How many amps to fry a computer?

Bellator · May 25, 2007, 01:31 AM

So this whole surge protection thing is giving me a headache.

Here's the situation: Just moved into a new apartment. Turns out the outlets don't have working grounds. Landlord is refusin to do anything and even if I got him to it would mean they would have to tear out all the wiring and rip out the walls, since the idiots are still using wiring from the 1920s (old building).

So even if I use a surge protector, it's really not going to be doing much since there's no working ground.

Question is this... what is the likelihood of there being enough of a surge that my components get fired WITHOUT tripping the breaker... because breaker box on the circuit, and perhaps the fuse in the surge protector, are really all that are protecthing me.

I think breakers and fuses go at around 15 amps... how many amps does it take to seriously damage computer/speaker equipment? Are the odds good that the breaker/surge protector fuse is going to be enough protection?

Thanks.

ChaosMinionX · May 25, 2007, 04:27 AM

Simple solution, buy a surge protector or UPS with power modulation.

Dyre Straits · May 25, 2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellator

So this whole surge protection thing is giving me a headache.

Here's the situation: Just moved into a new apartment. Turns out the outlets don't have working grounds. Landlord is refusin to do anything and even if I got him to it would mean they would have to tear out all the wiring and rip out the walls, since the idiots are still using wiring from the 1920s (old building).

So even if I use a surge protector, it's really not going to be doing much since there's no working ground.

Question is this... what is the likelihood of there being enough of a surge that my components get fired WITHOUT tripping the breaker... because breaker box on the circuit, and perhaps the fuse in the surge protector, are really all that are protecthing me.

I think breakers and fuses go at around 15 amps... how many amps does it take to seriously damage computer/speaker equipment? Are the odds good that the breaker/surge protector fuse is going to be enough protection?

Thanks.

Here is an answer from a certified electrician re: 2-wire homes and whether surge protectors can help:

_______________________________________

Q: We live in an older home and all of our outlets are only 2-wire with no third grounding hole, we can't plug some things into them and our surge protector has a fault light lit when we plug it in. We've been using adapters, is that safe?

A: Grounding is a very complicated subject but I will do my best to explain.

In very old homes with single Knob & tube wiring they usually didn't install a third grounding wire except in some kitchens, bathrooms and laundry areas. and even into the 60's with newer multi-wire cable they still didn't install a third grounding wire, Then when 3-wire cable did start to become "popular" the 2-wire outlets were still quicker and cheaper to install.
What all this means is your home may already have 3-wire grounded cable to your outlet boxes but you only have 2-wire outlets. The only definite way to know for sure is to have a certified electrician open an existing outlet box and check to see if a 3rd grounding wire is unhooked inside the box and checked for continuity to ground.
An "adapter" in my opinion is not a safe alternative to having a real 3-wire grounded outlet.
If you take a close look you will see a metal ground strap extending from the adapter with a small hole in it, that strap is designed to be secured to the screw in the center of the plug [note: the cover screw].
The problem is; If there is no ground wire that plug is "not" grounded, and besides that most people don't bother with that grounding strap anyway.
With all that said, lets talk about surge protectors. A surge protector is designed to redirect voltage surges to ground. [That energy has to go someplace] If there is no ground for that surge protector to send that energy the surge protector cannot function properly.

______________________________________

So, from my own past experience as a home remodeler, what I would suggest is to consider running another circuit from the power box -- if you have breaker switches -- and use the 3-wire for your home office setup. Depending on whether your house has a crawlspace or not, it could be a fairly simple procedure and shouldn't be too costly of a project for a certified electrician.

However, if you have a fuse box instead of a breaker switch power box, I'd be very prone to considering having the power box upgraded.

We also had moved into an older house here that was built in the 60's using only the 2-wire system and I've upgraded as much as has been needed to get the proper grounding for our devices.

Good luck!

**kris23** · May 25, 2007, 03:30 PM

if bad comes to worse, move out!

Matth · May 25, 2007, 03:49 PM

Is this US or UK - I think that if it was UK, it would fail all sorts of safety tests, and there would be trouble if the fault was not fixed.

As I understood it, surge protectors normally include both differential mode (UK: L-N) and common mode (UK: L-E & N-E) protection - The US approach may be different.

In general, fuses and breakers are not fast enough to prevent damage to electronics, as they are neither fast enough nor precise enough.

Zelig · May 25, 2007, 04:04 PM

I've got a friend who bought a new Dell laptop about 8 months ago, which only came with a 2-pronged adaptor. He's been using fine with that, despite my warnings...

Judas · May 25, 2007, 05:03 PM

Some UPS's come with the ability to actually put in an external ground (some APC units), in which you can run yourself to a KNOWN ground source (usually the plumping in the house will be completely grounded, but it's exactly a recommended place to dilibertately put a ground source)

I'd seriously look into the Safety requirements for land lords and your apartments, you could possibly get him into a serious amount of shit!

Dyre Straits · May 25, 2007, 06:31 PM

RE: Safety Requirements for Landlords.....

In most jurisdictions, there's a 'grandfather clause' that prevents local governments from requiring that buildings built prior to current standards be upgraded to today's codes. These buildings are 'grandfathered' in and not required to meet the more stringent codes of today. This is why many apartments don't have sprinkler systems for fires, grounded outlets to prevent electrical fires, etc.

What needs to be done is to check the local code enforcement to see if this building meets the protected status of such a dwelling.

Judas · May 25, 2007, 07:19 PM

While grandfather clauses apply to the landlords, usually if other people that will be renting the building, the laws change (they do here anyways), making the grandfather clause moot.

It's a Public place, Renters rights kick in, if the building doesn't meet the specific legal codes, the land lord could be fined significantly, even go as far as to have his liecense to rent RIPPED away and his entire building shutdown and the people evicted until either he sells it to someone who will fix it up to the standard, or fixes it himself, OR destroys it. Usually if he's willing to fix it, they won't evict anyone.

Either way, i wouldn't be living in a building like that without Proper up to date wiring with grounds.

Also most grandfather clauses are not transferable, if the orginal owner dies, and even in the case of being willed over to a new owner, the moment the transfer happens, that DATES Regulations kick in, so that guy would have to be extremely old to try to work around a grandfather clause.

Dyre Straits · May 26, 2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas

While grandfather clauses apply to the landlords, usually if other people that will be renting the building, the laws change (they do here anyways), making the grandfather clause moot.

It's a Public place, Renters rights kick in, if the building doesn't meet the specific legal codes, the land lord could be fined significantly, even go as far as to have his liecense to rent RIPPED away and his entire building shutdown and the people evicted until either he sells it to someone who will fix it up to the standard, or fixes it himself, OR destroys it. Usually if he's willing to fix it, they won't evict anyone.

Either way, i wouldn't be living in a building like that without Proper up to date wiring with grounds.

Also most grandfather clauses are not transferable, if the orginal owner dies, and even in the case of being willed over to a new owner, the moment the transfer happens, that DATES Regulations kick in, so that guy would have to be extremely old to try to work around a grandfather clause.

I'm sure these grandfather clauses differ from place to place, too.

I know you're talking about Canada and I'm talking about USA. It's a completely different ball game depending on where the OP is located.

BUT, if this landlord can be made to upgrade his building/s then it's in everyone's interest to put pressure on him/her to do so.

The_Neon_Cowboy · May 26, 2007, 10:52 AM

complain to the housing authority / office of inspections in your area? depends
on where you live as to your rights

Bellator · May 26, 2007, 02:16 PM

the problem is that if I were to make a fuss and the landlord was forced to replace the wiring, they'd have to rip out the walls, and it's just too much of a hassle... I just started working full time in two different jobs and I just don't have the time to worry about having the place completely re-wired... Kinda between the proverbial rock and hard place... either go through the incredibly time consuming mess of getting this building wired modern, or run the risk of frying my equipment.

However because we don't have an air conditioner, and the fridge is (I believe) on a separate circuit, I'm guessing that, barring lightning, my equipment is just going to take slow damage over time which will lower its life expectancy, rather than actually getting destroyed in one catastrophic surge.

Judas · May 29, 2007, 06:28 PM

like i had mentioned, you can get a UPS from APC that has the option to attach a external Ground wire, which you should be able to run to just about anywhere that should lead to the ground, usually plumbing of some sort will be grounded, I've seen some people depending on the type of appartments, running thier ground wires OUTSIDE through a window, and then attactching it to any conduet for power, or metal such as the emergency stairways down to the ground.

Wire isn't all that expensive.... shouldn't be to hard to conseal it and still keep your electronics in safe running order.

H3X4D3C1M4L · Jun 3, 2007, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellator

the problem is that if I were to make a fuss and the landlord was forced to replace the wiring, they'd have to rip out the walls, and it's just too much of a hassle... I just started working full time in two different jobs and I just don't have the time to worry about having the place completely re-wired... Kinda between the proverbial rock and hard place... either go through the incredibly time consuming mess of getting this building wired modern, or run the risk of frying my equipment.

However because we don't have an air conditioner, and the fridge is (I believe) on a separate circuit, I'm guessing that, barring lightning, my equipment is just going to take slow damage over time which will lower its life expectancy, rather than actually getting destroyed in one catastrophic surge.

When did I say that, in your quote? Wow I'm a smart guy aren't I

Anyway.... what I would do in your situation is find a pipe that goes to a radiator or something else... even the kitchen sink pipe or something in the bathroom hell.... something nice and close. Go to Home Depot. For $0.20 you can get a 3 prong NEMA approved plug. Take a 2 prong cord, cut off the end with wire cutters, then strip the ends so they're exposed (making sure to note which side is hot and which is neutral). Run a small copper wire attached at one end to the pipe you've chosen and then ground the 3 prong plug to that and then hook the plug up to the 2 prong cord you've just ripped apart. Ta-da! Safe grounded plug

! To further enhance looks and safety, purchase optional metal eletrical box (again not more than a buck) and a faceplate (which may even come with the plug). Then you lay it on the floor and plug a UPS (always handy no matter what) into it as well as anything else you need. Then you need not ever worry again. All it takes is that small copper wire for the grounding, anything that doesn't get returned to the neutral side or any surges are thwarted by the grounding to the earth via the pipe!

Hackish but hey, it works and its an easy solution.

By the way, being in an apartment, don't worry about blowing fuses too much. That'll likely take out something in someone elses apartment. Then both of you complain and the landlord listens and things get done.

May 25, 2007, 04:27 AM	#2
ChaosMinionX USB 3 dot oh Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,911 Rep Power: 47 System Specs	Simple solution, buy a surge protector or UPS with power modulation. __________________ ::Heatware:: How you can help DriverHeaven by using Digg!

May 25, 2007, 03:30 PM	#4
kris23 Going Insane..... Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,017 Rep Power: 131 System Specs	if bad comes to worse, move out! __________________ Hardwareheaven Super-Moderator Building a new computer system and not sure where to start? Click Here! last updated (5/18/11) Rosewill FUTURE case replaces CM 690 II with its greater interior length. Building a PC: Step by Step Guide Written by Kristopher Pedemonte and Nathan Marks-Forder Edited by Allan Campbell Questions or Comments? feel free to post them in the forums!

May 25, 2007, 03:49 PM	#5
Matth Flash Banner Hater Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: UK Posts: 3,426 Rep Power: 93 System Specs	Is this US or UK - I think that if it was UK, it would fail all sorts of safety tests, and there would be trouble if the fault was not fixed. As I understood it, surge protectors normally include both differential mode (UK: L-N) and common mode (UK: L-E & N-E) protection - The US approach may be different. In general, fuses and breakers are not fast enough to prevent damage to electronics, as they are neither fast enough nor precise enough. __________________ Mary had a little lamb, Her father shot it dead Now Mary takes her lamb to school, Between two crusts of bread

May 25, 2007, 04:04 PM	#6
Zelig HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 3,187 Rep Power: 71 System Specs	I've got a friend who bought a new Dell laptop about 8 months ago, which only came with a 2-pronged adaptor. He's been using fine with that, despite my warnings... __________________ --

May 26, 2007, 10:52 AM	#11
The_Neon_Cowboy HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16,009 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	complain to the housing authority / office of inspections in your area? depends on where you live as to your rights __________________