3dm2k3's new policy; WHQL or official drivers only, NO MORE CHEATING!

digitalwanderer · Mar 24, 2003, 04:44 PM

YES!!!

There's a blurb at Futuremark about how they have disabled (at least for the time being) all current submitted results using the questionable drivers, Detonator 42.67, 42.68 and 42.69.

Gratuitous blurb that I loved:

Quote:

The reason for this is that the drivers have been officially stated as optimized for 3DMark03, and we can not verify the purity and integrity of the drivers. We are investigating the drivers and their effect on 3DMark03 - both performance and the rendering quality (ie. image quality).

Credit goes to galperi1 over at R3D for his post about it and for giving me the opportunity to point it out to the folks at nVnews. (It should provide for a fun afternoon of arguing.

)

Erroneus · Mar 24, 2003, 05:42 PM

Nice enough, no more shitty optimized 3dmark drivers from Nvidia sacrifising quality

but isn't easy to cheat about what driver version your using...

Zardon · Mar 24, 2003, 06:00 PM

about time that happened.

Zardon · Mar 24, 2003, 06:01 PM

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...dmark03_8.html

Quote:

First of all, we should congratulate NVIDIA and the company’s software developers. Their 42.68 drivers helped GeForceFX 5800 Ultra based card to outrun its main rival, RADEON 9700 PRO nearly in all the tests and resolutions. We won’t say anything about the price-to-performance ratio of the two leaders in the current graphics card market, as the price of GeForceFX 5800 Ultra has not yet been finalized. You can only be sure that it’s going to be VERY expensive.

~~Asuka~~ · Mar 24, 2003, 06:54 PM

It really was already high noon they did something about nVidia's foul cheating! After they realized that their GeFarce FX sucks donkey balls and they're too stupid to do something about it the ordinary way, they started with this foul behavior as a last resort... how shameful!

Zardon · Mar 24, 2003, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka
After they realized that their GeFarce FX sucks donkey balls and they're too stupid to do something about it the ordinary way

lol, next time stop sitting on the fence man, say what you mean !!!

~~shai~~ · Mar 24, 2003, 06:56 PM

why does it realy matter nvidia gets the worst marks anyway...

shuki · Mar 24, 2003, 07:04 PM

but somehow nvidia will come out looking alright. they always seem to end up on top somehow... remember that inquirer article about nforce mobo's and they were blaming mobo mfgr's on this BIOS freeze issue and laid no blame on nvidia's doorstep...

*CATALYST maker* · Mar 24, 2003, 07:16 PM

And at this point CATALYST MAKER jumps up and down with joy, and declares to the world that

"ALL CATALYST POSTINGS WILL BE WHQL CERTIFIED, AND THEY WILL BE POSTED 10 TIMES A YEAR"

and walks off in the sunset......

riles9262 · Mar 24, 2003, 07:21 PM

sleazy buggers...its their fault if their new hi perf card licks balls...they knew what ati brought to the table for many months b4 they released their fx...they shouldnt have to sink to this level to ensure hi scores...

riles9262 · Mar 24, 2003, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CATALYST maker
And at this point CATALYST MAKER jumps up and down with joy, and declares to the world that

"ALL CATALYST POSTINGS WILL BE WHQL CERTIFIED, AND THEY WILL BE POSTED 10 TIMES A YEAR"

and walks off in the sunset......

amen CM, amen

shuki · Mar 24, 2003, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CATALYST maker
And at this point CATALYST MAKER jumps up and down with joy, and declares to the world that

"ALL CATALYST POSTINGS WILL BE WHQL CERTIFIED, AND THEY WILL BE POSTED 10 TIMES A YEAR"

and walks off in the sunset......

ROTFL

digitalwanderer · Mar 24, 2003, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CATALYST maker
And at this point CATALYST MAKER jumps up and down with joy, and declares to the world that

"ALL CATALYST POSTINGS WILL BE WHQL CERTIFIED, AND THEY WILL BE POSTED 10 TIMES A YEAR"

and walks off in the sunset......

Da CatalystMaker is da man!

riles9262 · Mar 24, 2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
Da CatalystMaker is da man!

i second that!

~~Asuka~~ · Mar 24, 2003, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by CATALYST maker
And at this point CATALYST MAKER jumps up and down with joy, and declares to the world that

"ALL CATALYST POSTINGS WILL BE WHQL CERTIFIED, AND THEY WILL BE POSTED 10 TIMES A YEAR"

and walks off in the sunset......

At which point nVidia is ultimatively hopelessly lost... they could only reconsider their target market and sell their GeForce FX to Rap bands: "Yo, nVidia, bring the noise!"

Chaos · Mar 24, 2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CATALYST maker
And at this point CATALYST MAKER jumps up and down with joy, and declares to the world that

"ALL CATALYST POSTINGS WILL BE WHQL CERTIFIED, AND THEY WILL BE POSTED 10 TIMES A YEAR"

and walks off in the sunset......

hummm sounding pretty cocky for a dude who's company released the Rage chipset!!!!

Yes ATi is kickin' butt ATM but so is the USA, only time will provide the real truth

And just incase your curious I own an ATi card and the USA is my next door neighbour......

hehehehe I just felt rebellious and needed a place to vent my frustration, or I have read to many of DIGI's rant's and thought I'd join in on this one

Matth · Mar 24, 2003, 08:40 PM

Aiming for **WHQL DRIVERS ONLY**

Now that is NOT a great move, since tweaked/tuned drivers are a valid facet of graphics benchmarking.

The obvious answer, would be to make some quality tests part of the main benchmark, or to confine any nonstandard setups to a second "open" section.

If 16 bits improves the speed, with a qulity loss noticeable only on static image comparison, then it is a valid method of improvimg performance.

~~Optimummind~~ · Mar 25, 2003, 12:24 AM

Those who are slamming nVIDIA are absolute morons. nVIDIA didn't even play a role in the 3DMark03 fiasco. So what if their BETA drivers got leaked? It wasn't their official or WHQL'ed drivers that were under suspicion. nVIDIA reps didn't tout anything about those BETAs. I'm surprised even Zardon is making such stupid comments.

Soloboy · Mar 25, 2003, 12:53 AM

I had to sign up on the forum just to get in on this.

I gotta agree with Optimummind. These are there beta drivers. The ones they have in their lab and try out all sorts of different settings on. Its not like these were ever officaly released or even endorsed by nvidia. For all you know nvidia was just experimenting with other settings and just lowered the quality so it was easier to determine how well other optimizations work by making benchmarks less gpu limited. Experimenting isnt a bad thing at all.

Besides I dont remember anyone getting this worked up even when ATI released drivers for the 8500 that had a SPECIFIC reference to Quake3 so that it could lower the image quality.

Whats worse? ATI making a specific references to a game in order affect quality/performance or some leaked beta drivers that probaly arent even for public use useing some different settings?

Not to mention the slew of problems ATI drivers have had in the past. If I'm not mistaken the lastest Catalyst 3.2 causes games that run on the Half-life engine to lock up.

Im not saying Nvidia is great and ATI sucks. God knows that the Det 40's atleast had some issues. I also believe that the 9700/9800 is superior to the GFX and that the GFX was a dissapointment.

Like they say "He who has no sins may cast the first stone"

Soloboy

BWX · Mar 25, 2003, 01:57 AM

I liked Nvidia BEFORE the GFFX debacle, I think that is about the time they turned into a good company /w a good product/DRIVERS into a company that grew complacent w/ their success of the GFti series and earlier cards.

Now they are embarassed and were/are trying to 'cheat' to save face w/ the optimized drivers for 3DMark03 (which they KNEW would be leaked). let's not turn into a bunch of OSTRICHES!

They are still a good company that works hard (especially in the driver department) which I appreciate. The next year will really show what Nvidia is made of.

I believe FutureMark had every right to pull the scores, the drivers were obviously a "cheat" in a way. Although it does make my wonder if they are in kahoots w/ ATI on other levels.

digitalwanderer · Mar 25, 2003, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soloboy
I had to sign up on the forum just to get in on this.

I gotta agree with Optimummind. These are there beta drivers. The ones they have in their lab and try out all sorts of different settings on. Its not like these were ever officaly released or even endorsed by nvidia. For all you know nvidia was just experimenting with other settings and just lowered the quality so it was easier to determine how well other optimizations work by making benchmarks less gpu limited. Experimenting isnt a bad thing at all.

Besides I dont remember anyone getting this worked up even when ATI released drivers for the 8500 that had a SPECIFIC reference to Quake3 so that it could lower the image quality.

Whats worse? ATI making a specific references to a game in order affect quality/performance or some leaked beta drivers that probaly arent even for public use useing some different settings?

Not to mention the slew of problems ATI drivers have had in the past. If I'm not mistaken the lastest Catalyst 3.2 causes games that run on the Half-life engine to lock up.

Im not saying Nvidia is great and ATI sucks. God knows that the Det 40's atleast had some issues. I also believe that the 9700/9800 is superior to the GFX and that the GFX was a dissapointment.

Like they say "He who has no sins may cast the first stone"

Soloboy

One problem with that......these sets WERE the ones that nVidia was pushing the review sites to use......

The_Neon_Cowboy · Mar 25, 2003, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
YES!!!

There's a blurb at Futuremark about how they have disabled (at least for the time being) all current submitted results using the questionable drivers, Detonator 42.67, 42.68 and 42.69.

Gratuitous blurb that I loved:

Credit goes to galperi1 over at R3D for his post about it and for giving me the opportunity to point it out to the folks at nVnews. (It should provide for a fun afternoon of arguing. )

so doesthat mean they better ban drivers most drivers? ATI and Nvidia optumze for 3dmark in one way or anther it just a matter of who gets cought ... last time it was ati on 3dmark2001/SE/quake 3 etc... that got cought cheating so this means so very little to me...

some info on the old quake 3 cheating...
http://www4.tomshardware.com/blurb/2...s_ati_cheating

I frgot were I fond the artical on how to mod 3dmark2001/se to do the same things....

The_Neon_Cowboy · Mar 25, 2003, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soloboy
I had to sign up on the forum just to get in on this.

I gotta agree with Optimummind. These are there beta drivers. The ones they have in their lab and try out all sorts of different settings on. Its not like these were ever officaly released or even endorsed by nvidia. For all you know nvidia was just experimenting with other settings and just lowered the quality so it was easier to determine how well other optimizations work by making benchmarks less gpu limited. Experimenting isnt a bad thing at all.

Besides I dont remember anyone getting this worked up even when ATI released drivers for the 8500 that had a SPECIFIC reference to Quake3 so that it could lower the image quality.

Whats worse? ATI making a specific references to a game in order affect quality/performance or some leaked beta drivers that probaly arent even for public use useing some different settings?

Not to mention the slew of problems ATI drivers have had in the past. If I'm not mistaken the lastest Catalyst 3.2 causes games that run on the Half-life engine to lock up.

Im not saying Nvidia is great and ATI sucks. God knows that the Det 40's atleast had some issues. I also believe that the 9700/9800 is superior to the GFX and that the GFX was a dissapointment.

Like they say "He who has no sins may cast the first stone"

Soloboy

I would like to add on my radeon 64mb ddr vivo I was forced to stop gameing on it after needing new driver to play games ad the new drivers would couse lockups etc... in all direct x games/open gl games .the thing even crahes in 3dmark2001/2003 ... I sent the card back to ati and they said it's fine so I bet it has to be the drivers..... since it had the same problem in three diffrent computers... that what promted me to by nvidia in the first place I hadn't bought an nvidia since tnt2 m64's came out ... I sould countless ati in the past and talked many that were poised to by nvidia geforces to buy ati radeons.. upintill last year and my problems started than I bought nvida since not had a problem and was unable to get it remedyed though ati. So now I see in the middle as I watch the ati and nvidia fanboys argue it out. I am not that biast as I dont like ati or nvida but they have the top cards. I am bist about the unrealyability of 3dmark 2003 .... whos scores are more than questionable in the firstplace ... one example I just ran into here.... when i upgraded my computer the other day and lost 3dmarks but moveing ahead to some of the latest and greatest

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/showthre...926#post107926

~~Optimummind~~ · Mar 25, 2003, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
One problem with that......these sets WERE the ones that nVidia was pushing the review sites to use......

What sites, Dig? Back it up!

digitalwanderer · Mar 25, 2003, 02:54 PM

Seriously? Ok, I'll go hunt down some links.

Zardon · Mar 25, 2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Optimummind
nVIDIA reps didn't tout anything about those BETAs. I'm surprised even Zardon is making such stupid comments.

stupid comments? excuse me?

I own several nvidia cards so I would hardly feel that im biased, do you own an ATI card as well as the Nvidia in your signature to verify your open mindedness in this debate or are you just blindly defending the company who make your card?

when review sites including the one posted on the front page http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...dmark03_8.html , along with hardocp originally had the geforce FX they compared the performance with the Radeon 9700. They were supplied the 42.67 and scores rose through the roof. if you havent already seen this then I advise you check again.

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDI4LDQ=

I mean how are we to bench the comparitive results of our cards anymore, shall we all lower settings to 16 bit to get a fair result or shall one company have an unfair advantage because its obviously producing inferior hardware? Futuremark are now aware of this and have restricted the uploading of scores using these drivers. Because its cheating. and im sorry if you dont like my comments but they are facts. pure and simple. If ati starting changing driver sets, lowering IQ or colour depth to increase benchmarks today then I would also post the same comments. I like the truth, not bullshit.

its not only underhanded its attempting to fool people, and its insulting our intelligence and my main problem with this is. we arent stupid.

I have held back with alot of behind the scenes information, perhaps if you push me, ill release it. it may get DH in trouble, but right now my patience with nvidia is at an all time low.

*CATALYST maker* · Mar 25, 2003, 06:50 PM

Once again for the record,

ATI will post only Microsoft certified drivers and they will be posted up to 10 times a year. I challenge anyone to find another company in high tech with such a solid driver update stance.

The ultimate drivers in ATI's minds are the ones that find a delicate balance between image quality and performance. CATALYST (since they are WHQL certified) do exactly that.
Not to mention we even have a control panel slider that lets you trade off some image quality for better performance. (This of course is within acceptable boundries).

When will people realize it is not just about Frames Per Second anymore. The technology is so far advanced now...

It is now based on Frames Per Second AND excellent image quality. (the key point is the words after the AND)

DriveEuro · Mar 25, 2003, 06:54 PM

Well at least we can still run betas. We just can't run 3DMark03 with them........ Right?

*CATALYST maker* · Mar 25, 2003, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DriveEuro
Well at least we can still run betas. We just can't run 3DMark03 with them........ Right?

WRONG...
a) you can run all betas still
b) you CAN run 3dMark2003 with them
c) you CAN NOT submit scores to the 3dMark hall of fame database for only the three NVIDIA driver revisions that are banned for the moment

This all does not impact anyones ability to run 3DMark.

DriveEuro · Mar 25, 2003, 07:08 PM

OH! I thought it was gonna affect ALL betas. Eh, who cares then. Certainly not me!

Mar 24, 2003, 05:42 PM	#2
Erroneus Get off my lawn! Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 13,417 Rep Power: 119 System Specs	YEAAHH! Nice enough, no more shitty optimized 3dmark drivers from Nvidia sacrifising quality but isn't easy to cheat about what driver version your using... __________________

Mar 24, 2003, 07:16 PM	#9
CATALYST maker ATI driver guru Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: ATI, Canada Posts: 678 Rep Power: 63	ATI CATALYST And at this point CATALYST MAKER jumps up and down with joy, and declares to the world that "ALL CATALYST POSTINGS WILL BE WHQL CERTIFIED, AND THEY WILL BE POSTED 10 TIMES A YEAR" and walks off in the sunset......

Mar 24, 2003, 07:21 PM	#10
riles9262 Driverheaven brewmaster Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 4,842 Rep Power: 72 System Specs	sleazy buggers...its their fault if their new hi perf card licks balls...they knew what ati brought to the table for many months b4 they released their fx...they shouldnt have to sink to this level to ensure hi scores... __________________ A beer a day keeps the doctor away.

Mar 24, 2003, 08:20 PM	#15
~~Asuka~~ BANNED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 579 Rep Power: 0	Re: ATI CATALYST Originally posted by CATALYST maker And at this point CATALYST MAKER jumps up and down with joy, and declares to the world that "ALL CATALYST POSTINGS WILL BE WHQL CERTIFIED, AND THEY WILL BE POSTED 10 TIMES A YEAR" and walks off in the sunset...... At which point nVidia is ultimatively hopelessly lost... they could only reconsider their target market and sell their GeForce FX to Rap bands: "Yo, nVidia, bring the noise!"

Mar 25, 2003, 01:57 AM	#20
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	I liked Nvidia BEFORE the GFFX debacle, I think that is about the time they turned into a good company /w a good product/DRIVERS into a company that grew complacent w/ their success of the GFti series and earlier cards. Now they are embarassed and were/are trying to 'cheat' to save face w/ the optimized drivers for 3DMark03 (which they KNEW would be leaked). let's not turn into a bunch of OSTRICHES! They are still a good company that works hard (especially in the driver department) which I appreciate. The next year will really show what Nvidia is made of. I believe FutureMark had every right to pull the scores, the drivers were obviously a "cheat" in a way. Although it does make my wonder if they are in kahoots w/ ATI on other levels. __________________

Mar 24, 2003, 06:00 PM	#3
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	about time that happened.

Mar 24, 2003, 06:54 PM	#5
~~Asuka~~ BANNED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 579 Rep Power: 0	It really was already high noon they did something about nVidia's foul cheating! After they realized that their GeFarce FX sucks donkey balls and they're too stupid to do something about it the ordinary way, they started with this foul behavior as a last resort... how shameful!

Mar 24, 2003, 06:56 PM	#7
~~shai~~ Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 613 Rep Power: 0	why does it realy matter nvidia gets the worst marks anyway...

Mar 24, 2003, 07:04 PM	#8
shuki DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: in the hidden place Posts: 1,975 Rep Power: 0	but somehow nvidia will come out looking alright. they always seem to end up on top somehow... remember that inquirer article about nforce mobo's and they were blaming mobo mfgr's on this BIOS freeze issue and laid no blame on nvidia's doorstep...

Mar 24, 2003, 08:40 PM	#17
Matth Flash Banner Hater Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: UK Posts: 3,426 Rep Power: 93 System Specs	Aiming for WHQL DRIVERS ONLY Now that is NOT a great move, since tweaked/tuned drivers are a valid facet of graphics benchmarking. The obvious answer, would be to make some quality tests part of the main benchmark, or to confine any nonstandard setups to a second "open" section. If 16 bits improves the speed, with a qulity loss noticeable only on static image comparison, then it is a valid method of improvimg performance.

Mar 25, 2003, 12:24 AM	#18
~~Optimummind~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Orange, California Posts: 632 Rep Power: 0	Those who are slamming nVIDIA are absolute morons. nVIDIA didn't even play a role in the 3DMark03 fiasco. So what if their BETA drivers got leaked? It wasn't their official or WHQL'ed drivers that were under suspicion. nVIDIA reps didn't tout anything about those BETAs. I'm surprised even Zardon is making such stupid comments.

Mar 25, 2003, 12:53 AM	#19
Soloboy DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 21 Rep Power: 0	I had to sign up on the forum just to get in on this. I gotta agree with Optimummind. These are there beta drivers. The ones they have in their lab and try out all sorts of different settings on. Its not like these were ever officaly released or even endorsed by nvidia. For all you know nvidia was just experimenting with other settings and just lowered the quality so it was easier to determine how well other optimizations work by making benchmarks less gpu limited. Experimenting isnt a bad thing at all. Besides I dont remember anyone getting this worked up even when ATI released drivers for the 8500 that had a SPECIFIC reference to Quake3 so that it could lower the image quality. Whats worse? ATI making a specific references to a game in order affect quality/performance or some leaked beta drivers that probaly arent even for public use useing some different settings? Not to mention the slew of problems ATI drivers have had in the past. If I'm not mistaken the lastest Catalyst 3.2 causes games that run on the Half-life engine to lock up. Im not saying Nvidia is great and ATI sucks. God knows that the Det 40's atleast had some issues. I also believe that the 9700/9800 is superior to the GFX and that the GFX was a dissapointment. Like they say "He who has no sins may cast the first stone" Soloboy

Mar 25, 2003, 02:54 PM	Thread Starter #25
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,619 Rep Power: 0	You're kidding. Seriously? Ok, I'll go hunt down some links. __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Mar 25, 2003, 06:50 PM	#27
CATALYST maker ATI driver guru Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: ATI, Canada Posts: 678 Rep Power: 63	Once again for the record, ATI will post only Microsoft certified drivers and they will be posted up to 10 times a year. I challenge anyone to find another company in high tech with such a solid driver update stance. The ultimate drivers in ATI's minds are the ones that find a delicate balance between image quality and performance. CATALYST (since they are WHQL certified) do exactly that. Not to mention we even have a control panel slider that lets you trade off some image quality for better performance. (This of course is within acceptable boundries). When will people realize it is not just about Frames Per Second anymore. The technology is so far advanced now... It is now based on Frames Per Second AND excellent image quality. (the key point is the words after the AND)

Mar 25, 2003, 06:54 PM	#28
DriveEuro HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gurnee Illinois Posts: 4,677 Rep Power: 0	Well at least we can still run betas. We just can't run 3DMark03 with them........ Right? __________________ [color=orange]ASUS P4P800 Deluxe [color=black]-[/color] 2.4C --> 3300mhz [color=black]-[/color] Mushkin PC3200 at 220 5-2-2-2 (cpu limited) [color=black]-[/color] BBAti 9800Pro at 430/375 [/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]01[/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]03[/color] 16001200 12801024

Mar 25, 2003, 07:08 PM	#30
DriveEuro HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gurnee Illinois Posts: 4,677 Rep Power: 0	OH! I thought it was gonna affect ALL betas. Eh, who cares then. Certainly not me! __________________ [color=orange]ASUS P4P800 Deluxe [color=black]-[/color] 2.4C --> 3300mhz [color=black]-[/color] Mushkin PC3200 at 220 5-2-2-2 (cpu limited) [color=black]-[/color] BBAti 9800Pro at 430/375 [/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]01[/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]03[/color] 16001200 12801024