ps4128

many of you who may have read some of my old threads may be interested to know i am finally ditching my p4 hd 2400 agp machine and getting a new alienware!


however, i want to get something i can use for the next 5 or 6 years, so i want you guys to tell me if this is a quality system that will let me game worry free for a while (i will write my worries in parantheses):

intel quad core 2.88 ghz 12 mb cache ( i am concerned i may be spending too much for something that will not run games as fast as a dual core that has higher clock speeds. i dont like ocing.)

dual nvidia gtx 280s (pretty sure about this one, but 9800 gx2s are also an option)

4 gbs of 1066 mhz ram (would 2 gbs be better? i am on a tight budget)

physX acellerator (is this really necessary? it seems frivoulous, but if it will speed things up i will get it)

should i get liquid cooling, it seems unneccessary but it may help?



HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!



thanks guys

paul

Vikingod

First, if you have the ability to put the system together or can get the help, it's cheaper to build your own system.

If you aren't into hardcore overclocking, getting a liquid setup won't be benefitial for you.

If you are planning on using the computer for several years, 4 gigs of RAM is a must, as is the quad core, in my opinion. Multicore is getting more and more useful, and will continue to do so.

The new NV cards use the same Physx engine and do physics processing, so getting one of the stand alone cards won't be that useful if you go with the 280. You might want to wait a bit and see what ATI has to offer, I believe their next series of cards is set for release very soon (next week maybe?).

If you have the money, and have the ability to upgrade in the future, you might want to look into the up and coming motherboards which support DDR3. Not a huge deal right now (DDR3 is still pricey), but I'm of the opinion that having upgrade options is always good.

Tipstaff

I second this. If the idea is to have the computer last for 5 years, then DDR3 would be the way to go right now. If you ever decide to upgrade the ram in 2-3 years it will cost you a lot of money to buy DDR2 (probably what it would cost you to buy DDR3 right now), let alone be hard to find since it will be old tech by then.

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procupine14

yeah the way the tech is advancing as of late unless you grab product from the very cutting edge you will not have a machine to last you as long as you will like. i defintely support 4GB ram and most likely DDR3 if you can squeeze it

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ps4128

thanks for all your help!

i am going to scratch the liquid cooling and physX accelator, and am definitly getting 4 gbs of ddr3 ram. i would also love to build my own computer, and have in the past, but right now i am a little short on funds, otherwise i definitily would. the monthly financing is the only reason i can buy this now.

also, i think ati's reply to the gtx 280 is now out, or coming out shortly. which setup would benefit my purpose most, crossfire with a pair of those or sli with a pair of gtx 280s?

finally, is a 2.8 ghz quad core fast enough for serious gaming at resolutions above 1440x900 but below 1080p?

also, i want dx10 support but am leery about upgrading to vista, as i hear it is a ram hogger (though with 4 gs i shouldn't have to worry)



once again:

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mousey

Right let me fill you in a little on free memory.
Free memory that's sat there doing nothing looks pretty in the task manager but is in no way shape or form contributing to the speed of the operating system and is effectively wasted. Vista uses this memory that's sat twiddling it's thumbs to pre-cache applications and documents you open regularly so next time you open them, they open instantly because the files are already there and waiting.

This feature is known as superfetch, however it seems 8/10 news readers across the web (excluding dh of course) seem so ignorant they refuse to read the features for the operating system, take one look at the task manager and go "Wtf" despite the fact that their system would be noticeably faster.

I'd say a 2.8GHz quad core would be fine for gaming at that resolution but it depends largely on the graphics card. A Single 9800GX2 would be far more than sufficient for playing games that are out now at that resolution, if you can go SLi with them then hell you're sorted for the next 2/3 years i'd say.

You'd definately need a good case and PSU if you want to run a 9800GX2, and do you have a motherboard you'd like to use? If not we'll help you pick one out based on our own experiences.

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OldBuzzard

Once again..Vista does NOT "hog" RAM.

Vista uses ram differently and in a much more effective way than XP.

I'm sitting here with Vista Ultimate 64 running on 8GB RAM. Now, with Task Manager open I'm seeing 3087 Free. For those that don't know any better, that looks like it's hogging the RAM. However, what Vista does is pre-load certain aplications into RAM so that when I want to open them, it does it almost instantly, instead of having to wait for the system to go to the HDD and read that application into memory, and then open it. Should an applicatrion need some of that 'pre-loaded' RAM, Vista instantly releases it.

Read up on SUPERFETCH. Once you understand that, then you will see just how ignorant the 'Vista hogs RAM" statement is.

Now, as for Water Cooling. I WC using a Koolance Exos, and have been doing so since my old Athlon 1.2 system. I WC for 2 reasons. First for extending the life of my CPU and GPU. When you keep electronic components as cool as you can, they work more efficently, and last longer. Second, I like the fact that I can get low temps, and still have a QUIET system. I'm not a huge Overclocker, but I did run the 1.2 T-Bird at 1.4, and I'm running this 4800+ at 2.625 as opposed to 2.5 stock. Not a huge OC, but it does give a wee bit more performance.

Mousey, looks like we were writing at the same time with pretty much the same ideas.



It amazes me that there are people that will load up their computers with a lot of RAM, and then bitch because the system uses it. I put RAM into my system to be USED, not to sit there looking pretty. Vista does that, and does it better than any previous OS.

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ps4128

ok take it easy!

i haven't bought a computer in a while and i was just asking to make sure it wasn't true.

thanks for the advice though. i may start out without liquid cooling, then add it later (i assume that is possible). i am very tech savvy, and have replaced everything in my current rig except for the processor and mobo.


thanks for the advice on vista. hearing what you guys have said, plus dx 10, has made up my mind in favor of getting. is 64 bit the way to go? remember that my comp is strictly for gaming, i have others for work, etc.


also i am more inclined to go with the gtx 280, mainly because i believe it will last longer that the 9800, and has technology that will improve with better drivers. i want to go sli for the same reason.

i am half inclined to wait for ati's hd 4870 x2, but i have had such bad experiences with them in the past that i cant imagine giving another cent of mine to them.

anyway, here is how the system is shaping up so far. if i can make up my mind on these things i will order it on the 1st of july.

alienware area 51

quad core 2.8 ghz 12 mb cache

ddr3 mobo w/ 4 gbs of 1066 low latency ram

dual nvidia gtx 280s in sli

300 gb hd with 10000 rpm

1000 watt psu

sound good?

OldBuzzard

OH, I wasn't 'going off' on you. Just the people that spread that BS around.

Since you are specing out a botique system, I'd HIGHLY suggest that you take a look at what MAINGEAR has to offer. While not well known to most people, they are one of, if not the best, of the botique builders.
Maingear PC | Redefining Your Definition Of The Ultimate Gaming PC.

Whilst I'm not a big fan of the site's founder, hardocp has done some nice reviews of pre-built systems, and Maingear has always fared well in them.
[H] Enthusiast - Maingear F131

I know that Alienware has been around for a long time now, but lately their reputation has been something less than stellar.

I'm not recommending one over the other, as it's YOUR $$ we are speaking about here, and you are the one that's going to have to be happy with the result. I'm just offering a look at something else just in case you didn't know about them.

Adding watercooling later is definately possible. Especially with something like the Koolance Exos, since it's an external setup as opposed to internal. The only downside would be that you will have to remove the MB to install the CPU block. There are damned few, if any, watercooling setups, where that can't be avoided.

EDIT:

OH, yeah, 64 bit definately. Especially if you want to use more than 4GB of RAM. Like mousey and I said, Vista likes RAM and will use it. I've ran Vista on 2GB, 4GB, and now 8GB, and with each boost in the available amount of RAM, Vista just gets better and better.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

ps4128

thanks

i checked them out and they seem good, but dont offer a motherboard supporting ddr3

i dont think they offer monthly financing either. i really need that.


their systems are soooo much cheaper and better valued though.


i will continue to look

kris23

DDR3 is rather worthless if you are not overclocking so if you will just stick with a system as is, then get DDR2

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PangingJr

about the "DDR3-1066", ps4128.

if you want to overclock the system, then you might want to consider buying a higher speed memory than DDR3-1066,
you are not require to use a higher speed memory when overclocking your system, but the system and memory performace should be better with a higher speed memory.

so, if you buy a C2Q 1333MHz processor like Q9450, this one had a default CPU FSB of 333MHz,
and if you don't plan to overclock it too high, say you only want its FSB to be at only 400MHz,
then you may want to buy DDR3 1600, a 4GB (2x2GB) of DDR3-1600, as of now, are still at a high price, but not too high to buy it if you really want one, i guess.

and if you get a C2Q 1066MHz processor like Q6600, this one had a default CPU FSB of 266MHz,
and if you don't plan to overclock it too high, say you only want its FSB to be at only 333Mhz,
then you may want to buy DDR3 1333 at least, a 4GB (2x2GB) of DDR3-1333, as of now, as far as i know, are selling at the price of not too high like it used to be a few months ago.

ps4128

thank you for the info kris 23 and pangingjr.


i've been told so many different things about memory in the past two days that i'm not sure what i'l do at this point. i wil say this: although i have the technical know how and ability to o/c, ive never been big fan of it. i will upgrade to a higher clock speed if i decide to some point down the road.

anyway, i'm pretty sure about what i'm going to get now. i have been told good things about amd's new quad core phenom 2.5 ghz, but like i said, i want gtx280s and almost no company offers them together, except maingear(thanks old buzzard), which i am still considering (i will buy from them if i find out they offer a montly payment plan. can anybody tell me if they do?)

anyway heres the system so far:

alienware area 51

Intel® Core™ 2 Quad Q9550 2.83GHz 12MB Cache 1333MHz FSB

Alienware® 1000 Watt Multi-GPU Approved Power Supply

Dual 1GB NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 280

4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1066MHz - 2 x 2048MB

160GB SATA 1.5Gb/s 10,000RPM 16MB Cache




check this out and tell me if it is worth the pricetag of 4,100.


also, to reiterate what i said above, if anyone can tell me if maingear offers monthly financing, or can suggest a cheaper retailer that does, i am all ears.



boy, i cant wait till i can clear my head enough to order this system.

Neshi

I'm really wondering if the pricetag can't be alot lower if you put that system together yourself, but as you said you can't buy it without the monthly payment deal, so that's out of the question. The price just seems so high to me...

what I'm also wondering. Aren't there mobo's that support both ddr2 and ddr3, because I was under the impression ddr3 was only worth it if you were going 1600+, otherwise ddr2 was the way to go performance wise.
And if there were mobo's out there that support both memory modules, it might be a nice idea to get ddr2 at this point, and maybe upgrade to ddr3 in the future.

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kris23

why dont you go to newegg and apply for one of those newegg credit cards and get no payments for 90 days or longer.....

chances are that the cost of a good base system would be low enough that you would be able to pay it within that time.....

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ps4128

thats a good idea, i will have to check it out

Syndicate2083

Ok yeah, I mean alienware.. well is alienware. They make a living, can't fault that. I do however get pissed off at their prices.

So. Here is a spec out via newegg of 'your' system, link is to a public wishlist i made up with links and pricing:

Newegg.com - Once You Know, You Newegg

basically.

Here is what it includes

Antec 1200 case (i like it, choose what you want haha) $214.95
Same proc $554.99
OCZ Gold 2GB DDR3 1066 x2 $201.98
WD 150GB Raptor X 10k RPM $174.99
CoolerMaster Real Power 1000w 80plus PSU (80 plus rocks!) $229.99
EVGA 790i SLi Ultra mobo (obviously for your SLi setup) $349.99
EVGA gtx280 1g FTW edition x2 $1,399.98

System total, not counting any other custom cooling and whatnot, $3,126.87

Consider the newegg, it is your friend.

Anyone else, feel free to jump in there if the combo doesnt seem good on anything

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-Crash the silence for the sake of memory.

Intrinsic Realities, Veteran-USN.

OldBuzzard

NO, not just no, but HELL NO!

How about you just call the Maingear folks, and ask. At worst all they can do is tell you no.

Another option, depending on your credit, would be a personal loan from your bank. Which just might be at a better rate than Alienware (Dell) gives you.

kris23's suggestion of getting the NewEgg card has merit also.

If that is a viable option, and Syndicate2083's wish list looks like something close to what you want, I'd suggest a couple of options there.

CASE: If you want a full Tower, the Cooler Master Cosmos 1000 would be a good choice and would be 25.00 cheaper. If a mid-tower would work, then the Cooler Master RC590 at 69.99, or CM 690 at 84.99 are both excellent cases, and will have plenty of room for the video card(s).

PSU: If you go with any of the above cases, go for the CORSAIR 1000HX. Probably the best 1000W PSU there is. it.s 40.00 more than the Cooler Master, but it's also modular and will make cable management a lot easier.

Video card: THe nVidia 280 is a damned fast card, but...looking at how fast the ATI 4850 is at just 199.99 as opposed to 699.99 for a 280!? Also, we still haven't seen what the 4870 is going to do, and it's projected to sell at 399.99. I'd wait until the 4870 is released, and see how if performs before I made my choice. It would be a real kick in the head to get 1400.00 worth of nVidia cards, only to find out that 800.00 worth of ATI's out perform them.

Decision, decisions...shucks it isn't even my system, and I'M getting a headache

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Syndicate2083

I agree here with OldBuzzard absolutely.

Secondly, nice call on the PSU, I recommended the Antec because i love it, just cant get used to the CM case design (external) myself.

VC's, yeah. I just ran with what you had there really. If you go ATI with their new uber cards youd obviously want to switch to a nice new intel chipset for your crossfire setup instead of the nvidia chipset board.

Hopefully we will see some life from ATI with the AMD injection, and a stronger offering again. Competition FTW.

The 4850 is a damned impressive card and super cheap for its offering.

Hope these thoughts help you out man!

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-Crash the silence for the sake of memory.

Intrinsic Realities, Veteran-USN.

PangingJr

just finished up reading the post #7 that OldBuzzard has made above. good post.

ps4128,

Free RAM is wasted RAM, as far as i know, was known to (and understood by) some Windows users for a very long time already,
but not to some, as it's obvious that we still hearing complaints about free RAM in Windows around the web till these days.

"Unused RAM is wasted RAM" is new motto for "Free RAM is wasted RAM"

when you see the number of the "unused" RAM in Vista is less (than what you use to see in an older Windows version), it doesn't actually mean that you are having less "free RAM".
i also like to add that it's true, that the memory management in Vista RTM has improved over a few last BETA builds of Vista (and also XP) quite noticeable.
if you always use Windows-based computer a lot for sometimes already, then since Vista RTM and now SP1, you will most likely see the memory management in Vista is actually working so well.

ps4128

thanks everyone. i just woke up. it seems my issue is driving you all mad as well.

anyways, if a newegg credit card would allow me to lump all of those together into one manageable monthly fee, i will definately do it. i love building computers .


also, old buzzard, of all the companies i checked out, maingear had the lowest prices, and were the most similar to buying it all and assembling it. it just kills me how much big name dealers like alienware mark up their prices and think they can get away with it. i think i will call/e-mail them later today. right now this stupid comptuter is all im thinking about, and i would love to stick to my goal of ordering it in the first week of july.

this wasn't all that confusing or expensive five years ago. oh well.


p.s. if you guys have read any of my older posts you probably know i despise ati and all of their drivers/support. honestly if they had a faster card than nvidia, i'd still look at nvidia first. anyway, saying that, the 4850 looks like a good card, but i'm not waiting til august for the x2 version.

Syndicate2083

haha, I personally hate ati myself as well. Long stories id rather not get into, but thats how it is. Let us know what maingear says, and what avenue you take, I know I'd like to hear what they say, or if you go newegg!

Good luck!

-Syn

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-Crash the silence for the sake of memory.

Intrinsic Realities, Veteran-USN.

kris23

well..... nearly all companies abandoned AGP so its no surprise that the ATi drivers suck on AGP platforms......

but then again, nvidia abandoned AGP development completely now so its something vs nothing...

i personally like ATi because their drivers work very well compared to those of Nvidia, especially in multi-GPU configurations......

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Syndicate2083

You know, honestly ive never had a single problem with nVidia drivers or configurations but every ATi setup ive ever had has gone down the tubes in flaming glory. I never buy off brand stuff, and always make sure a company is reputable too so who knows. Its just like the voodoo nvidia wars, love em or hate most people side with one or the other due to bizzare situations.

-Syn

__________________
-Crash the silence for the sake of memory.

Intrinsic Realities, Veteran-USN.

ps4128

yeah you guys are absolutely right about the nvidia/ati wars. syndicate2083, i have also had issues with both of my prior ati cards, but never with both of my prior nvidias. it all comes down to what you want to sacrifice, stability (and performance to some extent) for ati or cash for nvidia. i'm torn between getting a loan for a maingear (seeing as they don't support monthly financing) or spending $600 more for an alien. newegg may also still be an option.

i have, on a more positive note, bought a brand new computer desk for whatever machine i end up with, as well as a new gaming keyboard and high resolution 1500 dpi mouse, and widescreen monitor.

so basically, when i make my mind up, i will be all set

kris23

who filled your head with the lies that nvidia was stable???

they hardly are..... the boards anyway, with the exception of 790i..... especially when OCing

thats why everyone here prefers Intel chipsets, but that also means choosing ATi, which is kinda funny since ATi is AMD.....

why not get a loan for newegg? its better, way better.

but the whole nvidia vs ATi thing is getting really interesting, especially since ATi is to use GDDR5 on their 4870s and X2s maybe...

and the 4850 being a budget card blew down the 9800GTX and is equivalent to slightly lower compared to the 9800GTX+

if the 4870 touches the GTX series even in the slightest in the high res of 1920x1200 and above, we got outselves a winner!

you are going to need to get to the best of the best stuff if you really want to play, but the thing is that DDR3 is real new technology and the stuff hasnt been under developnet for that long........ i dont think systems can use more than 4GB of DDR3 reliably....

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kris23

if you want to build a system that is beyond anything you have ever seen before, you probably would want to look at this.....

Newegg.com - Intel BOXD5400XS Dual LGA 771 Skulltrail D5400XS Extended ATX Motherboard - Intel Motherboards

a compromise-less board with the ability of running both SLi and Crossfire without any changes, the use of FB-DIMMs and Dual Core 2 Extreme Quads......

this will probably be able to compete with a Nehalem Desktop next year if needed////

if you were set on buying an Alienware, this would be similar in cost.

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ps4128

thanks kris.

btw... i never said nvidia in general was stable, i only remarked that in all of my experiences with them i have never had an issue, whereas in all of my ati experiences i have had major issues (usually ending in hard drive formatting)

anyway i will check out your link. i may buy even sooner than i thought, because i am getting my paycheck sooner than i thought.


i will keep you guys posted.

ps4128

i just checked out that motherboard


i think it is overall much cheaper to save up and build a system, but i haven't in a while.

could you guys help me out by making newegg wishlists with everything i need to fit my 5 year life?
everything, fans, case, etc.

use the above intel mobo, and 280 gtxs (preferably in sli)

keep in mind my previously specified system, and try to keep it under 3,500 $.


thanks!

kris23

lol k

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