are post-fader the level fader controls the overall volume of the source, and each FXsend controls how much each source goes to front/rear. Should work fine.
regards

Nos402 · Jan 6, 2006, 02:18 PM

Simple and elegant solution, Miguel! Thanks! So I haven't quite figured out the whole "rear speaker" thing completely. Here's where I'm currently at: DSP Screenshot

I used Miguel's idea of using Efx 1/2 busses from the MX6 to send F/R to Digital Front/Rear on the k1lt. This is where my knowledge gets fuzzy. To get the speaker test working correctly I sent 4/5 to Send a (Front), and 6/7 to Send B (Rear). Now I tried playing Winamp. I found Winamp plays on 0/1 (as I expected). I want Winamp on all 4 speakers so I sent it to A and B. When I did this the sound got really thin, which I suspected was an out of phase problem, so I inserted the phase module as seen in the screenshot and all seems good.

Here's where I'm fuzzy: When I used to use the CL drivers everything always came out of all 4 speakers. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm totally theorizing here based on my observations and experiences. It seems that if something (like a game with environmental sound effects, or gunshots coming from behind you when someone is shooting from behind you)) specifically has surround sound sources they will be routed to 4/5 and 6/7 but if something only has stereo (like winamp) then it takes a special module like surrounder, or a setup like I have (sending to both front and rear with one signal's phase shifted) to get the output in all 4 speakers. Is this correct?

miguel · Jan 6, 2006, 07:02 PM

yes you're right, Nos402. You may want to look at the kXrouter. In that window it's configured how each audio or synth device is routed into the dsp. If you look at wave 0/1 (winamp in your setup) it goes to fxbus 0/1, but you have also 2 more destinations (by default 13/14 for fx sends) that also have a level fader. Try sending those to a free fxbus pair (8/9?), that fxbus8/9 into a phase invert, that into a free mx6 strip (still got one in your dsp screenshot) and set that strip to go to FX2 (rear).

This way you'll phase invert only what you want to, not everything that goes to rear (from multispeaker stuff like games you mentioned). I expect the multichannel softwares like games to use fxbus 4/5 6/7 etc so those will pass unmodified. Then all the stereo stuff like winamp will go to fxbus 0/1 unmodified and to 8/9 with the needed phase inversion.

On a side note, maybe you want to add something else than just phase inversion to 8/9, try a very very small delay and some lowpass fillter to dampen the highs like it's a reflected signal, etc. Just tinker around, maybe you get some more "environmental" feel than just a copy of the front going to the rear.
regards

Jan 3, 2006, 07:32 PM	#1
Nos402 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20 Rep Power: 0	How can I turn down just the monitor volume? I set up my SB Live, Sonar, and KX drivers with the ProFX DSP config as shown here. The one thing I have not figured out how to do in this config, is to turn down just the wave playback volume without turning down the MIDI playback volume or the Wave recording level. With the default DSP settings (and back when I used CL drivers) I could just turn down the Wave volume slider while leaving the MIDI volume and Wave record sliders all the way up. Basically the situation is that when I'm recording audio, I use the MIDI click track to guide me (so it doesn't get recorded), but once I start playing, I can't hear the click very well over my audio source, so I need to turn down the audio playback while leaving the MIDI click at full volume, but also leave the audio record level unaffected. I'm sure it must just be some simple DSP configuration that I'm missing. Suggestions?

Jan 4, 2006, 02:34 PM	#3
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,375 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Add another ProFX SRC and set it to FX Bus 10/11, for example. Connect it to the MX6 and from the MX6 RecR/L to the corresponding inputs on the ProFX ASIO plugin. Also check the R box in the MX 6 for the channel you want to do the recording (ASIO 10/11 in this example). In SONAR set the track's output to ASIO 4/5, and the recording track input to ASIO 10/11. EDIT: I spoke incorrectly above. I was sleepy. The channel that will do the recording is the SRC you set to AC97 (mic) or Line In, or the ADC channel if using new ProFX. Checkmark the R box for the channel that you want to record. EDIT done Use the MX6 to adjust the ASIO recording volume, ASIO playback volume, and MIDI playback volume. The point is to use same ASIO output in all tracks, and to use a different ASIO recording input. For example, if you have ASIO 4/5 connected to MX6 channel 1, you use the MX6 channel 1 slider to adjust the volume. If MIDI is connected to MX6 channel 2, use the MX6 channel 2 slider, etc. Then, ASIO 10/11 connected to MX6 channel 3 with the channel 3 R box ticked (and in SONAR ASIO 10/11 for the track input source and ASIO 4/5 for the track's output source). Make sure no check mark is in the R box of the MIDI channel, in this case MX6 channel 2, so that the metronome click is not recorded. Get it? __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs Last edited by thomasabarnes; Jan 5, 2006 at 11:45 PM.

Jan 5, 2006, 05:04 AM	#6
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,375 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	miguel: I thought I said the same thing. Just different MX6 stripes (channels) used. Anyway. Here we go again. Ok No402, what kX driver version r u using (I assume .3537)? What version of SONAR? EDIT: OK I'll try to be clearer. The only audio I record is a mic. Say youre using 3537 and the new ProFX plugins. You load ADC and set it to mic. You load 3 instances of ProFX SRC, set one to FX Bus 0/1 (ASIO 0/1), one to FX Bus 2/3 (MIDI playback), and one to FX Bus 4/5 (ASIO 4/5). Connect ADC to MX6 channel 1, Connect ASIO 0/1 to MX6 channel 2, ASIO 4/5 to MX6 channel 3, and the MIDI playback to MX6 channel 4. Connect MX6 main to K2lt out1 l/r. and set k2lt out 1 to analog Front. Connect MX6 RecL/R to ASIO pins 4/5 on ProFX ASIO plugin. In MX6 enable the M and E boxes for channels 1, 2, 3, and 4. Also for recording the Mic checkmark the R box for MX6 Channel 1. That means only MX6 channel 1 will be recorded, and the record volume is controlled with the MX6 channel 1 slider. To record mic in SONAR select Stereo kX ASIO kX In 4 as the input for the track you want to record on, and select the kX ASIO kX out 00 as the track's output. Also in SONAR, set all audio track outputs to kX ASIO kX out 00 (including SoftSynths). This will be the ASIO playback channel for all tracks, and the playback (monitor) volume will be controlled with the MX6 channel 2 slider. The MIDI metronome volume will be controlled with the MX6 channel 4 slider, and the record volume will be controlled with the MX6 Channel 1 slider. Since all tracks in SONAR are set to 1 ASIO playback channel (MX6 channel 2), you can control the volume of them all by adjusting the MX6 channel 2 slider. Now, is this clear enough? __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs Last edited by thomasabarnes; Jan 5, 2006 at 07:37 AM.

Jan 5, 2006, 02:03 PM	Thread Starter #7
Nos402 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20 Rep Power: 0	Hmm, I guess I did understand after all, but it's not working for me. Must be something with my particular setup. For one, I'm using the K1lt since I have a SB Live. I'll also try the newest ProFX plugins, since I don't think I have ADC as an option. I'm on KX 3537 and Sonar 5 PE. EDIT I think the new ProFX plugins might have done it for me with their "pre-fader record" option. I'll have to try when I get home! Thanks for all the help. Hopefully I'll soon go from newb to expert! Last edited by Nos402; Jan 5, 2006 at 02:55 PM.

Jan 6, 2006, 07:02 PM	#12
miguel DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 209 Rep Power: 0	yes you're right, Nos402. You may want to look at the kXrouter. In that window it's configured how each audio or synth device is routed into the dsp. If you look at wave 0/1 (winamp in your setup) it goes to fxbus 0/1, but you have also 2 more destinations (by default 13/14 for fx sends) that also have a level fader. Try sending those to a free fxbus pair (8/9?), that fxbus8/9 into a phase invert, that into a free mx6 strip (still got one in your dsp screenshot) and set that strip to go to FX2 (rear). This way you'll phase invert only what you want to, not everything that goes to rear (from multispeaker stuff like games you mentioned). I expect the multichannel softwares like games to use fxbus 4/5 6/7 etc so those will pass unmodified. Then all the stereo stuff like winamp will go to fxbus 0/1 unmodified and to 8/9 with the needed phase inversion. On a side note, maybe you want to add something else than just phase inversion to 8/9, try a very very small delay and some lowpass fillter to dampen the highs like it's a reflected signal, etc. Just tinker around, maybe you get some more "environmental" feel than just a copy of the front going to the rear. regards Last edited by miguel; Jan 6, 2006 at 07:05 PM. Reason: I meant stereo (simple 2 channel) instead of mono for winamp

Jan 4, 2006, 02:03 PM	Thread Starter #2
Nos402 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20 Rep Power: 0	I couldn't figure out how to do it with just one MX6 so I added a second MX6 and hooked all my sources to both mixers, with the first one handling the main bus and second one handling the record bus.

Jan 5, 2006, 03:11 AM	#5
miguel DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 209 Rep Power: 0	if you've got some empty stripe in mx6 connect that same source there, so you've got your record source to in1 and in2. now enable only monitor in in1, and only record in in2. now each slider of in1 and in2 should control monitor and record levels respectively, i hope regards

Jan 5, 2006, 05:00 PM	#8
miguel DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 209 Rep Power: 0	well, if MX6 now has prefader option it's solved. I'm still using 3534 so the MX6 isn't much up to date, therefore my suggestion of connecting the mic to two separate MX6 stripes, one slider for monitor, the other for record. thomasabarnes, sorry for not to reading your post thoroughly, after reading Nos402's went straight to quick reply.

Jan 6, 2006, 05:13 AM	Thread Starter #9
Nos402 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20 Rep Power: 0	So every time I think I'm done, I find a new wrinkle! Now I have this dilemma: If I turn down a channel on the MX6 it doesn't turn down the rear volume since rear (6/7) is wired straight to Rear Out on the k1lt. See my DSP screenshot. I have Out 1L/1R= Digital Front (I hook my 4.1 speakers up to the single Digital output on my SB Live) and Out 2L/2R=Rear output. I couldn't think of another way to wire it which would give me playback volume control of a single source in both front and back, and still be able to send 6/7 discreetly to the rear output on the k1lt. One alternative I've found is using the default DSP, with one change: wiring fx 0/1 direct to ASIO 14/15 so I can set tracks in Sonar to ASIO 14/15 to record. I'm understanding more an more each day, but with each level of understanding comes another level of fumbling in the dark not knowing what the hell I'm doing just yet! I have no idea of the pros and cons each of these systems has. Her's the few I do know: Using the screenshot ProFX DSP: Pros- no need to use the kx Mixer (some seem to find that a pro) simpler, cleaner DSP Cons- No single slider to reduce a single source in both front and rear. Using the default DSP with my one mod: Pros- It seems I can do everything that I can do with the other DSP plus Raise the volume in both front/back simultaneously cons- Much more cluttered and complicated Have to use the kx Mixer Oi! Me brain!

Jan 6, 2006, 01:52 PM	#10
miguel DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 209 Rep Power: 0	one possible soulution would be not to use mx6 normal outs at all, but use FX1 send for the front then FX2 send for the rear. Now you can put all your sources (including 6/7) into the MX6 and control as following: Since the sends are post-fader the level fader controls the overall volume of the source, and each FXsend controls how much each source goes to front/rear. Should work fine. regards

Jan 6, 2006, 02:18 PM	Thread Starter #11
Nos402 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 20 Rep Power: 0	Simple and elegant solution, Miguel! Thanks! So I haven't quite figured out the whole "rear speaker" thing completely. Here's where I'm currently at: DSP Screenshot I used Miguel's idea of using Efx 1/2 busses from the MX6 to send F/R to Digital Front/Rear on the k1lt. This is where my knowledge gets fuzzy. To get the speaker test working correctly I sent 4/5 to Send a (Front), and 6/7 to Send B (Rear). Now I tried playing Winamp. I found Winamp plays on 0/1 (as I expected). I want Winamp on all 4 speakers so I sent it to A and B. When I did this the sound got really thin, which I suspected was an out of phase problem, so I inserted the phase module as seen in the screenshot and all seems good. Here's where I'm fuzzy: When I used to use the CL drivers everything always came out of all 4 speakers. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm totally theorizing here based on my observations and experiences. It seems that if something (like a game with environmental sound effects, or gunshots coming from behind you when someone is shooting from behind you)) specifically has surround sound sources they will be routed to 4/5 and 6/7 but if something only has stereo (like winamp) then it takes a special module like surrounder, or a setup like I have (sending to both front and rear with one signal's phase shifted) to get the output in all 4 speakers. Is this correct?