How difficult is 3d engine programming?

ToshiroOC · Jul 2, 2002, 10:38 PM

Some of my friends and I want to start programming games, and we have a dispute that the informed and educated people of the forum might be able to answer - I believe that it would be possible to make our own proprietary 3d engine/editor using only free time over 3 years, while another friend of mine thinks that I'm utterly insane to think that we could even start to comprehend any 3d programming from where we are, which is very fluent in a lot of programming languages useless for this task (ti-82 basic/asm anyone? and vb and python and all sorts of languages that will never end up being used in a 3d engine...) and enough c++ to make simple MSDOS programs. Anyone have any good solid idea about how hard it would be to make an entire 3d engine (definitely NOT something on a doomIII level, but hopefully a bit beyond quake2) from scratch, and do you think it would be possible with an estimated 3000-4000 man-hours of work? Thanks to anyone who responds...

ToshiroOC

Impulse · Jul 5, 2002, 03:43 AM

[SIZE=x-small]Game Programming is very hard. You need to know a lot of knowlede, as I recall an article about Game Programming, DirectX API, OpenGL Win32 Programming (Depends), C++, etc. You cannot create a game engine w/o any of such knowledge of hard Programming languages, if you wanna get started on one, you could either purchase a game engine like ID Software's Q1, Doom, etc. So just basically the stuff you need to know about Game Programming. And its really hard and thats where paitiance comes in.[/SIZE]

UberLord · Jul 5, 2002, 03:56 AM

Why must developers constantly re-invent the wheel?

You want to make you're own engine - kudos if you can do it. Personally, I'd download the Quake 2 GPL source code and start building a game on that

Impulse · Jul 6, 2002, 08:49 AM

[SIZE=x-small]Work on a Game MOD first, then you can get used to the basic Game/Programming itself. Quake 3, Half-Life, Dungeon Siege MODS. Just a thought

[/SIZE]

digitalwanderer · Jul 6, 2002, 09:17 AM

I definately agree with all the people telling you to make a couple of mods first or to download Q2 and modify the hell out of that. It's free to make a game using the Q2 engine...as long as you don't charge for it. The Carmack is just too cool for words. ("All praises and big ups to the Carmack!")

Building a 3D game engine from scratch is an insanely difficult task to undertake, don't have any preconceived notions of it being otherwise going into it! 3000-4000 manhours might sound like a lot, but Q2 took more like 30k-40k manhours! (I'm just wild-assed guessing here, but I know it was a goodly sized team working over a number of years...and that was with a decade of 3D engine building under their belts already!)

Dude, you SO seriously don't want to try and undertake that if'n you're ever hoping to get a functioning game out some day. Get your buds together and make a total conversion mod first just to get an idea of what you're getting yourself into.

I've always wanted to do some level design myself, but I'm still waiting for that "as time allows" thing to kick in.

DallasStar · Jul 6, 2002, 09:07 PM

If it just "you and a couple of friends" with experience in other programming that is not related to game engine programming, I'd say your best bet would be to read that Quake source code and get a good feel for the code by modifying it and experimenting (and get a guide of some sort to help you if you need it). Then, aim for 5 years. You'd need a larger team for just 3 years.

just in case anyone cares:

In my 3rd year highschool AP Computer Science class, we'll be making a game engine (and games to go with it of course). It supposed to be pretty high level. Up to the level of Tribes and the likes. I'm not quite sure if we're going to build it from scratch or just continue from the work of others (the latter being more likely).

HsuGotaQ · Jul 7, 2002, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ToshiroOC
... while another friend of mine thinks that I'm utterly insane to think that we could even start to comprehend any 3d programming from where we are, which is very fluent in a lot of programming languages useless for this task (ti-82 basic/asm anyone? and vb and python and all sorts of languages that will never end up being used in a 3d engine...) and enough c++ to make simple MSDOS programs.

You need at least a good knowledge of 3D programmation in order to properly start a 3D game engine development from scratch. Just the game design (not coding) will take you at least a good 8 months (an estimate based on your present coding knowledge). The fact that you guys will not be giving 100% of your time on this won't help either. Like pretty much everybody else said, start by making mods before hand to comprehend the structure and logic of modern game engines. This will probably save you years of programming. Good luck.

HsuGotaQ · Jul 7, 2002, 11:25 PM

Oh.... forgot this.

If you are to program from scratch and need some help or pointers, i'd suggest (if necessary or helpful) to check out some OpenGL tutorials over at NeHe Productions. They have been pretty usefull for me in the last 4 months.

- http://nehe.gamedev.net/

Dalik · Apr 30, 2003, 11:26 PM

I am gussing you dont have any experience with making games. The problem I see with your situation is this.

You have no experience with making anything game relation on the graphics side. You have friends that are interested and you say you know a bunch of languages. With a 3d game engine you will need advanced maths. From trig, to calc, to a few others. You will also need a background in physics. If you got all that, or working on it then, yes its possible. You should be able to load a BSP level and run around with some ugly weapons and some bad guys. It should only take you a few months.

What I would do is start with some 2d programming, its a lot easier and you will get stuff done and done fast, so you feel like your getting somewhere. For one you will get an idea how games work, and you will know you have "completed" a game or two. Depending on the API you wanna use. Get a book on that topic and start reading.

Its not easy and you will get mad at times, but its fun. But depending on how you wanna go, I wish you the best and goto www.gamedev.net

I think these API's are good to use
SDL (2d, input, sound) also has helper libs for more sound and graphic loading, also network play.
opengl ( 3d )

you can use opengl in SDL also.

Good luck

UberLord · May 1, 2003, 03:47 PM

Did you ever get started on this Toshiro?

Area_51 · May 1, 2003, 09:45 PM

Something about programing games and team

1. You must have a good team: programer 2-3, artist (more is better), voice and sound maneger and ....
2. If you are trying to make a game 3D engine and if you area begginer in that thing is better that you start in OpenGl.
3. A lot of knowladge like most of them said.
4. Lot of time and good nerves.

First make a good 2d engine than go to bad 3d engine and then make a really, really good 3d engine.

This are my advices, at leaset in Slovenia (not SLovakia) some teams that I know they are doing on that way.

Anyway good luck at programing

ToshiroOC · May 1, 2003, 10:40 PM

The friends I was planning to work with on this gave up (coughcowardscough) so I've been sorta dabbling around on my own. Once summer starts I'll have plenty of time and at the very least try to get a decent 2d game done. I haven't directly started programming this yet, but I have written a few other small things to practice

Dalik · May 1, 2003, 10:44 PM

I heard OpenGL was a lot easeir to program for and another tip, write out your ideas on paper and make flow charts. This will make everything much clearer for you and it also makes you see your design on paper, that means it might work in your head but not on paper etc..

ToshiroOC · May 1, 2003, 10:49 PM

Thanks everyone for the help

I have flowcharted a couple of programs before, I love doing blackboxing where I just draw an arrow into a function block, write what the input and output is, and then figuring out what fits in the function without having to worry too much about the whole picture

daffy · May 27, 2003, 03:35 PM

opengl is all about maths baby

Private Pyle · Jul 11, 2003, 04:05 PM

Writing ur own engine is madness when there are so many around, even for high level languages such as Delphi

Jul 2, 2002, 10:38 PM	#1
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	How difficult is 3d engine programming? Some of my friends and I want to start programming games, and we have a dispute that the informed and educated people of the forum might be able to answer - I believe that it would be possible to make our own proprietary 3d engine/editor using only free time over 3 years, while another friend of mine thinks that I'm utterly insane to think that we could even start to comprehend any 3d programming from where we are, which is very fluent in a lot of programming languages useless for this task (ti-82 basic/asm anyone? and vb and python and all sorts of languages that will never end up being used in a 3d engine...) and enough c++ to make simple MSDOS programs. Anyone have any good solid idea about how hard it would be to make an entire 3d engine (definitely NOT something on a doomIII level, but hopefully a bit beyond quake2) from scratch, and do you think it would be possible with an estimated 3000-4000 man-hours of work? Thanks to anyone who responds... ToshiroOC __________________ [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Jul 5, 2002, 03:56 AM	#3
UberLord A Legend in Underwear Join Date: May 2002 Location: Unknown Posts: 5,255 Rep Power: 0	Why must developers constantly re-invent the wheel? You want to make you're own engine - kudos if you can do it. Personally, I'd download the Quake 2 GPL source code and start building a game on that __________________ Gentoo Linux - Developer (baselayout) Read my blog "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts

Jul 6, 2002, 09:17 AM	#5
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,619 Rep Power: 0	Mod first. I definately agree with all the people telling you to make a couple of mods first or to download Q2 and modify the hell out of that. It's free to make a game using the Q2 engine...as long as you don't charge for it. The Carmack is just too cool for words. ("All praises and big ups to the Carmack!") Building a 3D game engine from scratch is an insanely difficult task to undertake, don't have any preconceived notions of it being otherwise going into it! 3000-4000 manhours might sound like a lot, but Q2 took more like 30k-40k manhours! (I'm just wild-assed guessing here, but I know it was a goodly sized team working over a number of years...and that was with a decade of 3D engine building under their belts already!) Dude, you SO seriously don't want to try and undertake that if'n you're ever hoping to get a functioning game out some day. Get your buds together and make a total conversion mod first just to get an idea of what you're getting yourself into. I've always wanted to do some level design myself, but I'm still waiting for that "as time allows" thing to kick in. __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Jul 6, 2002, 09:07 PM	#6
DallasStar Junior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Wave Existence Posts: 2,065 Rep Power: 0	If it just "you and a couple of friends" with experience in other programming that is not related to game engine programming, I'd say your best bet would be to read that Quake source code and get a good feel for the code by modifying it and experimenting (and get a guide of some sort to help you if you need it). Then, aim for 5 years. You'd need a larger team for just 3 years. just in case anyone cares: In my 3rd year highschool AP Computer Science class, we'll be making a game engine (and games to go with it of course). It supposed to be pretty high level. Up to the level of Tribes and the likes. I'm not quite sure if we're going to build it from scratch or just continue from the work of others (the latter being more likely). __________________ "A picture of my existence... would show a useless wooden stake covered in snow... stuck loosely at a slant in the ground in a ploughed field on the edge of a vast open plain on a dark winter night." --- Franz Kafka

May 1, 2003, 03:47 PM	#10
UberLord A Legend in Underwear Join Date: May 2002 Location: Unknown Posts: 5,255 Rep Power: 0	Did you ever get started on this Toshiro? __________________ Gentoo Linux - Developer (baselayout) Read my blog "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts

Jul 5, 2002, 03:43 AM	#2
Impulse l33t Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 248 Rep Power: 0	[SIZE=x-small]Game Programming is very hard. You need to know a lot of knowlede, as I recall an article about Game Programming, DirectX API, OpenGL Win32 Programming (Depends), C++, etc. You cannot create a game engine w/o any of such knowledge of hard Programming languages, if you wanna get started on one, you could either purchase a game engine like ID Software's Q1, Doom, etc. So just basically the stuff you need to know about Game Programming. And its really hard and thats where paitiance comes in.[/SIZE]

Jul 6, 2002, 08:49 AM	#4
Impulse l33t Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 248 Rep Power: 0	[SIZE=x-small]Work on a Game MOD first, then you can get used to the basic Game/Programming itself. Quake 3, Half-Life, Dungeon Siege MODS. Just a thought [/SIZE]

Jul 7, 2002, 11:25 PM	#8
HsuGotaQ Hydrogenated Dumbass Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canuckland Posts: 755 Rep Power: 0	Oh.... forgot this. If you are to program from scratch and need some help or pointers, i'd suggest (if necessary or helpful) to check out some OpenGL tutorials over at NeHe Productions. They have been pretty usefull for me in the last 4 months. - http://nehe.gamedev.net/

Apr 30, 2003, 11:26 PM	#9
Dalik DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Midway City, California Posts: 22 Rep Power: 0	I am gussing you dont have any experience with making games. The problem I see with your situation is this. You have no experience with making anything game relation on the graphics side. You have friends that are interested and you say you know a bunch of languages. With a 3d game engine you will need advanced maths. From trig, to calc, to a few others. You will also need a background in physics. If you got all that, or working on it then, yes its possible. You should be able to load a BSP level and run around with some ugly weapons and some bad guys. It should only take you a few months. What I would do is start with some 2d programming, its a lot easier and you will get stuff done and done fast, so you feel like your getting somewhere. For one you will get an idea how games work, and you will know you have "completed" a game or two. Depending on the API you wanna use. Get a book on that topic and start reading. Its not easy and you will get mad at times, but its fun. But depending on how you wanna go, I wish you the best and goto www.gamedev.net I think these API's are good to use SDL (2d, input, sound) also has helper libs for more sound and graphic loading, also network play. opengl ( 3d ) you can use opengl in SDL also. Good luck

May 1, 2003, 09:45 PM	#11
Area_51 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: May 2003 Location: Slovenia, Koper Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	Something about programing games and team 1. You must have a good team: programer 2-3, artist (more is better), voice and sound maneger and .... 2. If you are trying to make a game 3D engine and if you area begginer in that thing is better that you start in OpenGl. 3. A lot of knowladge like most of them said. 4. Lot of time and good nerves. First make a good 2d engine than go to bad 3d engine and then make a really, really good 3d engine. This are my advices, at leaset in Slovenia (not SLovakia) some teams that I know they are doing on that way. Anyway good luck at programing __________________ ATI, Is the One

May 1, 2003, 10:40 PM	Thread Starter #12
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	The friends I was planning to work with on this gave up (coughcowardscough) so I've been sorta dabbling around on my own. Once summer starts I'll have plenty of time and at the very least try to get a decent 2d game done. I haven't directly started programming this yet, but I have written a few other small things to practice __________________ [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

May 1, 2003, 10:44 PM	#13
Dalik DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Midway City, California Posts: 22 Rep Power: 0	I heard OpenGL was a lot easeir to program for and another tip, write out your ideas on paper and make flow charts. This will make everything much clearer for you and it also makes you see your design on paper, that means it might work in your head but not on paper etc..

May 1, 2003, 10:49 PM	Thread Starter #14
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	Thanks everyone for the help I have flowcharted a couple of programs before, I love doing blackboxing where I just draw an arrow into a function block, write what the input and output is, and then figuring out what fits in the function without having to worry too much about the whole picture __________________ [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

May 27, 2003, 03:35 PM	#15
daffy DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: BRUSSELS Posts: 17 Rep Power: 0	opengl is all about maths baby __________________ Heaven doesn't want me and hell is afraid i'll take over.

Jul 11, 2003, 04:05 PM	#16
Private Pyle DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Bedford England Posts: 15 Rep Power: 0	Writing ur own engine is madness when there are so many around, even for high level languages such as Delphi __________________