khelben1979

Hello.

I would like to know what you people think about this.

Sometimes there are bad weather outside and the lightning can cause damage to the equipment in the apartment and I'm interested to know in different smart ways to protect the equipment at a low price and as seen above I've found a product which looks interesting but I have been unable to find any good reviews on it on the net, yet..

dj_stick

i could make a bad joke about the thread title, but i won't


surge protectors are always a good idea, though most won't stop a surge from a lightning strike hitting the powerlines close by- generally a UPS does a better job of that (it also cleans the power, so your PSU and other equipment will last longer)

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khelben1979

An UPS you say. Does a cheep UPS like this one do a good job? The Inform UPS offers: Automatic excitement regulation (AVR) EVIL indicators.

Syndicate2083

Well I am biased for my own company. However. In general, yes a UPS is something you are going to want to look at.

Things to keep in mind are that a computer is vulnerable to surges from multiple outlets. That being your AC outlet, and also your data lines. (Phone/DSL/Cable). Heres the thing.

You can place a unit on say, a surge protector. If you put that, and your cable modem on the surge protector, but you DO NOT protect the incoming coax line, you leave a backdoor open to damage your equipment. Same with a Phone Line, or DSL, whatever.

A UPS serves many functions, EMI/RFI filtering, AVR (on a decent model), Battery backup for graceful shutdowns, Protection from over/under voltages, power cleaning (though this is less a factor for something with a PSU as it converts all incoming AC into DC and effectively creates a voltage wall that filters those on its own. It is important to remember that over/under voltages can still effect the PSU in that it takes more energy to filter, and will place more wear and tear on it decreasing its efficacy and lifespan.)

With those things in mind, DO NOT go cheap if you want to back up your computer/equipment. APC (the company I work for) is an international, industry leader. There is a reason we are a 3 billion dollar company. Quality. Companies like Belkin and CyberPower and Yes, even you Tripp-Lite just don't deliver.

We offer products across the world, check out our website (apc.com) and take a look at the product. Whatever you go with. I highly highly recommend researching the product, the company, and the Certifications that they adhere to. If you place your nice kickass computer on a shoddy UPS or surge protector, don't be surprised when your PSU fries and the comp is toast.

Beyond that, you need to pay attention to the power needs of the computer, vs the available power of the UPS. There are two numbers, VA and Watt's. Now a computer is a variable load. That means that the PSU generally uses different amounts of power depending on what it is doing. A 500w PSU generally will not utilize all 500w. This is important to remember. Also, if your PSU is PFC (power factor corrected) it is important to realize that during start up it will most likely inrush its full capacity, this can also happen during transfer from online to on battery, depending on the transfer time and holdup time of your PSU and UPS setup. This means that 500w PSU which may only use 120w at full load, will draw 500w*1.2 upon startup/transfer. So, the lesson? DO NOT undersize!

Hope that helps a little.

** here is an example UPS for your region: https://www.apcc.com/resource/includ...otal_watts=200

an example surge protector: https://www.apcc.com/resource/includ...u=PF8VNT3%2DGR

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khelben1979

Then I will most probably NOT go for a cheep UPS when the time comes. I didn't know that cheep UPS could cause damage of the equipment, interesting.

Syndicate2083

Its not so much that it will 'cause' damage. It's that it will have cheap components and do a poor job of filtering and protecting your investment.

It would be akin to buying the best motherboard and CPU you can, and getting a really cheap 10$ PSU for it. If it is low quality, and has unstable rails, youll probably end up frying your stuff.

Same type of logic here, you get what you pay for (most of the time). So take a look at the company as a whole, the certs they uphold and test to, compliances, etc. Some no name brand and low price/quality components are going to get you a dead computer over time.

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Judas

i'm an APC fanatic...

problem is i have a hard time getting them in... it's like they went a-wall from alot of suppliers...


anyways..

a good UPS is never cheap..

expect to pay a premium on it.

However also consider that it's a one time insurance policy made on your system, alot of UPS that are made very well can last up to 10 years or longer depending on the conditions it has to go through.

In the time period a 100+ dollar investment can pay itself off within it's first year of use, a 200 dollar investment for a really good ups is a matter of 2 years.

All the machines i've setup with UPSs have always been problem free.

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Zelig

This is a good point, furthermore, coax and phone lines don't even go through the fuse box that power lines do.

I neglected to protect my dsl line last summer, and a lightning strike outside my house fried all the connected network ports on my network.

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procupine14

oh yeah Ive been witness to that very thing. Luckily the network that this cable modem was connected to was primarily wireless. so the only things that were really gone were the moden(of course) and the router

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Syndicate2083

Unfortunately either people do not think of it, or assume that it's not possible to get damage from a phone/coax line.

As Judas mentioned, the investment will definitely pay for itself over time. It is something that really will cut down the wear and tear on your PSU, safeguard data (things like voltage transients and weak grounds/unfiltered lines can wreak havoc on data transmissions leading to packet loss and longer transfer times due to lost data).

There are allot of reasons why it is important to pay attention to the entire picture with a computer. Unfortunately most people never realize that and the assume that allot of the problems they experience with data loss, lockups, packet drops, etc are all hardware related. This can be true, but often can be a result of poor, or inconsistent power. Especially in a very isolated, or storm prone area.

Take a look at this white paper that talks a bit about the different types of power problems, and the things that they can cause. If your interested.

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/V...KLPK_R0_EN.pdf

Also, we (APC) offer separate items called 'protectnet' devices to secure coax and ethernet/phone/dsl lines for surge protection if anyone has a need to do just that. FYI.

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RoyBatty

I bought a surge protector (APC PF8VNT3-FR) a few days ago, its only drawback is that it weakens the signal to my TV card. I was deciding between that and APC Back-UPS RS 1000 VA, but the UPS is a little too expensive for me at the moment, maybe when I get a new PC...

Syndicate2083

Yeah, the problem with any type of Coax surge protection or really anything that does it for a data line, is that its a connection break point.

So that means that the signal, on any break point and after a certain amount of distance begins to degrade. The only real solution for that, if its to the point where you have actual signal loss, is to try and shorten the cable run (or not use excessively long cables from the wall to your unit) or to remove splitters, or to remove other devices off of one coax/data circuit. The more items on the circuit, the more attenuation you will get.

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RoyBatty

The only thing I can do is to replace the supplied 1.8 m coax cable with a shorter one since I need less than half of the length, but I'm not sure this would help much.

dj_stick

using a higher quality cable should help, less signal loss through the cable, but the effet may be minimal (also check connections on all ends for any corrosion/oxidation)

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Syndicate2083

Definitely. Get some nice quality HD rated coax (this can make a big difference). Try to keep coax cable runs short (about 100m). If you have multiple floors in the house talk to the cable company about having a real repeater put into your incoming box if they only have it split for the whole house. This can be a major reason for loss. A typical, and bad, setup is one incoming line, split to each outlet in the house, then if you say have on for your cable modem, and split that to a TV, the entire run of the house is counted from each split and all length.

This can quickly lead to poor signals throughout. At the least, if the company is not willing to address the issue at the demarc (where your stuff enters the building) invest in some high quality splitters that have signal enhancers, good coax, and cut any extraneous cable lengths if at all possible.

This may cost some money, but it can definitely be worth it, as this would help with say net performance also. If your experiencing signal loss on your TV, just think about something like your net, if you have a cable modem.

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RoyBatty

Thanks for the advices guys, but I think i will leave it as it is. The quality loss is not that big.

H3X4D3C1M4L

I've been using APC UPS's for a while now. I can only say good things about them. I forget about them 99% of the time, then the 1% of the time that I need them, they're there doing exactly what I want them to

Seeing as we've been getting so much crappy, sodomite weather lately I've been glad to have the extra protection.

Syndicate2083

Glad to help. Hope everything works out ok. If you ever need any help with APC stuff or advice feel free to PM me or something. Same for everyone. Though I can't act in an official manner per se from here, I can definitely help you guys out.

-Syn

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khelben1979

I went for a pretty cheap surge protector from APC. Better than nothing. It says in the instructions that it can't protect my stuff when there is lightning, but it does offer some kind of protection.

H3X4D3C1M4L

That's what a surge protector does... protect from surges, i.e. those caused by a lightning strike...

Tyrsonswood

They protect from normal surges in the power line, very rarely can they protect from a lightning strike, that kind of protection calls for an isolation transformer.

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Syndicate2083

Well basically what happens is the unit tries to shunt to the ground of your building, now a normal 'surge' i.e. something not akin to lightning but a transformer blowing and a subsequent surge would be way less voltage than the lightning. It would be able to shunt most if not all of that to ground, and then when it does and there is still some left, it does let a portion through, but the rest gets absorbed in the internal components of the unit.

Something like lightning which can be 3-12k volts would max out our let through voltage potential, which is about 330v. While this is really good as far as percentages, yes it "Can" damage your gear. I really rarely see anyone that has properly used equipment and covered all their bases having fried equipment behind the surge protector though, and we do offer a claims process when if this ever happens (in the US at any rate).

What the unit would attempt to do with a voltage level of something like lightning is fail safe, basically passing all of the extra voltage into itself and the movs. (Metal Oxide Varister, if your wondering). When this happens it blows a heat fuse, and another normal fuse and cuts all posibility of power to the outlets themselves, chances are the high voltage will smoke a bit, bit most of the time your equipment should be fine.

We say that it 'wont protect' from lightning because we cannot garauntee that the voltage will be at a certain level from something like that, or that the unit will clamp the voltage fast enough if you take a nearly direct blast.

Hope that helps explain whats going on with that a little better

what you purchased is a decent start, but really i would suggest a full surge strip, also remembering about your data lines into the computer/router, or a flat out ups which is even better.

-Syn

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cozumel

Hey syn,

If I've already got surge protection all around the house. I have 3 computers all phone-lines, dsl and coax going through surge protection devices. Is it still adviseable to have a UPS? Are there any advantages with protection you get from a ups over and above a surge protector? I don't care about data backup during a power failure. But I do want to be filtered against low quality or noisy power supply (from utility supplier and/or from my domestic internal wiring)) and also surges/spikes etc. And protection against lightning too (although I know it is not guaranteed).

Basically I'm looking for the best possible protection I can get within my budget levels but am unsure exactly what product does what.

Thanks

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Syndicate2083

Well the UPS is primarily designed for graceful shutdowns during a power outage.

Basically your on the right track with the level of protection. The UPS is going to enhance the overall experience. It doesnt technically offer 'better' protection until you get to huge ass systems, however what they do do is take over when you have flakey power..

Something that can happen is say, you get a surge, comp drops, normal power, comp turns on, surge, drops, normal.. etc etc etc this is actually a common scenario after a power outage as the power grid needs to be over powered initially to get power to the end of the line, and it equalizes after a certain amount of time. People may notice, after a power outage stuff flickers, brightens more than normal, turns on/off when power is coming back, thats what Im talking about.

The UPS is going to keep your stuff off of the power roller coaster as this happens, or any other time that power becomes flakey. So the benefits are not a hard power down from an outage, protection from overvoltage/undervoltage by going to battery during them, and being on battery until power stabilizes in the event it starts to act wacky.

The actual surge protection itself doesnt change much from these products, and if you really dont want a battery solution, then as long as you cover all your bases as far as 'back doors' you should be fine.

Some people like to get our residential whole house surge protection unit, which clamps in at your main breaker and provides protection for the house itself from stuff like lightning.

If anyone happens to look into that, A - need an electrician to install it, B - you still want to use normal surge devices as things like ailing major appliances can cause surges on your internal circuit, bypassing the external house surge device. FYI. ( it costs about 270$ us for that device btw.. rated for 40 kAmps, 1 ns surge response time 5 yr warranty.. )

-Syn, any more questions, let me know

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cozumel

So, are you saying that a quality surge protector does or does not protect against the roller coaster effect. I live in an area (the ghetto) that is being 'regenerated' by the government following years of underinvestment. We are getting cuts to the supply quite often, maybe once a month or so, mostly at night but sometimes in the middle of the day. This will be continuing for a while I think.

Thanks

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Syndicate2083

Well the surge surpressor will guard against actual surges above a certain industry standard voltage level, but it wont protect you from sudden and constant voltage appearance and disappearance, which could be quite detremental as it has no way to provide steady voltage to your equipment during that period. Either its on, and providing whatever level of voltage is supplied, or theres a surge and its either below the fuse threshold and stays higher than normal or whatever.

The UPS, when sensing 'bad' voltage literally breaks the output outlets off of the input circuit and switches over to the DC battery bus keeping your gear actually separated from that circuit, thats the major benefit im talking about in this instance.

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cozumel

Thanks. It'll be the ups then for the the more expensive stuff and the standard surge protector for everything else

I may PM you sometime in the next few weeks to help finalise my choice.

+rep on its way

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cozumel

So, this BE-700UK would be okay for my home office then with pc, monitor,external hdd , fax/scanner/copier (all plugged into ups+surge protection sockets), and the speakers, router, lamp & digital phones (plugged into the surge only section)?

It has the all the necessary ports for dsl, phone, router. No coax though for my tv card I'd have to get a seprate surge protector just for the coax then I suppose.

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Syndicate2083

uhm that depends, is the computer youd put on it what you have in spec?

and what type of combo faxer/printer/copier do you have? laser/ink? power usage?

Id need wattage for each component to let you know what were looking at, or just send me the model numbers and ill check it out.

thanks for the rep by the way

-Syn

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cozumel

System is exactly as in the spec except for the DDR2. I''m getting delivery of a Dominator kit on Monday an they will be running bewteen 1100-1200MHz hopefully.

Printer/Fax/Copier/Scanner HP Photosmart C7280 (inkjet)

The external drive is a Maxtor OneTouch III 300GB connected via firewire that I got for nothing from a friend. Not software controllled, it's just used as a standard backup drive.

Speakers are Logitech X540 70W RMS

Auzentech Prelude 7.1 Soundcard

This is my router - The phone sits in a cradle on the router and draws its battery charge from the router

Thanks


Edit: forgot about the TV card - Hauppauge WinTV-NOVA-T-500

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