Ryguy786

My parents are getting me a graduation present finally, so they're getting me a digital camera and allowing me to upgrade my computer, getting about 550-600 bucks worth.

Right now I have
Abit Ax8 Socket 939 mobo
AMD Athlon 64 3200+
ATI Radeon X850XT 256mb 256bit (500 core and 1080 memory clock i think)
1gb of giel ram, 2-2-2-5 timings, dual channel.

So I have a few questions.
Where am I bottlenecking, if I am?
Can I upgrade my RAM by just buying 2gb (1gbx2) and it be effiecient, though I dont know how dual channel stuff works? So I'd have 3gb of different types of ram?
Is upgrading my video card worth it? Its giving me some trouble and Im looking at getting an 8600GTS or 8800GTS.

Also, looking at an Athlon 64 X2, dual core 4200+.

Here they are...

Newegg.com - CORSAIR XMS 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

Newegg.com - AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Manchester 2.2GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket 939 Processor - OEM

and...any video card suggestions, if any? The biggest reason i want to upgrade is because mine gives me trouble, i artifact sometimes, and mostly runs very hot...
Thanks yo!

TJ-

dont bother with the dual core 4200 i have it at the moment and its pretty lacking in current games, go for a 6000+

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Mousey

My advice is don't bother with another amd processor at all. Go intel, If AMD's new socket F flops then you're screwed because intel will bump the prices back up.
Get a 775 Mobo, some decent DDR2 memory and a better PCI-E graphics card and your'e set.

My suggestions are;

Gigabyte GA P35-DS3 Mobo - Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

G.Skill 2GB Dual Channel DDR2 -
Newegg.com - G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

Sapphire Radeon X950 PCI-E Crossfire Ready -
Newegg.com - SAPPHIRE 100171L Radeon X1950PRO 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 AGP 4X/8X HDCP Ready Video Card - Retail

Btw, dual channel memory sounds scary at first but it's really easy, Just put the memory in the same coloured slot, the kit i picked out there is a dual channel ready one.
If i went OTT let me know

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kris23

you are asking to upgrade the CPU, Motherboard, and RAM?

i suggest going Intel

AMD has been sucking so hard lately, wouldnt be surprised if they went bankrupt and closed down.

i heard rumors a while back that AMD's old K8 architecture was really a design of intel's. probably would be why Intel stuck with Netburst for so long and why AMD was good for so long.

man if that was fact, i'd laugh so hard..... but rumors are just rumors

do you have a price range? i can find some components for you.

EDIT: ok so 600 dollars? ill get to work.

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kris23

oh yea, mousey, why on earth did you recommend an AGP 8x X1950PRO? he cant even use it with his old rig or his planned intel machine. lol too stressed from school or something?

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cozumel

Hi.

I would not agree with Mousey's choice of motherboard. I would advise that you get one which has an ICH9R southbridge. Any Asus or Gigabyte mobo listed on this page would do the job for now. You could buy a cheap dual core CPU for now and then upgrade to a core 2 duo or quad some time in the future.

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Matth

If planning a CPU upgrade and an extra 2GB RAM (on top of 1),then I would be looking at a motherboard upgrade as well - DDR2 is now considerably cheaper than DDR, and that would probably pay for the new motherboard.

The 2x 1GB DDR Corsair is $184

Newegg.com - CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 675 (PC2 5400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail - 2x 1GB DDR2 is as low as $49.99 (and that is also Corsair XMS).

If you wanted to stay AMD (for comparison, but I'd suggest Core 2 Intel instead)
The S939 model is $65.99
The AM2 model is actually dearer, $74.99
Same price as an Intel E2140 Allendale

The saving on RAM is telling, DDR is obsolete!

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Mary had a little lamb,
Her father shot it dead
Now Mary takes her lamb to school,
Between two crusts of bread

kris23

good DDR2 is just as cheap...

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Ryguy786

OK, cool. I was actually just looking at stuff on newegg and was looking at how much ram was, and how DDR2 compares.

I was also unaware AMD was doing poorly or anything, I havn't done much with hardware or been keeping up the last few years.

I was planning on changing motherboards to something like this.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131013

And the CPU to something like this.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103773


Then I was thinking of grabbing a lot of ram, something like this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231122

My current DDR ram has timings of 2-2-2-5, its 1gb (512x2) dual channel. Is the difference going to be significant? I don't know how timings really work/effect everything.
However, the current savings on this ram seems to be quite outstanding if I'm not mistaken?

However, even this setup is only costing me $365 after the rebates and all, thats pretty cheap. I'd be upgrading those components from 1gb dual channel 2-2-2-5 timings ram, an Athlon 64 3200+, and an ABIT mobo.

This still leaves me with some cash for the video card. Currently rocking something like this

However, it runs hot, and I have to turn up the fan and usually keep the side open, I also artifact sometimes, and I think its the card since it does more often when i dont have the fan cranked.

Im wondering if
1. Should I upgrade the card? Is it going to be bottlenecking my new stuff, and
2. If so, what to? I was looking at something like this.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814143108

However, if its only 128 bit, is it going to make much of a difference? If not, I could try to fork out some more cash on a

Newegg.com - XFX PVT80GGHD4 GeForce 8800GTS XXX 320MB 320-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

Im mostly just wondering if the upgrade would be worth it or not.

Im also wondering about the x1950XT, seems like the numbers are better for the price.
I dont know how to compare ATI vs nvidia, but this was another option. The core is less but its a 256bit

Newegg.com - HIS Hightech H195PRQT512DDN-R-V2 Radeon X1950PRO 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported IceQ3 Turbo Video Card - Retail

So in conclusion I guess...any alternate suggestions for a Mobo+CPU combo in about the same price range, and if so, why? I know nothing of the current AMD situations or whatever, just trying to upgrade an already good gaming rig to even better. Where am I going to see my biggest performance jump, the bang for the buck upgrade?

kris23

newegg seems to be out of order so can you tell me what you put up in those lists?

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cozumel

Kris, Newegg just came back, if rather sluggish - I couldn't get through for ages. Anyhow Ryguy posted:

ASUS M2N-SLI Deluxe AM2 NVIDIA nForce 570 SLI MCP ATX AMD Motherboard - $125
AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ Windsor 3.0GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM2 Processor - $160
G.SKILL 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - $120
GFX:
XFX PVT80GGHD4 GeForce 8800GTS XXX 320MB - $120 or
BFG Tech BFGE86256GTSOC2FE GeForce 8600GTS 256MB - $220

Ryguy - You need to understand that AMD CPU's just don't cut it. Check out the reviews and user experiences on forums (including DH). Much better to go for an Intel based rig.


I would advise you to go for something like
ASUS P5K-E LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX - $140 or
GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3P Rev 2.0 LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX - $145

with an Intel Core 2 Duo E6550 2.33GHz FSB1333MHz -$165

I like GSkill and used them before. Yor sticks are nice but you could go for these which have lower timings.
G.SKILL 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) - $150

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cozumel

Or you could get an Intel Dual Core Allendale E2140 - 1.60GHz, 1MB Cache, 800MHz FSB at $75. This leave you more to spend on a better motherboard, which is afterall, your most important core component and should be of the highest quality. You can upgrade processors if you wanted to do so another time.

Hey Ryguy, I think you broke Newegg when you did whatever you did lol
Their litigation team will be visiting you first thing in the morning

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kris23

AMD processors suck man..... please for the sake of your hard-earned money.... DON'T BUY AN AMD BASED RIG!

Newegg.com - SAPPHIRE 100216L Radeon HD 3850 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail
Newegg.com - Transcend aXeRam 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1200 (PC2 9600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail
Newegg.com - DFI BLOOD IRON P35-T2RL LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Duo E6550 Conroe 2.33GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

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kris23

I put down some of the best bang components in that list.

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Necrosis

AMD processors don't suck; they're just not as good. If AMD would go under the hardware enthusiast market would be dead. Please don't be spreading misinformation.

Matth

AMD had the edge over the P4, Intel took the lead back with a vengance, with core 2.
AMD also has the "socket uncertainty" issue, with AM2/AM2+/AM3 to come, while for the moment, Intel has been relatively stable with S775, though the actual S775 platform has been far less stable & compatible than AMDs S939, since S775 has similar issues yo the Socket 7/Super 7 era.

Basic S775 (eg. old 915 chipset) = 533/800 FSB - NO DUALCORE
Next variant (eg. 945 chipset) = 533/800 FSB, P4 dual core (with revised VRM, Core 2, and by overclocking, 1066FSB)
Then came proper Core 2 / 1066FSB solutions, but then came 1333FSB processors

To support current & immediate future Intels, a S775 platform capable of 1333FSB is essential, though only time will tell if the official FSB moves higher again

Moving to any decent dual-DDR2 setup, even with just medium speed RAM, should be at least equal in memory bandwidth to the best possible dual DDR400.

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Mary had a little lamb,
Her father shot it dead
Now Mary takes her lamb to school,
Between two crusts of bread

Mousey

Uuh, probably. I didn't check what i was reading eitheir

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Zelig

Agreed, and for non-enthusiasts who aren't overclocking, AMD's cost:performance ratio isn't a whole lot different from Intel's.

However, memory speed generally isn't real important for overall system performance. On limited budgets, it's usually best to simply get large amounts of whatever the cheapest available ram is. (Which is mid-speed DDR2, atm).

FWIW, my 4GB of cheapo DDR1, as reported by Everest:



edit: Just to note, and to avoid bringing the thread too far off-topic, "cheapo" is in relation to DDR1, DDR2 is still cheaper than DDR1.

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kris23

you must have had good chips on your memory to be able to get those awesome timings at DDR 509. wow....

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BlueMak

Perhaps he is not using Crucial then.
hahahaha.
Nah, I kid, I kid.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

kris23

lol he called them "cheapo" sticks.... if they're cheap and run THAT good, i could recommend them to all the people that still use DDR

and im no fanboi of Crucial or anything, i just recommend them to anyone who is new to computers so they don't turn around and go for some other usually more expensive sticks that dont perform as well... (like going from Crucial Ballistix 800 to Corsair Dominator 1066) the dominators use something of Alpida or ProMOS which are lower performing items common in more expensive stuff.

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Ryguy786

Ok people, ya have to realize last time I was buying parts, everyone was screaming the exact opposite, and preaching AMD to the high heavens...so lets not bash AMD because they are currently "behind" because it was opposite a bit ago...not a fanboy, but just yelling "AMD sucks" is the least helpful thing you can do.

With that said, I suppose Intel will give a better bang for the buck, while still providing options for upgrade...

Also, I won't be overclocking.

Anywho, I was wondering about some of the stuff that was posted

Krist23, you posted a motherboard with "DDR2 800" as the standard. Does it matter if I slap in a few sticks of the ram you posted of DDR 1200?

Also, I was wondering, what's the big difference between a DDR800 and DDR1200?
Should I go with 2gb of DDR1200 like you posted, or 4gb of DDR800 like
Newegg.com - Patriot Extreme Performance 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

vs yours

Newegg.com - Transcend aXeRam 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1200 (PC2 9600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

What's better, the speed of a DDR1200, or the Size of a DDR800 4gb?

I would assume the DDR1200, so when I purchase more at a later date, it would cheaper, since if I added 2 more sticks, wouldn't that mean they would all need to be the same speed?


I did like the Motherboard/CPU combo you posted, looked pretty solid I guess.

After some thoughts and math, I sure don't like the video card you posted though, have to remember Im coming from an X850XT, and I figure if Im dropping some cash, the jump should be significant...thought it costs more, I think a significant jump will be something like
Newegg.com - XFX PVT80GGHD4 GeForce 8800GTS XXX 320MB 320-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

If i end up doing something lower priced, I think the 512mb memory is worth the small lower clock speeds (though I may be wrong) on something like a
Newegg.com - HIS Hightech H195PRQT512DDN-R-V2 Radeon X1950PRO 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported IceQ3 Turbo Video Card - Retail

for a bit cheaper as well

I like the mobo's you posted cozumule, just once again wondering on the "Memory standard" and if that means I couldn't put the sticks that Kris posted of DDR1200?

So I guess that question, plus Is memory speed, or memory size more important? A 4gb (2gbx2) with a little faster cas latency timings at DDR800 vs 2gb (1gbx2) at DDR1200, which would be better? keeping in mind I wont be overclocking? Cozmule's Mid speed with twice as much ram, or Kris's with the faster ram at only 2gb...Also, how much does cas latency play in the overall performance...?

Once I figure those two things out, and my video card situation, Ill post the items which I think may work.

Also, I dont need brand name reccomandations based on wether you think Im new to computers or not...as you can see I joined here 2 years before you even.... I just havn't changed my rig in 4 years, and dropped out of the scene of keeping up to date with hardware, and brand name situations...Ive built many computers, though I just care -alot- more than when I build them for other people...so im trying to renew my "vocab" by figuring out the smallest of details to get the best bang for the buck.


Edit- I will also be using windows XP Pro. I havnt kept up to date remotely with vista, suggestions on it? Maybe I can find a...free...version of it.

BlueMak

I wouldn't get an AMD graphics card now. (in case you don't know ATI is now AMD)
The best card on the market per $ is the 8800GT.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

kris23

all DDR2 sticks are JEDEC spec DDR2 800 handpicked to run at listed speeds. and since you are going to be getting XP Pro 32-bit, stick with 2 gigs of RAM

the DDR2 1200 RAM will be detected as DDR2 800 and will need to be manually adjusted to run at full power. though to use all 1200MHz, you will have to overclock.

in your case though, i would just run the memory at DDR2 800 at CAS 3-3-3-4 or whatever the sticks are capable of, it varies from stick to stick.

the video card is a bit of a budget choice, but it is far more powerful than your puny X850XT or the X1950PRO you selected and slightly lower than the 8800GTS you posted, but if you are going to get such an expensive graphics card, go for a much more powerful 8800GT (YES 8800GT not GTS or GTX)

the 8800GT card is nvidia's newest midrange card, its powerful, its cheap, and it beats the 8800GTS models 320 and 640 in almost all benches, the GTX only beats it by like 4 FPS average

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Ryguy786

Alright, though Im wondering how the GT beats it? Can you break these down for me? I mean I would just imagine the 320bit card being better...I guess theres less stream processors and 20mhz on the core clock, and with a bit of extra memory.

Newegg.com - XFX PVT88PYDF4 GeForce 8800GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

Newegg.com - XFX PVT80GGHD4 GeForce 8800GTS XXX 320MB 320-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail

The price is also the same after the rebate.

kris23

architecture man, Nvidia uses their newest engine of asskickery, the G92 core. it has more powerful stream processors, more stream processors, runs off a smaller 65nm fabrication process, so it runs cooler and overclocks higher. it also has superior HD rendering capabilities that the G80 core series doesnt have namely the 8800GTS 320 and 640, 8800GTX and 8800 Ultra dont have it and it frees CPU processes for more of what you really need it for.

just so you know, that 8800GT XXX edition is more powerful than a stock 8800GTX in most games and benches depending on the resolution.

if you want, just take a look at some 8800GT benches.

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kris23

just something to chew on

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews/8800GTs/index.php

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Ryguy786

Alright. Sweet man, thanks for the info

So...Im looking at this now.

Mobo
Newegg.com - ASUS P5K-VM LGA 775 Intel G33 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

CPU
Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Duo E6550 Conroe 2.33GHz 4M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

Ram
Newegg.com - Patriot Extreme Performance 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

or
Newegg.com - CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

Prob will go with the first.

Video Card
Newegg.com - XFX PVT88PYDF4 GeForce 8800GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
When it comes in....

I think thats the route ill go, and maybe ill get the cpu/ram/mobo and wait on the card til they come in. Any last thoughts?

cozumel

I think everyone is agreed that right now now the ATI GFX boards do not offer the same performance for gaming but they are better in certain other areas. It all depends what your primary use will be.

On the memory side of things I would prefer for go with more memory (4GB) at PC2-6400 or PC2-8000 than 2GB of PC2-9600 as you would get an overall better performance if you're not going to be overclocking.

I probably am a Gigabyte motherboard fanboy. They make rock-solid stable motherboards with top quality components all the way through their range. Check out the reviews and compare between the Gigabyte and any other contenders. But remember that your motherboard is the most important component in your whole rig. So, if you agree with that last statement then I would say the board I have suggested may not be what you want but then neither may the DFI. You could get a better model for example from either company and then cut back on initial memory & CPU costs. Depends on your total budget. Have I confused you yet lol? I'm confusing myself....

For everything that Kris, Bluemak and I have contributed to this thread only you can decide what your needs are and therefore what you will ultimately purchase. Research and check reviews as well as forums for user experiences. And then research a bit more.

And remember Luke, the force is strong within you. Do not give in to the dark side.

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kris23

man.... i knew this was gonna happen,

so you went out of that 600 dollar budget huh?

your motherboard is not a good choice, integrated graphics boards are very limited and sometimes unstable when using a graphics card like that. the BLOODIRON board is good but this is better.

Newegg.com - ASUS P5K-E/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail


CPU is good too, while i think its too far out of the budget, i recommend a Q6600
Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail

stick with 2 gigs if you are staying with XP, otherwise, if you get 4 gigs, you may have some OS issues. Vista x64 is better suited for 4 gigs of RAM

your memory choices are pretty bad..... I was just done awhile ago talking about how i recommend Crucial RAM so people would avoid that particular set of Corsair Memory dont buy the XMS2 Dominator 1066mhz, they are horrible performers for the price and are horrible in general. the cooling system on them is worth more than the memory on them.

stick with the 2 gigs of Transcend 1200MHz memory or Crucial Ballistix, i recommend Crucial because they have the best binned chips on the market. they can probably do 1200MHz too
Newegg.com - Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail



and the vid card..... theres no better choice!

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