WillC

Hey, I posted.. maybe a month ago about poor performance and such in games. I have been playing around with settings and I even tried overclocking (didn't change a whole lot but it was only 25% increase I think).
Current Parts:
Mobo: Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GA-EP43-UD3L LGA 775 Intel P43 ATX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards
CPU: Intel® Core?2 Duo Processor E6300 (2M Cache, 1.86 GHz, 1066 MHz FSB) with SPEC Code(s) SL9TA
GPU: Newegg.com - EVGA 512P3N802DX GeForce 8800 GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards
PSU: Newegg.ca - OCZ StealthXStream OCZ700SXS 700W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply - Power Supplies
Case: NZXT Apollo ATX Tower Case 5X5.25 1X3.5 4X3.5INT No PS Front Audio USB Firewire Black - DirectCanada
RAM(3Gb, similar to this): Newegg.ca - CORSAIR 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Desktop Memory Model VS1GB667D2 - Desktop Memory
HDD: Newegg.ca - Western Digital Caviar Blue WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
OS: Windows XP 32bit (hopefully soon to be windows 7 32bit)

Alright, so basically even after all the settings are low, I am still getting low 40fps in games like team fortress 2 and l4d2. I started by turning off filters and buffering, then went after effects and details. Now it is all off and fps barely changed.
I know my CPU is probably the worst part of this, and I was looking at quad cores, just because they are the same socket. I'd like to get all the new i7 and stuff but it isn't feasible right now.
So
-would quad core be a big jump that would make games a decent fps with decent settings?
-should I rather upgrade the graphics card instead of the CPU?

Also, what are some suggestions for quad cores (775) and possible graphics cards (around $200CAD)?
Thanks

BlueMak

1)You need to mention the resolution you play. 40fps at what resolution, it is very important.

2)The cpu is not that great, but should be ok for that graphics card, although not by much. There might be a slight bottlenecking, but nothing serious enough.

3)The gpu is good, but it is out of date now for new releases (see (1), the thing is if you upgrade the GPU, then you will not see much if any improvement if you don't also upgrade your CPU.

Unfortunately it is one of those situations where you need to upgrade both if you want increased performance.


Also, if you are going to upgrade to Windows 7, for the love of (insert deity), do NOT get the 32bit. GET the 64bit version!

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

WillC

The 32bit CD is apparently on the way, but I ordered it a while ago. I hear 64 is unreliable and there isn't a lot of software out for it?

I play at 1680 x 1050. I'd use a smaller resolution but all other resolutions look very bad/blocky or out of focus (using 1440x900 as a test). I can't seem to find a good one to fit my monitor, other than 1680x1050. It seems to be 1.6 AR. It also has a "4:3 in Wide" button on the bottom. Also, I use a DVI cord from the 8800 to the monitor (good idea or back to VGA?)

Mainly I was wondering if I could get a quad core (around 2.3) and get like 60fps (preferable at 1680 x 1050.. but if there is a way to "tighten" up the lower resolutions then I would use 1440x900).

I'm not sure on the model of the monitor (was a gift), but it seems to be this Newegg.ca - LG W2242TQ-BF Black 22" 2 ms (GTG) Widescreen LCD Monitor 300 cd/m2 8000:1 (DFC) - LCD Monitors

comp_ali

Go quad , it has a nice touch on games . If you have enough money for upgrading you can go for i7 all the way. If you are not willing to spend much you can upgrade to Q6600 which is dirty cheap (though rare since Intel stopped its production) and won't require to replace the Mobo , also you better move to +4GB ram , many games now are listing 2-3GB minimum for win7/vista so it is a vital upgrade if you want to play at .
I checked newegg and found those Quad CPUs are under 200$ (Q6600 not available)
Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Quad Q8300 2.5GHz 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops
Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Quad Q8200 2.33GHz 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops

For the GPU , as long as you are not in hurry to upgrade you can stick to your 8800 or just move to Ati 5770 (this one from Sapphire has nice cooling and amazing price too)
Newegg.com - SAPPHIRE 100283-2L Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Desktop Graphics / Video Cards

BlueMak

1)64 is at least the same as 32 in terms of reliability. Anyone who claims otherwise to you, knows shit, at least for Vista and 7.

2)1680x1050 with lower details will have to do if you are not satisfied with lower resolution. The "4:3 in Wide" probably (but not certain without the manual) means it does hardware scaling of images, at least as an option, so that you don't get stretched images from games that do not have widescreen resolutions.

3)While a quad core cpu might be helpful in general Windows tasks and gaming where it is heavy cpu game, it will not do much (it will do a few fps probably) to your overall performance due to the, now, old graphics card. It's still better to get a new quad core cpu than a graphics card, BUT, IMO it is a waste of money if you can't really afford it. I am sorry, but, at this point (of the PCs life), you have only one good option and that is to wait till you have enough money to get a new PC, and play at lower resolutions.

What MIGHT fix the blurriness:
1)Go to the Nvidia control panel (you have the latest drivers, right?) and find the option for display/gpu scaling or however it is written there. Make sure it is enabled for correct aspect ratio.
2)Go to the monitor's menu (the monitor's own OSD menu that it should have pressing the button MENU or something similar) and find anything like the above or "intelligent auto" or something like that about scaling and make sure it is disabled.
3)Start a game at a lower resolution and check the performance.

Let me know how it goes.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Kylzer

I suggest a GTX260 the 8800GT is underpowered for games theses days.

OldBuzzard

He could put a 5970 in that system and he still wouldn't get great FPS.

He has a 1.86Ghz dual core processor. It just doesn't have enough power to 'feed' a high(er) end video card. It most likely doesn't have enough power to get the best out of his current card.

The best upgrade he can do at this time is a faster CPU.

I ran into the same thing he's running into.

I had a system with an Athlon X2 4800+ with an X1950 Pro Video card. All in all it was a pretty well balanced system.

I replaced the X1950 Pro with a 3870 X2, and really didn't see much of a difference in FPS, I could however, run at higher AA/AF settings, and not lose FPS.

I replaced the 4800+ with a Phenom II 940, and got a huge increase in FPS. Now, I either have a good balance CPU/GPU wise, or possibly I have more CPU power than the GPU can use. I'll soon find out, as I'll be replacing the 3870 X2 with 2x 4870s in Crossfire as soon as I get my EXOS 2 repaired.

I have a sneaking suspicion that at that point, I'll be processor bound again.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

WillC

Alright, so first thing I looked at was in the nVidia control panel. The scaling is set to "Use my display's built-in scaling". I guess it is not really blurriness, but the text looks blocky at some words. Like "o"s look generally uniform, whereas "e" look compacted and thicker. It's not too bad, but I'm used to CRTs so it looks kind of bad to me. Also does using DVI as opposed to VGA have any difference?
There is nothing in the OSD, but I can no longer use the manual "Auto set" button on the monitor as it says "D V I No Access"

I tried l4d2 again, and I gained about 10fps. Which is playable now and it doesn't seem to be horrible when a lot is happening at once.

The problem is I'm in school away from home and I don't have any source of income so I'm not really making money. So until I do start again, I might just get one of those HD5K cards. Which is what I would have gotten at some point, even after a possible i7.

Also... well I guess prices will change, but what is a good idea on current CPUs (Looks like the current 'good' ones are about $300)? I noticed that i7s are around $300 while they currently only have 1 i5?

Optix

If you go with a new video card you won't get much of a performance boost because your current CPU will bottleneck any of the 5K Radeons.

I would look at picking up a better CPU like maybe an E8400 and an ATI 5770. That setup should scream in games for a little while yet and it will allow you to keep most of your current hardware (mobo, memory, PSU).

If you are really intent on upgrading you could do a budget i3 upgrade with an i3 540 (which has been shown to beat the E8400 in some cases), maybe the entry level MSI or Asus 1156 board along with a 5770.

In my opinion any of the current i5's or i7's are a waste of money for gaming, especially since you are only gaming at 1680x1050.

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WillC

As I have seen through numerous answers on here and with people, I can see I need both a CPU and GPU. The thing is, I don't really want to buy a slight CPU upgrade (dual core to dual core, 1.2GHz increase).
I do eventually plan to get either an i5(most likely) or an i7, and an MSI P55-GD65 board. Gaming is the one thing I know to be the most stressing thing I do on my PC.. I had originally thought that I didn't need a CPU upgrade at all, as games use GPU more than CPU. However I was wrong and it should to be upgraded.
I was really hoping to not do small upgrades, but rather larger ones to get more long term use out of it.

I know if I just got an HD 5k series that I wouldn't be getting full performance, but at the moment, for me it beats $500 for 1156socket mobo, 4Gb DDR3 ram and the i5.

OldBuzzard

Edited:

Didn't see that it was CDN Dollars you are talking about

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

BlueMak

What you do is up to you. If you want to buy a graphics card now and upgrade the rest later, it's up to you. Bare in mind that since you will not get much better performance now if you upgrade your graphics card, you will be throwing money down the drain since by the time you can upgrade the rest, you will be able to buy a faster and cheaper graphics card.
Also, if you want to upgrade CPU, you don't have to buy an icore cpu and new motherboard and memory.
If the motherboard accepts it (check the manufacturer's site), you could place a Q9xxx series CPU and be fine with it and 5xxx series graphics card (not sure about the 5970).

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

comp_ali

It support all 45 nm socket 775 cpus (Q9550 included) (duo/quad/extreme)
Edit : Forget about upgrading to 5770 unless you are going crossfire as there is no much performance gain over 8800gt , however It is recommended you start with the CPU upgrade first.

Kylzer

Sorry thought he had a E6300 - 2.8

my bad for not looking.

Judas

nope... no you won't..

as even with 2x 4870x2's in quady mode still showed ALOT of improvements....

the 940's are beefy cpu's.... easily Equivelent to the intel i7 920's...

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WillC

heh it's kind of funny that you mention this because I was talking with a friend across the border and it got to economics somehow, then I googled it and CAD = 0.94USD. The biggest factor for us (canadians) paying more is that newegg has better deals, however the shipping to Canada is $20 or so which makes it no longer a good deal for us.

I'm having trouble deciding whether or not I should upgrade the motherboard to 1156 and get that i5. Is it a good deal right now? Because the lower-end mobos socket 1156 are about $130, then that i5 is $220. I saw a few mobos on newegg, but I am not too sure which ones are good. I have been using gigabyte for quite a few years now and they seem to have good/inexpensive products.

Edit: I have been looking at some 2x PCI 16 boards so I can expand further in the future without getting fully new stuff, http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...82E16813131604

comp_ali

Me myself , I am also very satisfied with Gigabyte , I had about 4 GB mobos and they proved to be very solid even in extreme condition like temperature rising , only one had failed due to PSU failure , also they tend to be cheaper than other alternatives as well. Haven't had experience with Asus to be honest though but from the reviews I found they perform well on overclocking .
Doing a quick search at newegg ca , I found that Asus you mentioned is the cheapest one with 2 PCI-E 16x slots , but you'd better read some reviews about it first. For me I'd better stick with Gigabyte to be at the safe side.

Wait a minute , from the Asus specs It appears that it can't support 2x PCI 16x but 1@16x and 2 @ 4x WTF!
so it isn't really worth to get , look for one that can run both at 16x for maximum performance.

comp_ali

After checking , It looks like the best 1156 MB can run dual GPU's at 8x due to CPU pins limitation.

Edit : This Gigabyte (170$ US) looks solid but bear in mind it 8x when dual GPUs are running
http://techgage.com/article/gigabyte_p55a-ud4p/1

WillC

I don't really understand this x4 business. I was looking at a 1 pci x16 GB boards and it's at x4. Newegg.ca - GIGABYTE GA-P55-UD3L LGA 1156 Intel P55 ATX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards

Do GPU's use the "PCI Express 2.0 x16" slot first, then the "PCI Express x16" slot? So is this board crossfire ready, but the second card would run a lot slower?

comp_ali

Yes , if you run two cards at a time one of them will run at 4x only while the first one will be 16x as normal.
Other MB like I said run both at 8x which is a better choice.
You can read this useful post as well ,it lists MB according to (16x/4x) and (8x/8x)

Hardware Revolution: Warning: These P55 motherboards will cripple your Crossfire/SLI performance | Facebook

WillC

Alright, I don't think I'll use the crossfire/SLI stuff now then, I'll likely just get a mobo as long as it runs 1156, 1 pci express 2.0 x16, and is not micro. Any suggestions for that? I probably won't be able to get it for a while but it is good to know what to check out.

Optix

If you're on a budget you could look at the entry level MSI board. It's the current front runner for my dollars -if- the i3 540 gives enough bang for my buck.

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OldBuzzard

WillC, i see that you keep talking about an Intel based system. Is an AMD system out of the question for you?

Reason being, is that an AMD based system would be quite a bit cheaper, and if you are looking strictly at GAMING performance it would perform just as well as any Intel based system.

204.99 Newegg.ca - AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 6MB L3 Cache Socket AM3 140W Quad-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops

109.99 Newegg.ca - ASRock M3A785GXH/128M AM3 AMD 785G HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards

100.49 Newegg.ca - CORSAIR DOMINATOR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model CMD4GX3M2A1600C8 - Desktop Memory

415.47 Loonies

That system will handle any GPU solution on the market, and will probably not be bottlenecked by anything less than a pair of 5970's in Crossfire.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

WillC

Yeah, I usually use intel in my computers. I haven't really used AMD since a while ago.
Is it as reliable? I'm not too sure but it seems like intel has more CPUs on the market (using newegg as my reference).
Also, is this Phenom II 965 equal in power to that i5-750?

SeraphicSorcerer

Yes, it's "equal" in power, when you see Intel beating AMD usually it's some form of synthetic benchmark wher eIntel has a better SEE implementation (DUE to the fact they invented it) as for reliability, Since the days of the K7 and beyond neither processor has been more reliable then the other, You will have to get used to different bios, FSB and clocks, since most Intel runs 133x5 and most AMD systems run 200x2 (For CPU) and then run the Ram on the divider.

But as for reliability any retail processor is backed by a 3 year warranty. etc.

Gaming performance you'll be happy, bottom line, I only recommend Intel over AMD. If you....

A. Have money BURNING a hole in your pocket for it.
B. Use multimedia far more then anything else (Because their video encoding times are fantastic, which used to be AMD's strength)
C. Are a total fanboi and won't listen to logic and reason, and I don't feel like arguing with you.

Gaming is comparatively the same on each system.
What OB recommended will be a fine system. (Though I personally have no experience with Asrock)

And for 415, try matching that on Intel without getting "cheap" components.

for me my bitch is that while Intel's processors maybe as cheap as AMD's (Or comparable) The price for a quality motherboard has always been at least 50-100 more, for the same stuff you can get on a AMD board. and that's always aggravated me away. Like they're "special". Bull.

But that's my opinion. I built an Intel 940 system for a friend, and I do like their BGA (Ball grid array) sort of socket, but other then that it's pretty much the same kind of system, and his stuff rocks, but it doesn't rock so hard that I feel like I wanted to pay the 500$ more at the time then I paid for mine (I got my 955 system at the same time)

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WillC

Hmm, alright well I'll likely try the AMD setup this time.
I'll keep checking the site I buy from (would normally get from newegg but they love to charge canadians huge delivery charges) to see if there are any good mobos/CPUs on sale.
One question though, is my current PSU able to run this newer stuff plus an HD5k series GPUs?

PSU: Newegg.ca - OCZ StealthXStream OCZ700SXS 700W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply - Power Supplies

OldBuzzard

WillC,

That PSU should be just fine. It would even run 2 sincle GPU cards in crossfire with no problem.


SeraphicSorcerer,

ASRock has been making some danged fine boards lately. Especially their boards with the AMD chipsets. Very good quality, lots of good features, and still keeping their cost reasonable. I've built 4 systems now with ASRock boards, and they have all been flawless.

__________________
When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

comp_ali

Just check the warranty ASRock offers , Gigabyte normally gives 2-3 years on their motherboards.
Your PSU is more than enough , AMD's is the best bang for the buck but if you plan for high overclocking or something , I'd better stick with Intel since they have high thermal resistance and can overclock better.

Just a heads up in case you get 4GB or more ram , don't forget to get 64x OS.

BlueMak

I wouldn't trust ASRock. Very unreliable IMHO.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

WillC

Alright well it seems like 64bit windows 7 would have been a better idea than 32bit. I might be able to sell my 32bit and buy a 64bit if the student deal allows it.

I was looking around a bit on newegg and noticed a GB AMD mobo.
Newegg.ca - GIGABYTE GA-MA785GT-UD3H AM3 AMD 785G HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards
I know some of you say that ASRock isn't reliable, but spec-wise which would be better?
Also, would that GB board still support this memory that Buzzard mentioned?
Newegg.ca - ASRock M3A785GXH/128M AM3 AMD 785G HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard - AMD Motherboards