Maddogg6

I made a new P16V routing illustration that (IMHO) better explains the relavence of the KX 24/96 router for A2 cards.

Its a minor change - and I *think* its correct... but I think it could help others.

I made it for inclusion of KX heklp file. -providing its not gonna cause more confusion. It was something that wasn't very clear to me.

http://members.cox.net/md6/10KX2_24_96.jpg

let me know if I made a mistake - I'll fix it.

Russ

From your diagram, it looks as though everything goes through the 24/96 router (even non 24/96 content), is that correct? Where are the AC97 outputs?

In any case, I am just curious, I do not know anything about it (as you know).

Maddogg6

Ok -
AFAIK - ALL inputs get routed into the P16V - (or what ever is selected in KX Mixer main page 'P16V record source' I presume??)
The 24/96 router - then allows switching if its sent to what output(s). - So yes, its correct in that sense. But the original drawing makes no mention of the P16V record source selection.
So, if this can be confirmed or denied - I will make appropriate changes to the drawing.

The AC92 outputs ?? - its shown in the original drawing (see the KX help file Appendix A 'Technical specs' - Audigy2/P16V Signal Flow.
Me thinks this is the AC972 (UDA) ?? that AC97 signals can be routed through and seems like a higher quality codec.
Again, It would be appreciated if someone can confirm this.

edit:

I had left out the AC97 output - because Im not exactly sure HOW its implemeted - Its NOT shown in KX24/96 Router..?? IE - is it paralleling the I2S - or SPDIF..???

Russ

Yeah, I did see the (Audigy2 / P16V Routings) diagram in kX Help, but it didn't show the 24/96 Router block like in your diagram, so I was wondering about that stuff. In any case, we shall see if anyone has any info/corrections, etc.

Maddogg6

Also - if you look at the 'KX SIGNAL FLOW DIAGRAM' - it shows that the AC97 is ONLY connected to inputs and NOT outputs - Thus Im thinking that there IS NO AC97 out on A2's - ?? - its just I2S or SPDIF - or both concurrently.

SUN

Hello Maddogg6,

updates are always welcome... ;-)

Anyone knows the changes in my SB0280 (Audigy 2 Platinum eX)
This has no AC97 in its Case... :-) and no Audio-Connectors on Board...

Noise without Signal Line1-3: -84dB

Greetings,
SUN alias DJ Sunnie

Maddogg6

It would seem sub-sections to the help file with card specific details could be implemented - but my original intent was to illustrate how the KX 24/96 router fits into that disgram. When first getting aqainted with KX - that seemed the most 'mysterious' for a noob like me. So I guess, it is also confirming my understanding of the 24/96 routers role.

Furthermore: If you you could provide diagrams of the connections for your card model - could probably help others out, may inspire new 'mods' or something.. ???

Samir

Good work Maddogg6, i was looking forward for an diagram like yours... We should add AC97 in it (just to make it more complicated)... In few days I'll have more time to spare & we'll try to sort this out...

__________________
MU3NKA 3A HAPO6!

Maddogg6

Thanks Samir,

I more than willing to make it 'complete'.

I would also like to indicate how the switches in the KX mixer are related also. (P16V recording, SPDIF direct record, etc..)

But I dont understand the 'recording' path well enough to accurately include it in that picture.

I also don't *completely* understand how to illustrate the AC97-2 routing.

Maddogg6

I ended up making a more comprehensive drawing - that I think would have helped me out as a noob.

It seems correct by how I understand my cards routings.

But there are probably errors. so WARNING TO NEWBIES: Information has NOT been confirmed.

Its here

Russ

That looks looks pretty good (more logical pathways than the first diagram).

Maddogg6

Its definitly more complete than the first.. hehe , but I'm hoping to get some feedback on its 'correctness'

The AC97-2 part in particular - something seems wrong with my drawing but to change maybe fruitless until its confirmed wrong and some extra knowledge is posted so I can correct properly.

Maddogg6

Update:

I made some changes to this drawing.

I have questions about the P16V record dropdown - it shows 10K2 1; 10K2 2; 10K2 3; - But I dont know what they are..

Other than that....
I think A2ZS Users will find it helpfull - if anyone can describe differences for NON ZS cards - I will include notes - or even make one specific drawing for that card.

Samir

@ Maddogg6 & Russ:

This is becoming more & more complicated! Unfortunately, i'm busier than ever these days... I'll try to make some corrections / updates by the end of the week. I think i understand AC97.2 path as i made some experiments few months ago. Also, i think that A2's input stage is little bit different...

Difference between ZS and non-ZS cards are related to analog outputs only! non-ZS is 6.1 (7 analog outputs), and ZS is 7.1 (or 8.1? = 8 or 9 analog outputs).

__________________
MU3NKA 3A HAPO6!

Maddogg6

OMG - I fixed the HUGE - AC97 routing error -
Anyway - fixed it

Oh and I added KX Synths too.

Edit: I made many changes.

Maddogg6

Ok - this drawing was meant to give a better explanation of some of the settings in the KX mixer that I don't beleive to be PLUGIN/DSP dependant, as well as explain the signal routings.
I beleive it would have helped explain the system as a whole to me as a noob.

I've gone over this drawing several times - and made many changes over time, and as far as I can tell - makes logical sense to how my card acts. -Thus why I labled it for ZS models.
I have gone over it several times, but it does have questions in red text, or things I am un-sure of.

If anyone confirm anything or make corrections - please post them here.

Thanks.

Smiro

Great diagram, very thankfull. Allthought i have some questions that the diagram didn't answer.

1.Between the wave outs 0/1, 4/5, 6/7, 8/9 which one has the best quality with less cpu processing and which one the worst.

I read somewhere in all this knowledge around kx project that wave 0/1 is used for mulichannel output so it takes more of cpu. Does this apply to the default DSP settings or is a hardware thing?

The same question i got for the ASIO outputs, whick one should i use as my master out on cubase for max quality and less cpu?

2.Also i read that ASIO x/y => Wave x/y, but wave 2/3 doesn't exist thought ASIO 2/3 exist. Someone clear this plz.

3. If i use in my winamp say wave HQ out and put in the DSP i have attacheed the p1v module wired to the mixer, will that give me better sound and less cpu on wavesound playback?



4. Settings/setup buffers, what is this utitlity for exactly ? ASIO ?

5.If i use Wave HQ how can i pass the signal through my dsp and mantain 24/96 quality?
Using the p16v output where i got now the Asio/Wave in 6/7 without changing nothing else at the dsp will give me 24/94 playback? Assuming that in the 24/96 router the only open link is from 10k2-->i2s outs.


To be short, here is my dsp settings attached as inage and as a file, where i have some automations using midi of the front and rear volumes and the signal from stereo to mono. Plz give me opinion!

According to this DSP, i use Asio 4/5 as master out of cubase, secondary Cubase output Asio 8/9 and default output for windows and winamp wave out 6/7. Deafult recording is wave 0/1, couldn't change that and didn't want to mess with wave HQ. Btw i have set the device to 16/48 (8&8).

PS: A bug in 3538j is that i cannot right click in the empty space of the DSP.



[color=#232d35]http://s63.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3...I1NTL4JXYZZO60 [/color]



Driver Version: 5.10.00.3538 - debug
DB Name:none
SB0244 10k2 [d800]
PCI Information:
Device: 41102 Subsys: 10071102 ChipRev: 4
Card is '10k2'
Card has MPU device
Card model is '5.1'
Card is Audigy2-compatible
Card HAS AC97 codec
Codec name: SigmaTel STAC9721/23
3D Extension: SigmaTel 3D Enhancement
Codec is 2.0 compliant
Capabilities[6940] :
DAC resolutions : -16-bit- -18-bit-
ADC resolutions : -16-bit- -18-bit-
Ext Capabilities [200]: -slot/DAC mappings-
Port: d800 Irq: 0x5(5)
Playback buffer: 20a0
Record buffer: 4000
Number of AC3 buffers: 4
Tank memory: 256 kb
GSIF buffer: 256 samples
OS version: [2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 156 148]
----------------------------------------------------

dj_stick

ASIO shares the fxbus with wave, so some will match up, some won't

check the kX Router for the assignments of each channel

__________________

Russ

That bug is carried over from 3538i (3538i Bug Reports thread (post #36)).

To fix:
Close any open kX windows.
Check (enable) "Show window content while dragging" in kX settings.

Smiro

Thanks Russ that worked. How bout the other questions of my post? Someone plz answer.

Thanx in advance for your time.

Maddogg6

Thank you - But keep in mind, It is here *mostly* for getting corrections. And then when 100% right, would then be included with the KX help file. I'M NO EXPERT!

To be sure, I'll have to load a sonar project - use winnMM, with many audio tracks and make note of the CPU difference. But up till now I havent 'heard' any differences.
Now keep in mind, this project started out for Live cards, then A2's were added. Lives have 2 diffeent codecs for the front and rears - A2's are not this was. By default (with default DSP) WAVE 0/1 and Wave 4/5 is routed through Front (but is swapped with the SWAP FRONT REAR switch in KX mixer) the other are routed to potentiallay the 'other' codecs. So some of the info in the knowledge base is not appliciple to A2's
Changing the DSP changes that also.

If WAV 0/1 is the only one capable of AC3 decoding (now that I think about it, I think you are right) - I will change the diagram to relfect this - I will also test this/look into further. again - the reason I made this diagram was to do exacly this, collect info for an updated help file for A2's. These questions will lead to corrections to the diagram - so thank you.

I dont see any differences personally with WHAT ASIO X/X uses less CPU, nor do I hear any quality differences.

This IS DSP configuration dependant.
Wave 2/3 is the MIDI synths - The Wave 4/5; 6/7; 8/9 - are names to represent how they connect to the outputs. FRONT, C/LFE/ & REARS. It took me a while to understand the reason for this also. Although the WAVE device names dont change - I beleive this stems from MANY changes to KX Driver over time. And originally for 10K1 cards like the Live/ APS.

Wave HQ - being responsible for BYPASSING the dsp (which WILL convert to 16/48) - will allow 24/96 to be output. MP3's dont usualy come in this format, so while I may hear a slight difference - it could be more psychological ??

What I do that I *think* sounds better - is to use a winamp SRC (resample up to 24/96) and use waveHQ - but avoide the DSP (add eq with out the DSP) - to me this sounds significantly better than using wave X/X. But its definitly less stable for winamp, and uses more CPU.

The only real usefull setting I can tell is the 'TANK MEMORY SIZE' with is the ammount of 'XTRAM' seen in the DSP - by default its 256K - I set mine to 2M - for longer/more DELAYS. Not really all used, but I;'ve been trying my hand in making delay plugins with dane and didnt want to exceed the XTRAM usage - But Ive never even got close to using it all.
But potentially adjusting other buffers could help with some problems in some PC configurations/card models.

1- YOU CANT PASS 24/96 through the DSP and KEEP 24/96 - the DSP (hardware level) converts to 16/48 first.
2 - 24/96 playback is sent parallel to the DSP AND P16V (Via the 24/96 Router) - to get (or better to say 'hear') 26/96 - uncheck the switch for 10k2>I2S (is using analog speakers) or the 10k2>SPDIF (if using digital speakers) - to prevent hearing the DSP processesing this and getting MIXED at the output. - This is how I understand it, and I could be wrong - as I dont have the means of anaysing the output - you will note that 24/96 content will be LOWER volumes - which would make sense condidering how it would convert to 16/48 - loosing dynamic range compared to th original 26/96.


Looks like its tailored to suit your needs - THE BEST thing about KX is that ability.
Personally I like using MIXY4x2 for converting stereo to mono - for the 1 reason of ability to use KX automation to adjust its 'PAN' (effectivly its a 8/2 mixer when used in mono, but is flexible enough for use with stereo as well)

I have a few DSP configs - based on what Im doing - 1 for TV (using prologica to upmix stereo to 5 channels) - another for DVD playback (using P16V sending DD dceoded - directly OR through DSP to down mix to my 4 speaker set up - basically I have descent FRONT monitors for DAW, and crappy ones for the rear, using DSP I can get a really good sound from this set up) - another for DAW - which is quite complex (I start out with this) and ususally add connections - but I do alot with MIDI to start with - then add audio to it - I have a few configs that are SONG / Sonar Project dependant and save the DSP config with that project - but I start out with that.

Wave HQ has NOTHING to do with ASIO - The 'master port' stuff (AFAIK) is for syncronizing multiple tracks/outputs (OR to assign the MASTER BUSS in a mixer, as opposed to a MONITOR for performers to hear while recording) - as for quality differences, mentioned in the KX docs/knowledgebase/help file - I beleive are more related to the output codecs I mentioned above.

Dont get congused by how the DEFAULT dsp connected ASIO 0/1 with wave 0/1 - in your DSP this doesnt seem to be true.


Also keep in mind - I have changed my KX router so that Synth 1 and 2 DO NOT share the same FXBUSS - as well as changing what FXBUSS MIDI CC16/17/18/19 outputs rout to.

Maddogg6

I changed the drawing to reflect that WAV0/1 is used for AC3/Multichannel.

Maddogg6

I DO have other questions - like WHERE should the SRC be placed in this drawing?? Does the P16V ALWAYS get fed 24/96 - AFTER the SRC?

Because wave 0/1 can play just about any format up to 24/192 - is the same SRC shared - or can WAVE 0/ and WAVE HQ SRC be used at the same time??

Im hoping the ones in the know will add/suggest changes to be more technically correct - This IS ALL based on how I understand how its all works 'FUNCTIONALLY' - there are probably technical mistakes in it.
But even questions about it, will force me in 'looking at it again' and thus catch these mistakes with out the more knowledgable ones input..

Russ

@smiro
There is no wave (2/3). I think you meant FxBus(2/3). Do not confuse the FxBus numbers with kX Wave devices and ASIO. Under the default settings the kX wave devices and ASIO devices are numbered one to one with the FxBus numbers, but they are not the same thing, and can be re-ordered using kX Router.

@Maddogg6
Not all Live models use 2 codecs to achieve 5.1 sound. My card for instance uses a single 6 channel codec.

Smiro

Maddog your reply has been more than helpfull m8, i really appreciate!
It really left me with no other questions or doubts bout my setup and kx generally, thanks again !

To continue this discussion i checked recentlly the kx and sonar guide and the writer also uses ASIO 4/5 , 6/7 , 8/9 which as i figured out from your replies and some more readin on the kx knowledgebase, gives the same result as using ASIOs 0/1, 2/3, 4/5, in quality and perfomance based.

Allthought about the wave 0/1 i still have doubts upon when using it in custom DSPs it needs more SPU power.


About the synth outs, i don't really use synth function in kx (never tried it to be honest), and my DSP is as simpliest as possible cause i use VST effects in cubase so i do the routing of sends and grouping in there, i kinda trust my waves FXs more than the kx plugins in matter of quality of sound.
And of course in my audio host the sound is processed internally in 32 bits throught the effects.

Oh, am i right about that? i mean i set the ASIO on 16/48 but my cubase projects are set in 32/48, so that means that internal processing of effects and VSTs happens in 32 bits right?

And if that happens, what will i gain with 24/48 ASIO supported by kx drivers?

WaveHQ i also won't be needing it since i rarelly record my guitar in the pc, all other stuff is virtually produced!

Maddogg6

No problem - it would helped me in the beginning too - probably some more too - I find 'writing' it all out helps enfocre my knowledge in general - and figured others could benifit from it as well. -But Im sure theres some errors in it somewhere..

I do beleive Wav 0/1 WILL use more resources than the other Wave X/X - because of the multichannel stuff. But i dont hear any real difference - no see a big difference in performace.

Too bad - thats like half the reason for me to use KX over CL. Notice the 6 effect sends in my DSP (reverb CC#91, Chorus CC#93, Delay B CC#16, Phasor CC#17, Flange CC#18, Slapback delay CC#19) - NOT possible with CL drivers - and for the KX Synths to use practically zero resources... its pretty powerful and VERY flexible. But I do have soft synths as well.

Yes - you are STILL benifitting fron the INTERNAL FLOATING POINT MATH of 32 bit - even tho its all converted to 16/48.

additional 'HEADROOM' or dynamic range. Frequency response would be about the same.

I use wave HQ only to test 24/96 recording - but I do use it for most playback in winamp, WMP, Foobar2000 - its set as my windows default playback device - so its used as default when I dont have the option to change the device used.