genieguru

my dad really needs a new computer as of now
not because the present one is slow but because its too darn power hungry,hot and noisy and it isn't doing the power bills any favours

he works for shipping company so he requires his computer to be on atleast 12 hrs a day,to check mail,type documents,make presentations etc...
And the occasional use of winrar and video encoding(for ipod)

as of now his system has a P4 prescott(just like my old rig)
And it isn't exactly making the world a greener place

So i need something for him that is low power(as low idle power as possible and ofcourse lower than the present system),decent performance(good at multi-tasking etc....) and low noise(i can hear the present computer from my room)

So which would be the better deal?
Phenom x4/x3 or Athlon x2 + 780G or Core 2 Duo/Pentium E + G45(as and when it comes out)

Time isn't of the essence for this one,so please take ur time in replying
Thanks in advance

PS:I was considering getting him to buy the Asus Eee Box when it comes out,but i really don't know how the Atom processor will perform relative to a P4
But 30 watt max power consumption is really tempting,does anyone have any idea about the performance of the atom?

temeteus82

I think that the new low power Phenoms are the ones that you are looking for. If he don't need the speed of C2D...

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genieguru

^^An AMD platform is cheaper than an intel one ATM aren't they?

And what would ur opinion of atom be?
That consumes the least power?Do u happen to know if it performs better than or anywhere near a Pentium 4 proc?

temeteus82

I don't have any idea how atom will perform. But I think it might be a bit better than P4....

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OldBuzzard

Would a decent Laptop with a docking bay do what he needs?

Lappy wouldn't be all that energy hungry or noisy, and the docking station would allow him to use his existing monitor, KB, and mouse.

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kris23

laptops are expensive though... and for a good one that runs reliably and cooly a better PC can be built...

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OldBuzzard

Well, he's not looking for an 'uber gaming system'. Just something for general usage. Lots of lappys in the 550-600 range that would fit.

Plus, the main specs are for quiet, and low power usage. I know that you can build a good PC for less than a lappy, but if running it needs an auxillary diesel generator, and keeping it cool makes it sound like a F4-C Phantom on 'burners', then it's not what he's looking for

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genieguru

@oldbuzzard-
U just described his present computer quite well in your last paragraph

never really thought about a laptop before for his kinda thing..... i guess he didn't either

i guess he'll be leaning towards a low power PC with decent specs,but if a laptop is as good while being quiet and consuming less power,i guess thats a go too

so what would u suggest in for laptops?can u gimme specs for a low power(but snappy) PC too please

swimtech

The idea of a decent desktop replacement laptop is really tempting, except for the usage pattern - it "needs" to be on 12 hours a day. Laptop batteries go bye-bye in a hurry when they're used like that, and the major manufacturers don't warranty them beyond the first year even if you buy extended warranty coverage. He'd need to use the battery down and charge it back once every couple weeks habitually to keep that from happening - then he'd get the benefit of portablity besides...

I saw This Acer sometime last week when a friend asked me to recommend one. Granted, I've no first hand experience with the units from Acer, but they OEM for others with good reputations, and the specs look outstanding. If it's out of your budget, use it as a basis for comparison...

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OldBuzzard

Yeah, battery life is why I suggested a docking station. That way it would run off wall power most of the time anyway. Plus it would allow him to use a larger display, and quite possubly get dual monitor capability by using the lappys screen too.

I'm not really 'up' on laptops, but I know that, contrary to their PCs, Dell's laptops seem to have a pretty good reputation. The IBM/Lenovo seem to be very good too, but I'm thinking that they may be a bit on the $$ side.

The OP didn't mention a budget number, so that would be something to consider too.

EDIT:

HMMM... Newegg has a Lenovo that doesn't look 1/2 bad. Newegg.com - ThinkPad R Series R61i(77322FU) NoteBook Intel Core 2 Duo T5450(1.66GHz) 14.1" Wide XGA 1GB Memory 120GB HDD 5400rpm DVD±R/RW Intel GMA X3100 - Laptops / Notebooks

Add the docking station: Newegg.com - ThinkPad 250410U Advanced Mini Dock with US/Canada/LA Line Cord - Replicators / Docking Stations

and you are still under $1,000.

Not the fastest horse in the race, but decent specs, and not as much $$ as I was expecting. In fact, cheaper that Dell. It could (like most lappys I've seen) use a bit more RAM, but even lappy DDR2 RAM is pretty cheap now.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

genieguru

@swimtech-

By ruining the battery,did u mean messing up the charge cycles of Lithium ion batteries?

@old buzzard-
By running the laptop off the wall,the battery doesn't get to discharge right?so wouldn't that again cause the trouble swimtech mentioned?

As for the budget the pc/laptop should be "as cheap as possible"
But if u want a figure,i guess it'll have to be "as far below $1000 as possible" for the above mentioned requirements

anyway can u also (or anyone else for that matter) please suggest specs for a PC for my dad
Same budget and requirements

Tipstaff

Want low power drain? Try the Intel D201GLY2 motherboard. It's a mini-ITX board with a builtin Conroe-L 1.2GHz 533mhz bus Celeron soldered right onto the board, yet only requires 19 watts to run. It comes in passive or fanned (which is the GLY2A) flavors, has 2 SATA 1.5GB ports, 1 IDE, 1 RAM slot (max 1GB ram), and 6 USB (2 on the back, 4 onboard via headers). If you put a complete system together, that being the board, 1 stick of ram, DVD burner, and a small case with a 250 watt PSU, in total you'd only be drawing about 110 watts max (when fully utilized). Leave out the DVD burner, and you'd only be drawing 80 watts max. Can't remember what idle or sleep pull was. BTW, total cost for a system (without monitor/keyboard/mouse)? $200.

Speed wise they are pretty decent. This is not, however, a presentation machine. The best way to do this would be to have a seperate machine for heavier duty purposes, one that won't be run all the time (thereby not drawing power), and have this one for everything else.

BTW, laptops can draw as much as a regular desktop. 200+ watts when fully running, 100 watts or so when in idle, and lower as Windows goes through it's various power reduction/sleep phases. One thing about laptops is that you can adjust how much is being pulled by disabling or removing devices. Laptops use up to 60 watts just to charge a battery, so when it's charged, pull it. Don't need the DVD drive? Pull it to save 20 watts. Don't need Wi-Fi on? Turn it off to save 20 watts.

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Syndicate2083

Excellent points there Tipstaff. Laptops get away with the perception of being low power, but in reality that isn't always the case, especially with all of the new technologies, it eats up allot of power.

Make sure to look at power specs carefully if you go with a laptop, they really are mostly on an even keel with a basic desktop these days, so unless he really wants mobility, building a cheaper low end PC is most likely your best bet.

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genieguru

@tipstaff-
I like the idea of the board u suggested
Low cost and low power,and should be quiet too
What about performance?
Will it be better than a 3 ghz P4 say in video encoding?(DVD rip to ipod mp4)

I found an intel 945G board with an atom proc. soldered on it,in a store nearby for about $75
Do u have any idea how this would fare compared to ur solution or the present P4?
(i know for sure it'll consume much less power)

And do laptops really suck up 200+ watts?
I can understand gaming laptops doing that,but budget ones too?

@syndicate-
Discrete GPU isn't required at all
And mobility isn't a big requirement either cause he only makes the presentation at home in power point
he takes it in a pen drive to where ever he needs to deliver it

So i guess its settled
Low cost PC it is
Now for specs with decent performance and as low idle power draw as possible(load power doesn't really matter since it rarely under load)

Just for reference,the present system eats up about 100W just sitting in idle(as per extreme power supply calculator)

swimtech

Yes, if you'd decided to go with a laptop, using it constantly off wall power bypasses the battery altogether - it stays fully charged all the time and never gets discharged then recharged. Using a laptop that way greatly reduces the mobile useage time and can cause premature battery failure.

Tip, I have to take issue with you on your power figures for laptops. I've measured the power consumption on my MacBook Pro with a Kill-A-Watt meter. It draws 30 watts at idle - screen on full brightness - not Folding (that's the machine I Fold@Home with) - no hard drive activity - wireless on. While folding (CPU use set to 50% but winds up using about 70% activity on one of the two cores), the unit uses 50 or so watts. These figures are with the battery fully charged running off the AC Adaptor. The AC Adaptor is rated at 85 watts max output - so I would think the machine even at full load can't draw more than that...

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Syndicate2083

Well I have seen really high end gaming laptops get into the 100-150w range. Normally most laptops i see fall between 50-90w. Though, a low end PC can easily do about the same.

/shrug

-Syn

__________________
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swimtech

Yeah, I can believe that, with dual high end video cards, a raid array, 4G of ram, and a 17" display - running Prime95 on all cores.

Remember too, the power consumption of a laptop includes the display. A desktop LCD display uses 40W minimum while on. A CRT uses 100W or more. If a prime consideration of the machine is power consumption, you cannot beat a laptop.

I was wondering where Tip might have gotten that information, 'cause his advice is always wonderful and I've learned a lot reading his posts over the years. I'm sure it's not from his own measurements of a current mainstream model - he's a thoughtful professional who is one of the very best at what he does, and would never knowingly mislead anyone! I'm not demeaning his word at all intentionally, honest. If This Test is what he's referring to, it is very misleading. The power consumption figures shown there are not just for the individual component he says he's testing, but for the entire system while using the component he is focusing on to the max. The Dell m1330 he's testing there uses 63 watts while running Prime95 on both cores (CPU usage is 100% in that test) for the entire system.

Power consumption of any recent model, mainstream laptop is really low compared to any desktop system, 40 to 50 watts while running an app like PowerDVD or Photoshop, with email, a browser and antivirus running too - a routine day to day use scenario. I was surprised when I measured mine just a couple months ago - and the difference between what was stated and what I know to be true is huge - more than a 50% difference, so I was compelled to say something.

The performance of laptop I referred to, as an example, will handily beat his Dad's present desktop system using only those 50 watts or so, again, display included - and it would be a nice upgrade. BTW, the non-upgradeable Celeron 1.2Ghz processor on that board may not perform even as well as his Dad's present P4, especially if he puts Vista on it.

That being said, I'd have to recommend a better desktop mainboard and processor. How about:

This Intel G35 Board or
This Asus G35 Board
with an E7200 2.53Ghz Core 2 dual core processor. The two of those together is about 250.00 - fast, capable for any office, and expandable too. Case (40), PSU (50), hard drive (50), optical drive (30), and 4G of memory (80) brings the total to $460, so less than $500 with shipping and a mouse/keyboard set. No OS or monitor yet. That's all doable for less than $800.

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genieguru

@swimtech-

ur macbook pro does have a 8600M GPU in it right?
and even with that it only draws 30 watts at idle??? i'm amazed.....
i don't think any PC can go that low(with the display ON)

but i am kinda worried about the charge cycle thing with the battery

the present system consumes 100W
and its on for 12 hrs a day
now if the system is replaced with something that uses 30W,its going to result in some major savings

Is there any work around for the charge cycle problem?(an efficient/convenient one??)
Cause right now 15.4" inch laptops with decent specs aren't all that expensive at all and it'll outperform the present system by miles

Tipstaff

Swimtech, your right. I should have clarified, and said that laptops "can use up to 200+ watts". As you mentioned in your last post a full out laptop, one that would be comparable to a desktop computer can draw a lot of power. While I wasn't using Coding Horrors article as a baseline, I have seen that one before (and the one before it), and your right, it's very misleading.

I have to be honest here, and say that I shouldn't have mentioned that total in that way. Actually, I shouldn't have mentioned it at all really. I mentioned it as an extreme case, and I did intended to clarify that most mainstream laptops don't hit that high. The last tests I did on a mainstream laptop was a year ago, and at that time I was getting pulls as much as 90 watts. That, apparently, seems to be old news as to what most laptops pull these days. At this point I think I'm going to keep away from posting laptop wattage pulls. Seems that I haven't kept up with it as I should have.

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genieguru

talked it over with my dad
and he wants to get a laptop
the 30-50W power consumption figure really got him convinced
not to mention the space savings incurred

but the catch is that he wants a laptop with a 17 inch screen

so can u guys come up with a low power,decent performance 17 inch laptop,within the $1000 budget(its ok if it goes a little over it,but not too much)

And is Dell any good?

swimtech

No, mine's the original MacBook Pro with X1600 Pro ATI graphics - wish it was the 8600 though! However, the power consumption on even the more powerful present models (they're about 30% more powerful, with nicer displays too - LED backlighted you know, with glossy screen - yummy!) is about the same or slightly better than mine. The MacBooks consume a good deal less power 'cause they use onboard graphics and smaller screen.

There is no workaround for the battery issue that I'm aware of - just something to take into account. I run mine down once a month or so - but I am starting to notice a decrease in portable time. It'll run about an hour and fifteen now - it was over two hours when new, but it's over two years old now too. The only time the battery will draw 50+ watts is when the computer is off and charging a drained battery. It'll charge the battery in a couple hours, then stop drawing juice. If you charge while running the machine, it distributes power dynamically in real time - some to charge your battery, and some to run the machine.

Laptop hard drives on full use only about 5 watts on average now - that's no more than a night light in your bedroom - amazing. All the other components in a laptop are likewise optimized for power usage, even the chips used on the mainboard. And, that technology is edging its way into desktop components now too - this is a big initiative for manufacturers worldwide now. Even performance desktop hard drives (other than the 10,000rpm Raptors or some SCSI drives) use only about 10-15 watts full on. If I hadn't been really involved with this over the past year, and use one regularly, I likely wouldn't know this stuff - no one person can know everything, no matter how industrious or intelligent they are - though like you Tipstaff - I wish I could...

Laptops with 17" displays for about a $1000? I've never looked until just this minute, and Acer has the 17" (1440x900 resolution) version of the laptop I mentioned earlier in here for $1250 plus shipping. Dell has one too with the same specs for the same price! There's a bunch more of them too - from a lot of manufacturers - three pages worth at NewEgg, for example. But, I don't have any firsthand experience with any of them other than Apple, Dell, Lenovo, and Gateway...

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OldBuzzard

What size/type monitor does he use now?

If he already has a 17" or larger LCD then most lappys would be able to run that as well as it's own screen. That would allow him to look at something with a smaller screen, and save a bit of $$.

When I had to RMA my PSU, I was using an older Sony Vaio, and was running my 24" WS CRT with it, and had dual monitor capabilitiy with the lappy's screen. I was also using my MX Revolution mouse with it using the lappys USB

Using a standalone monitor with the lappy will use a bit more power, but if its an LCD it wouldn't be all that much, especially if he allows the system to put it in standby when he isn't using the system.

As far as worrying about battery life. I'm betting that once he gets a lappy, that he will be using it as a lappy at places other than home, and will be discharging the battery enough to minimize the problem.

I'm still thinking that a docking station along with the lappy woud be a good idea, as it will allow for easy connection to all the periphials, and making it easy to take the lappy with him if necessary, as he wouldn't have to unplug all the periphials if/when he wants to use the lappy as a lappy.

BUT, if he's set on a 17" lappy then, this looks pretty good @ $1,049.00 after rebate.
Newegg.com - lenovo IdeaPad Y710(59013787) NoteBook Intel Core 2 Duo T5550(1.83GHz) 17.0" Wide XGA+ 3GB Memory 250GB HDD 5400rpm Dual layer DVD Burner ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2600 - Laptops / Notebooks

Also, here is a page with lappys similar to the above. The Asus with the HD 3470 video looks interesting too.
Newegg.com - 250GB, 100GB - 250GB, 17.0", 17" - 17.1", Intel Core 2 Duo, Laptops / Notebooks, Laptops & Accessories

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genieguru

@swimtech-

So as of now,i can't really go wrong in terms of power consumption no matter which laptop i pick for him

@old buzzard-
i really don't see the big deal with the docking station other than a couple of extra ports?

and i found this really neat Acer laptop
it has a 16 inch screen instead of a 17 inch one,but has quite good specs and costs a little over $1000 with shipping and tax
Newegg.com - Acer Aspire AS6920-6441 NoteBook Intel Core 2 Duo T7500(2.20GHz) 16" Wide XGA 3GB Memory DDR2 667 250GB HDD DVD Super Multi NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT - Laptops / Notebooks

also i read on some site that i could be able to customize the laptop further(i.e tone it down by getting rid of the dedicated GPU etc..) if i get in touch with an Acer retail office

and this is the 17 incher
Newegg.com - Acer Aspire AS7720-6844 NoteBook Intel Core 2 Duo T5450(1.66GHz) 17.0" Wide XGA+ 2GB Memory DDR2 667 250GB HDD 5400rpm HD DVD-ROM / Super Multi NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS - Laptops / Notebooks

so b/w those 2 which would u go for?

the reason i'm sticking to Acer is because my dad has had one good experience with Acer,when he bought his Travelmate from them a couple of years back
and they had good customer service too

and would there be any need for a docking station for those 2 models?

OldBuzzard

A docking station would be more for convience than anything else. Especially if he's going to be using an external monitor, and a full sized mouse. Would make it a lot easier to "un-plug and go" if/when he wants to take the lappy somewhere.

One of the reasons I pointed to the Lenovo, and that one Acer is that they have ATI graphics. With the just announcd "issues" with some nVidia lappy graphics, I'd be leery of them. At least until I did some in depth research to find out just which ones they are having problems with.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

genieguru

@old buzzard-
i did read about the geforce GPU problems

but like i said,i'll try to get a version of either laptop with integrated graphics,since the gaming takes pretty much no priority here,a GPU is something that can be done without

Tipstaff

genieguru, I forgot to respond to your question about performance between the Celeron board I mentioned, and the Atom based ones. From my use of the 2 the Atom (in this case the 230) just can't keep up with that Celeron 220. It does what it does just fine, so things like surfing the net, office work, and so fourth are fast enough, but add in multimedia stuff, such as video streaming, and it just sucks. The performance just isn't there for anything beyond the basics. The good thing is it draws way less power. Fully loaded an Atom system doesn't usually draw more than 40 watts. Mind you, this is a desktop type unit with an Atom based board, so the drain is the other components of the system since Atom CPUs only draw from 2 to 8 watts depending on which of the 3 flavors you buy (according to Intel, Atoms used in ultra portables draw 2 watts, while the mainstream single core draws 4, and the dual core 8 watts). Atom based laptops will, of course, use way less than that. They'd pull probably an average of 20-30 watts for the mainstream Atom based laptops, and 10-15 watts for the ultra portable ones.

The reason I mention this, even though you've decided to get the laptop, at least you know what to expect from the Atom based laptops. For what you need, these aren't it.

If you go with Acer for your laptop be sure to look at their extended warranty. The first year of their warranty is usually a 1 year world wide warranty, but if you get the extended you increase that to 3 years world wide. Plus, the extended also adds on-site support for the first year, and for the last 2 years it's a "send it in for free" type deal where they will send you a box to ship your unit to them and back to you at their expense.

Also, take a look at Asus. Last year they added a 1 year accidental warranty to their laptops, so if it gets dropped, burned, fried by a power surge, or it gets water all over it (even submerged) they replace it for free that first year.

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genieguru

@tipstaff-

thanks for heads up on extended warranty
and there are good ASUS laptops in the same price segment,so they'll be worth considering too
in the end the decisions lies with my dad
so ill give him a range of choices with the acer 6920 on top of the list

And as for the atom processor,its good to know about the performance cause i was planning to buy an Eee PC for myself
i think i will hold off for a while since i'm not that desperate for a netbook

thanks to everyone for their suggestions and insights
i'll post pics as and when it arrives

swimtech

Yeah genieguru - nearly any modern laptop draws right at the same wattage (power), as long the CPU, GPU, and screen size are the same (within 2-5 watts) - those three items make for the largest variances between laptop models. The rest of the components (drives, mainboards, webby-cams, wireless nics, etc.) are nearly identical to one another for power usage.

I'd like to mirror that the extended warranty on a laptop is statistically a good idea.

Of those two Acer's you saw - I like the 16" model better - better processor and graphics chip.

If your Dad ever plans on or wants to do videoconferencing, don't forget to consider a built in webcam!

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genieguru

@swimtech and tipstaff and old buzzard-

what is ur opinion about the Dell Studio laptops?
Especially the 17 inch one
they seem to offer great value for money

and i have another question about the screen
got a couple of options
17 inch CCFL backlit screen at 1920 x 1200 for about $150 extra or 17 inch screen which is LED backlit at 1440 x 900 for about $125 extra,which should be picked?(stock is 17 inch 1440 x 900 with CCFL back light)

is 1920 x 1200 on a 17 inch screen even worth it?
What about power consumption wise?LED should consume less right?

and since i bought my inspiron from them,i think i can work out a "return customer" discount too

so pls guys,gimme ur thoughts

EDIT:

And what is the performance and power consumption difference b/w a 2.5 inch 5400 rpm drive and a 7200 rpm drive?

The options are 250 gb 5400 rpm and 200 gb 7200 rpm

OldBuzzard

As a certified "Old Fart", I'd stay away from 1920x1200 on a 17" monitor. Shucks, I don't even run that on my FW900 24" unless I'm gaming. Old eyes and high resolutions when surfing don't mix well

But, that would also depend on your dad. His eyesight would be what decides that. It might be a good idea for you guys to check out some lappys at one of the local stores, and see which resolution works best for him.

I'm currently running 1280x800, which is a bit too big, and would prefer to run at 1440x900 but all I can get at 1440x900 is 60hz, which sucks on a CRT.

Sure would be nice if ATI would make 85hz available for 1440x900.

Dell? I haven't had any experience with any of their lappys. However, they do seem to have a good reputation. Totally the opposite from their PCs.

HDD? Power considerations aside, I'd go for the 250/5400. More storage is always a good thing.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY