ATI 9500 PRO vs Saphire 9700 PRO

franguinho · Apr 5, 2003, 08:08 AM

Hi y'all...

im lookin to buy a radeon within the next month but cant seem to make up my mind...

the saphire 9700 pro looks better but is only clocked at 275/270 (significantly lower than the built by ati cards).... im not sure what the built by ati 9500 pro is clocked at...

so basically which will perform better, assuming price isnt a worry (theyre only like 20 bucks apart)

thx!

ps - i also heard taht the sapphire card has bad 2d quality...anyone know anything about this?

~~Crash Override~~ · Apr 5, 2003, 11:30 AM

the sapphire pro is not 275/270 it is 325/310......they make alot of the BB ATi cards

Vampyromaniac · Apr 5, 2003, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by franguinho
the saphire 9700 pro looks better but is only clocked at 275/270 (significantly lower than the built by ati cards)....

I think you have a plain 9700 here (not Pro). The plain Sapphire 9700, and most other plain 9700's, are clocked 275/270.

In any case, 9700-Pro or plain 9700, either one would beat a 9500-Pro

~~Asuka~~ · Apr 5, 2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Vampyromaniac
In any case, 9700-Pro or plain 9700, either one would beat a 9500-Pro

Absolutely. My new Gainward GF4 Ti 4800SE beats a Radeon 9500 Pro as well, while being a lot below the 9700's or even 9700 Por's price

And, you can actually get it over here in Europe!

Alistair · Apr 5, 2003, 04:43 PM

franguinho · Apr 5, 2003, 08:01 PM

ya turns out the saph card was indeed a non-pro radeon... but i heard it can be easily flashed to pro...? anyone know about this?

Zardon · Apr 5, 2003, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka
Absolutely. My new Gainward GF4 Ti 4800SE beats a Radeon 9500 Pro as well, while being a lot below the 9700's or even 9700 Por's price

until you enable AA/Aniso.. its also not DX9.....

~~Asuka~~ · Apr 5, 2003, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Zardon
until you enable AA/Aniso..

It still can keep up nicely at 2xAA and 4xAniso... only with 4xAA and 8XAniso, it gets a little bit behind. But with current games like Comanche 4 which already run without any AA/Aniso only around 40fps (with a fast CPU!), raw power is the most important thing. If you would enable AA or Aniso there (especially 4xAA), you'd end up with a 10fps slideshow

So 4xAA/8xAniso is only interesting when you *only* play very old games where you have enough excess fps you can sacrifice.

its also not DX9.....

And this is important because there are actually how much DX9 games?

Besides, as I already noted in another thread, current cards are still much too slow for DX9 anyway. That's nothing new, back then when DX8 just came out, the very first cards supporting DX8 were still much too slow for it as well.

Zardon · Apr 5, 2003, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Asuka
And this is important because there are actually how much DX9 games?
Besides, as I already noted in another thread, current cards are still much too slow for DX9 anyway. That's nothing new, back then when DX8 just came out, the very first cards supporting DX8 were still much too slow for it as well.

no point rolling your eye's

ive already answered your DX9 claims in another thread. Current cards arent too slow. the 9700 pro and 9800 pro run DX9 demos perfectly fine. you need to actually try one before quoting this stuff. im getting 60fps at 1280x1024 with the very demo you say wont run on current hardware. granted my rig isnt an average gaming rig, but nontheless most DX9 demos and tests ive seen running on a 9700 and even in some cases a 9500 are acceptable and visually very impressive.

My point is this. DX9 games may not be available right now, but there are some pretty cool demos and why would you NOT purchase a DX9 capable card if the pricing was around the same as a NON DX9 capable card? its futureproofing and widening your options, its also sensible.

I also dont want you to think that my disagreeing with you over this is in anyway slamming your choice of hardware, as ive used the very same card in your rig and its a nice piece of hardware. It just appears to me that you are perhaps dismissing this technology solely because your hardware cant support it.

~~Asuka~~ · Apr 6, 2003, 01:10 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zardon
no point rolling your eye's ive already answered your DX9 claims in another thread. Current cards arent too slow. the 9700 pro and 9800 pro run DX9 demos perfectly fine. you need to actually try one before quoting this stuff. im getting 60fps at 1280x1024 with the very demo you say wont run on current hardware. granted my rig isnt an average gaming rig, but nontheless most DX9 demos and tests ive seen running on a 9700 and even in some cases a 9500 are acceptable and visually very impressive.

"Not an average"? That's still extremely carefully expressed... Those who have a 3000+ might probably better be measured in per mil than per cent, and those who then take this extremely expensive piece of hardware and overclock it to hell and back with more than 700MHz over normal are still much less, I'd say. How do you cool that thing, anyway, so it doesn't melt right on the spot? Liquid nitrogen or something?

My point is this. DX9 games may not be available right now, but there are some pretty cool demos and why would you NOT purchase a DX9 capable card if the pricing was around the same as a NON DX9 capable card? its futureproofing and widening your options, its also sensible.

I'll have to say there - I agree aboslutely 100% with you! Yes, really! The point is - there is no equally priced DX9-capable alternative!!! Neither here in Germany, nor in the rest of Europe. I did always want to get a R9500 Pro for entire three months, until I had to understand that ATI doesn't give a f*ck about the European market!

So it is next to impossible to get their new cards over here, and if a retailer should only as much as claim to have one, it always is extremely overpriced!

So there absolutely is no such a thing as an equally priced alternative. Not over here.

I also dont want you to think that my disagreeing with you over this is in anyway slamming your choice of hardware, as ive used the very same card in your rig and its a nice piece of hardware. It just appears to me that you are perhaps dismissing this technology solely because your hardware cant support it.

No. I'm dismissing it because there is currently no use for it, except a few demos which you can use to brag with, as long as you have a 3000+ and a R9700 Pro to make them run fluently enough. It will be quite some time until games for DX9 will come out. Heck, some modern games don't yet even use DX8 - e.g. Unreal 2 still uses DX7! The game programmers always program so they have the maximum possible audience and not only some high-tech freaks which always have the latest stuff. Before the vast majority of all gamers doesn't have at least a 3000+ (or better) and a R9700Pro / GF FX or better, they won't waste a single thought about DX9. Even then, they will still have a huge learning curve going from DX8 to DX9 if they want to change, because when you go from one DX version to the next, you'll have to completely learn anew the very most stuff!

So most will probably decide to stick with DX8 for quite some time, until the change is absolutely neccessary.

Zardon · Apr 6, 2003, 01:15 AM

the 9500 is hard to get, quite a few people have been asking me about availability atm..... thats a bummer there werent any when you went to order. I hope they get that sorted, they are losing alot of sales.

franguinho · Apr 6, 2003, 01:48 AM

hmmmmmm so any news on that bios flash method?

merry · Apr 7, 2003, 11:10 AM

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think you need to flash your BIOS. There are tweakers out there that support o-cing, you'll use them anyway before you flash, to find the maximum speeds of the card.

It's likely to reach the pro 325 MHz for the core, but the memory on the non-pro will be slower (cheaper). I think there is a slight chance to get a non-pro to pro mem figures, but I wouldn't count on it. Anyway, the 256bit mem bandwith of the 9700 (pro and non-pro) will give extra performance over the 9500pro (with 128bit).

franguinho · Apr 7, 2003, 04:04 PM

sweet

~~Asuka~~ · Apr 7, 2003, 10:24 PM

I'd strongly recommend against this hack to make the 9500 non-Pro into a 9500 Pro, because it is predestined to fail in at least 99% of all cases!

On the 9500 non-Pro, 4 of the pixel pipelines are deactivated for a reason - they're broken!
Just think about it for a moment: you produce, say, 100.000 of the 9500 Pro cards. Then comes the quality control, and on a certain percentage of the cards, 1 one or more of the 8 pipelines are broken!

Now, what will you do? Sell only the cards with broken pipelines as 9500 non-Pro, or go and sell some of the cards with 8 fully functional pipelines as 9500 non-Pro as well, even if you could sell them as more expensive 9500 Pro? Unless you smoked way too much grass, you'll only sell cards with defective pipelines as 9500 non-Pro, not fully functional ones!
That why this hack to reactivate the deactivated pipelines is utter nonsense, because you'll only reactivate broken pipelines, which will result in nasty graphics bugs, crashes and instability

franguinho · Apr 7, 2003, 10:33 PM

asuka we're talking about flashing a non pro 9700 to pro... its only really an increase in clock speed afaik

~~Asuka~~ · Apr 7, 2003, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by franguinho
asuka we're talking about flashing a non pro 9700 to pro... its only really an increase in clock speed afaik

Indeed - the only difference there is the clock rate, so I cannot see why anyone would want to flash it?

When talking about flashing the card, I automatically assumed it would be 9500 non-Pro to 9500 Pro, since 9700 non-Pro to 9700 Pro doesn't make any sense, as they only differ in clock rates.

franguinho · Apr 8, 2003, 03:42 AM

the reason for flashing it would be to keep the clock speeds there without "really" overclocking it as there is no 3rd party software present... plus a built by ATI card is a lot cooler than a powered by ATI and built by sapphire...hehhehe

Apr 5, 2003, 08:08 AM	#1
franguinho Brazilian Fool Join Date: May 2002 Location: São Paulo Posts: 3,380 Rep Power: 0	ATI 9500 PRO vs Saphire 9700 PRO Hi y'all... im lookin to buy a radeon within the next month but cant seem to make up my mind... the saphire 9700 pro looks better but is only clocked at 275/270 (significantly lower than the built by ati cards).... im not sure what the built by ati 9500 pro is clocked at... so basically which will perform better, assuming price isnt a worry (theyre only like 20 bucks apart) thx! ps - i also heard taht the sapphire card has bad 2d quality...anyone know anything about this? __________________ The Aliens mostly come out at night... mostly...

Apr 5, 2003, 12:07 PM	#4
~~Asuka~~ BANNED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 579 Rep Power: 0	Re: Re: ATI 9500 PRO vs Saphire 9700 PRO Originally posted by Vampyromaniac In any case, 9700-Pro or plain 9700, either one would beat a 9500-Pro Absolutely. My new Gainward GF4 Ti 4800SE beats a Radeon 9500 Pro as well, while being a lot below the 9700's or even 9700 Por's price And, you can actually get it over here in Europe!

Apr 5, 2003, 04:43 PM	#5
Alistair Spoos Join Date: May 2002 Location: State College, PA, USA Posts: 435 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	__________________ - Alistair

Apr 5, 2003, 08:01 PM	Thread Starter #6
franguinho Brazilian Fool Join Date: May 2002 Location: São Paulo Posts: 3,380 Rep Power: 0	ya turns out the saph card was indeed a non-pro radeon... but i heard it can be easily flashed to pro...? anyone know about this? __________________ The Aliens mostly come out at night... mostly...

Apr 5, 2003, 10:15 PM	#8
~~Asuka~~ BANNED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 579 Rep Power: 0	Re: Re: Re: Re: ATI 9500 PRO vs Saphire 9700 PRO Originally posted by Zardon until you enable AA/Aniso.. It still can keep up nicely at 2xAA and 4xAniso... only with 4xAA and 8XAniso, it gets a little bit behind. But with current games like Comanche 4 which already run without any AA/Aniso only around 40fps (with a fast CPU!), raw power is the most important thing. If you would enable AA or Aniso there (especially 4xAA), you'd end up with a 10fps slideshow So 4xAA/8xAniso is only interesting when you only play very old games where you have enough excess fps you can sacrifice. its also not DX9..... And this is important because there are actually how much DX9 games? Besides, as I already noted in another thread, current cards are still much too slow for DX9 anyway. That's nothing new, back then when DX8 just came out, the very first cards supporting DX8 were still much too slow for it as well.

Apr 5, 2003, 11:30 AM	#2
~~Crash Override~~ Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 2,448 Rep Power: 0	the sapphire pro is not 275/270 it is 325/310......they make alot of the BB ATi cards

Apr 6, 2003, 01:10 AM	#10
~~Asuka~~ BANNED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 579 Rep Power: 0	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ATI 9500 PRO vs Saphire 9700 PRO [QUOTE]Originally posted by Zardon no point rolling your eye's ive already answered your DX9 claims in another thread. Current cards arent too slow. the 9700 pro and 9800 pro run DX9 demos perfectly fine. you need to actually try one before quoting this stuff. im getting 60fps at 1280x1024 with the very demo you say wont run on current hardware. granted my rig isnt an average gaming rig, but nontheless most DX9 demos and tests ive seen running on a 9700 and even in some cases a 9500 are acceptable and visually very impressive. "Not an average"? That's still extremely carefully expressed... Those who have a 3000+ might probably better be measured in per mil than per cent, and those who then take this extremely expensive piece of hardware and overclock it to hell and back with more than 700MHz over normal are still much less, I'd say. How do you cool that thing, anyway, so it doesn't melt right on the spot? Liquid nitrogen or something? My point is this. DX9 games may not be available right now, but there are some pretty cool demos and why would you NOT purchase a DX9 capable card if the pricing was around the same as a NON DX9 capable card? its futureproofing and widening your options, its also sensible. I'll have to say there - I agree aboslutely 100% with you! Yes, really! The point is - there is no equally priced DX9-capable alternative!!! Neither here in Germany, nor in the rest of Europe. I did always want to get a R9500 Pro for entire three months, until I had to understand that ATI doesn't give a fck about the European market! So it is next to impossible to get their new cards over here, and if a retailer should only as much as claim to have one, it always is extremely* overpriced! So there absolutely is no such a thing as an equally priced alternative. Not over here. I also dont want you to think that my disagreeing with you over this is in anyway slamming your choice of hardware, as ive used the very same card in your rig and its a nice piece of hardware. It just appears to me that you are perhaps dismissing this technology solely because your hardware cant support it. No. I'm dismissing it because there is currently no use for it, except a few demos which you can use to brag with, as long as you have a 3000+ and a R9700 Pro to make them run fluently enough. It will be quite some time until games for DX9 will come out. Heck, some modern games don't yet even use DX8 - e.g. Unreal 2 still uses DX7! The game programmers always program so they have the maximum possible audience and not only some high-tech freaks which always have the latest stuff. Before the vast majority of all gamers doesn't have at least a 3000+ (or better) and a R9700Pro / GF FX or better, they won't waste a single thought about DX9. Even then, they will still have a huge learning curve going from DX8 to DX9 if they want to change, because when you go from one DX version to the next, you'll have to completely learn anew the very most stuff! So most will probably decide to stick with DX8 for quite some time, until the change is absolutely neccessary.

Apr 6, 2003, 01:15 AM	#11
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	the 9500 is hard to get, quite a few people have been asking me about availability atm..... thats a bummer there werent any when you went to order. I hope they get that sorted, they are losing alot of sales.

Apr 6, 2003, 01:48 AM	Thread Starter #12
franguinho Brazilian Fool Join Date: May 2002 Location: São Paulo Posts: 3,380 Rep Power: 0	hmmmmmm so any news on that bios flash method? __________________ The Aliens mostly come out at night... mostly...

Apr 7, 2003, 11:10 AM	#13
merry gargouille Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 962 Rep Power: 0	I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think you need to flash your BIOS. There are tweakers out there that support o-cing, you'll use them anyway before you flash, to find the maximum speeds of the card. It's likely to reach the pro 325 MHz for the core, but the memory on the non-pro will be slower (cheaper). I think there is a slight chance to get a non-pro to pro mem figures, but I wouldn't count on it. Anyway, the 256bit mem bandwith of the 9700 (pro and non-pro) will give extra performance over the 9500pro (with 128bit). __________________ There is a war between the ones who say there is a war and the ones who say there isn't. ~~Leonard Cohen

Apr 7, 2003, 04:04 PM	Thread Starter #14
franguinho Brazilian Fool Join Date: May 2002 Location: São Paulo Posts: 3,380 Rep Power: 0	sweet __________________ The Aliens mostly come out at night... mostly...

Apr 7, 2003, 10:24 PM	#15
~~Asuka~~ BANNED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 579 Rep Power: 0	I'd strongly recommend against this hack to make the 9500 non-Pro into a 9500 Pro, because it is predestined to fail in at least 99% of all cases! On the 9500 non-Pro, 4 of the pixel pipelines are deactivated for a reason - *they're broken!* Just think about it for a moment: you produce, say, 100.000 of the 9500 Pro cards. Then comes the quality control, and on a certain percentage of the cards, 1 one or more of the 8 pipelines are broken! Now, what will you do? Sell only the cards with broken pipelines as 9500 non-Pro, or go and sell some of the cards with 8 fully functional pipelines as 9500 non-Pro as well, even if you could sell them as more expensive 9500 Pro? Unless you smoked way too much grass, you'll only sell cards with defective pipelines as 9500 non-Pro, not fully functional ones! That why this hack to reactivate the deactivated pipelines is utter nonsense, because you'll only reactivate broken pipelines, which will result in nasty graphics bugs, crashes and instability

Apr 7, 2003, 10:33 PM	Thread Starter #16
franguinho Brazilian Fool Join Date: May 2002 Location: São Paulo Posts: 3,380 Rep Power: 0	asuka we're talking about flashing a non pro 9700 to pro... its only really an increase in clock speed afaik __________________ The Aliens mostly come out at night... mostly...

Apr 7, 2003, 10:41 PM	#17
~~Asuka~~ BANNED Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 579 Rep Power: 0	Originally posted by franguinho asuka we're talking about flashing a non pro 9700 to pro... its only really an increase in clock speed afaik Indeed - the only difference there is the clock rate, so I cannot see why anyone would want to flash it? When talking about flashing the card, I automatically assumed it would be 9500 non-Pro to 9500 Pro, since 9700 non-Pro to 9700 Pro doesn't make any sense, as they only differ in clock rates.

Apr 8, 2003, 03:42 AM	Thread Starter #18
franguinho Brazilian Fool Join Date: May 2002 Location: São Paulo Posts: 3,380 Rep Power: 0	the reason for flashing it would be to keep the clock speeds there without "really" overclocking it as there is no 3rd party software present... plus a built by ATI card is a lot cooler than a powered by ATI and built by sapphire...hehhehe __________________ The Aliens mostly come out at night... mostly...