blibbax

Different benchmarks may stress the cards more or less.

Also, 5 degrees difference in temperature can represent quite a substantial difference in how hard the cards are working to cool themselves, because the fan speeds go up as temperature increases. With both cards locked on say 60% fan speed, you would see a larger temperature difference.

__________________

gaetan

This is why I said none of the reviews I've read so far give me enough information to be able to compare, as for every situation is different and many factors are included and not precised by many sites, I think that in the end it really comes to a "trust your guts" chosing, as every parameter differ unless stated black on white.

Sihastru

I read every single review ever written about anything that can go in a computer case, and everything that "plugs" into a PC (wired or wireless). I started in the "Pentium" era and I can tell you about things that came before that.

As it might be or not be obvious, I am partial to Intel/nVidia. Everyone has it's favorites. So take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Prepare for "holy off topic thread diversion awesomeness"... in 3... 2...

Recently I started shifting my focus towards the "mobile", smartphones and tablets as I now think there isn't much thrill left in PC hardware.

The PC's we have today are monsters compared to what I saw in the past and there are so much more accessible. And every 12 months or so they nearly double in raw performance. I think it's time for the developers to catch up, and write smarter code to take advantage of that power, I feel that a lot of it is wasted or underutilized.

In the mobile world, you have to be smarter now, as you have limited resources.

It's just like in the beginnings of the modern PC's, when programmers optimized every piece of code. On the PC today that is no longer required and programmers are a dime a dozen and I don't like where things are going.

So even if in real life I'm now one of those programmers, I made my first step, went out and bought a Galaxy S2, started coding things I dream about and not things I have to dream about...

The "holy off topic thread diversion awesomeness" ends.

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gaetan

Wow...impressed, really.
Well, personally, the limitation has bothered me for the portable side, I understand what you mean, but I've been stuck with a laptop for a long time, and even though it's protable, the only thing it has done for me is slowing me down. Now I know you're more talking phones and tablets, but I'm just saying


Now, I was reviewing various fan controllers, as I said I was gonna review everything, and although reviews are saying it's good, the Aerocool Strike X fan controller, does have some bad feedbacks from costumers (them complaining about the look over particality) , I was looking at the fancy LCD sreen ones from NZXT and a lot of costumers are complaining about the reliability.

The only thing bad I read about the Aerocool is that it's more look than practicality, although I'd rather have the reliability without the practicality, I would like a way to monitor my fans and temperature more precisely then just low and high settings for fan.

I'm still considering the aerocool, even though I don't believe there is an automatic mode, at least I know it won't fail me in a week, as most did from NZXT.

Any thoughts on good, reliable, practical and precise fan controllers?

I found out that for the sensors, the best place to monitor the temp for CPU and GPU are to put the sensors "under" them, on the other side of the PCB (I suppose that's out its called, right?)

Thanks

Sihastru

All fan controllers suck. The guys that make them do not seem to get it.

A fan controller should automatically vary the fan speed according to a "zone" or read point temperature. Some do, but only for 1 to 3 fans, and I should be able to define intermediary speed steps, and not use a predefined template. A fan controller should not be seen at all or at least should be blending into my case.

They try to implement awkward controls that are either incomplete (a simple manual knob) or overly complicated (touch controls with crazy animations) while serving the same simplistic purpose (virtual manual control knob).

The ones that have thermal probes, usually they are on long thin wires, that make your setup look like a spider infested box (I know, great modding idea). On top of it, it's complicated to actually attach them to anything and still get a good reading. There is no way to calibrate them.

Prepare for knowledge overload or Sihastru's fan controller (C) (R) (TM). I will call it "The overlord" (C) (R) (TM).

1. the fan controller is a small black box that can be mounted behind the motherboard tray;

2. the fan controller has at least 12 (preferably 16) PWM/VC combo connectors (means 4 pin that can take a 3 pin); any number of these can form any number of groups (that will be controlled as a group);

3. the fan controller has an USB connector, connects to one of your internal USB ports on your motherboard;

4. the fan controller comes with OS agnostic software;

5. the fan controller has firmware; you setup your profiles via the software, save them in the firmware, then the fan controller just works, you can re-install the software, the OS, your settings are stored on the controller and you'll never lose them; you will be able to download templates from a website for specific cases and specific setups of those cases;

6. the fan controller can use the thermal monitoring probes that are already in your system (the motherboard, the CPU, the videocard, the HDDs and so on, all have thermal sensors built in); you will use these sensors to setup speed curves for your fans (or fan groups);

And that concludes my awesome idea.

So until such a simple thing comes into existence you are far far far better of using your motherboard's fan headers and the already implemented control options. They are waaaaaaay better then any fancy bling-bling so called controller. Or you'll be better of with the very simple manual knob controllers, something like Scythe's Q12.

Unfortunately I do believe you're a guy that likes the "bling", so you'll buy a multicolored gazillion LED "X" shaped spike infested touch sensitive "because everything with an X in it is better" thing. And that's not a criticism, some like that sort of thing.

I'm more into slick simple lines, with everything hidden type of guy. Could be because I'm repressing something or it could be because lights make me dizzy.

I like the thing to just work, without me having to remember that before starting a game, I have to rotate knob 1 to "8", knob 2 to "6", knob 3 between "5" and "6" and all the other 7 or so knobs to their magical sweet spot. I always forget to do that. So these days I prefer to just invest in good quiet fans, control most of them via the motherboard, and the rest of them, I just use any included voltage reducers.

So, in conclusion, sorry, I don't know what fan controller to recommend.

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gaetan

Me? Really? How did you guess? :P

Well, as soon as "The Overlord" comes out, be sure to tell me, I'll your first assured buyer

Well, I liked the idea of being able to know what my case was "doing", knowing what temperature everything was at, knowing the speed at which the fans were running without having to use any software that would "interfere" with anything I would be doing, so the Aerocool seemed nice for this, but the lack of automatic mode really bothered me, and that is the downside, but since apparently I'm better off with the motherboard, then I'll do that.

Either way, who better to know when it needs to be cooled than the motherboard itself, so, I'll most probably do that.

So I have 3 others ODD slots, you know anything fancy I can stick in there?

Just kidding :P

Thanks a lot

Sihastru

As a software fan controller, Speedfan worked fine for me on my laptop and on some of my motherboards.

Things to stick in other slots:
- a good DBV-T/C TV tuner;
- a PCIe based SSD like an OCZ Revo3 2X;
- backup wifi N or 1GBe card (for when that useless Killer NIC dies a shameful death, just joking...);

But if you're still getting the G1 Sniper, do not populate the last green PCIe 16x slot with anything when you're using 2 x GTX580 SLI on the first two, the second one will drop to 8x. It shouldn't impact performance much at all, I just don't know if there will be some other issues.

So that only leaves the last slot, a simple PCI slot since both the PCIe 1x slots will be covered by the videocards. I guess you could find a decent hybrid tv tuner to fill that void. You will want one that does Analog + DVB-T + DVB-C. There are a lot that do Analog + DVB-T, but very few that will also do DVB-C, and that is cable digital high definition television without an additional decoder box (at least for the freeview/uncoded channels). Or if you're in the middle of nowhere, a satellite card would be nice. Don't ask me which one to get, digital television is a bit fuzzy (get it, fuzzy?) for me, best thing is to ask your provider about their requirements.

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gaetan

Are you talking about the one that costs about as much as the rig?

For the TV tuner, I'm not really interested, I don't like the italian channels, I prefer the american television, but I can't get it here :/

So, I suppose I'm more or less done now, for the keyboard, mouse and headphones I wanted to stick to the same design sort of, and wanted to go for thermaltake products, the ultimate gamer keyboard and black element mouse (fancy lights! ) and the Shock headphones, read good reviews about them, and I like their style, so.

Thanks again

Sihastru

They're not that expensive, you can get them between 400-1000+ euros depending on the capacity. There's even a smaller version of the enterprise grade OCZ VeloDrive C, that about 800 for the 320GB and 500 for the 160GB... There are versions of the VeloDrive that are insane, but you won't be needing those.

I mean, you are paying a cool 1000 euros for that 990X CPU, are you not?

The 480GB version of the RevoDrive is ~1000 and the 240GB version is about 500... Isn't the 240GB of the Max IOPS a little less but still about the same? and a PCIe SSD will absolutely murder any SATA version.

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gaetan

Well, I was actually wondering is a PCI SSD can replace a SATA SSD?

How about relibility, practicality, etc. how do they compare? what PCI ports does it take?

Sihastru

First a little presentation. The RevoDrive is basically two (RevoDrive) or four (RevoDrive X2) SSD's on a stick. If you look at the card you can see that the smaller capacity ones have two sandforce controllers each with their flash memory, and the higher capacity ones have two more of these sandforce controllers on an addon board, that is bolted to the first board. It connects to the motherboard via a PCIe 4x connector (8x and 16x compatible). So it should work in that last green slot I told you to not use ... (hmm...)

So the RevoDrive X2 (there is a RevoDrive X2, first gen, then there is the 2nd gen, that, for some obscure reason, is called "3", skipping "2", ask OCZ why?) is actually four smaller Sandforce 60GB drives setup as RAID0, giving you a total capacity of 240GB (unlike SLI, here capacity is additive ).

Reliability is going to be lower since it's a RAID0 of two and up to four controllers one board (or one board with 2 controllers and one module with the other two controllers for the 4 controllers version).

And a 2-4 controller RAID0 setup has a higher probability to fail then a single controller SSD (normal SATA ones).

That doesn't mean it WILL fail, you could get a Revo X2 and have it for 7+ years and you could get the MAX IOPS and have it fail day one. It's a question of luck.

I've been running RAID0 setups since I could count up to two, and luck has been on my side so far... Some say that RAID0 is playing with fire, I say probabilities mean nothing when you have lady luck on your side :P

Also ALWAYS backup your data.

The RevoDrive X2 is available in 100GB, 160GB, 220GB, 240GB, 360GB, 460GB, 480GB, 720GB and finally 960GB. Since you want the MAX IOPS 250GB, I pointed out the 240GB version of the Revo X2, that shouldn't be too much more expensive.

OCZ showed a RevoDrive 3 X2 version with 240GB some time ago, but right now they only offer the 480/960GB versions... While the first generation works fine, this 2nd generation, the "3 X2", is a lot better. I think the RevoDrive 3 X2 240GB might be worth to wait for.


EDIT: There is a RevoDrive 3 (non X2) with 240GB capacity, so that means two Sandforce controllers in RAID0, still double the performance of a SATA SSD, but not just as crazy fast as an X2 (quad controllers)... Tough choice.

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gaetan

First of, I can assure you, luck has rarely been on my side, and I've always been a little scared of RAID 0, don't know why.

Now you told me not to use the 3rd PCI, and even though it might sound like a waste of money, I think I'll still go for the SSD SATA version, I've always worked with HDDs so far, and I can't complain, it gets the job done, since the SDD is a lot faster, there will be improvement, but I don't think I absolutely need this much of an improvement to the point of going for PCI SSD, and even if I do in the future, everything will have evolved.

Don't ask me how, but I have a feeling I'll have an easier life with the SATA SSD, not saying the PCI is crap, I think it's awesome, just that as it's my first build, I wouldn't like neither to play with fire, nor to hope lady luck is with me when I'm not sure she is, know what I mean?

Sihastru

No, you don't actually need it, a standard SATA SSD will be crazy fast compared to a mechanical HDD. I was just presenting an alternative. Actually, in normal usage, I don't think you'd feel much of an improvement if you go with any of the Revo drives, but any SSD feels incredibly fast compared to an HDD.

So a normal SSD is a good choice.

You do realize, we will ask for a build log, with lots of pictures, right?

As is stands right now, this will be a dream machine.

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synthesis204

I believe PCI/PCIe SSDs are not supported by TRIM and (theoritically) should deteriorate over time, slowly. I may be mistaken, though

Also, stay away from the Intel SSDs. The 320 line (and possibly others) are having firmware/hardware issues with them. I'd stuck with basically any other mfg (I love my GSkill).

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Sihastru

Most manufacturers had problems with SSD's. Just recently, Corsair recalled all their Force 3 drives. Sandforce had plenty of firmware issues, also Indilinx.

The same can be said about HDD manufacturers, remember Seagate's firmware fiasco?

The RevoDrive 3 (X2 and non X2) supports TRIM because they have a new chipset that handles the "RAID0" part (which is not exactly RAID0, but it's similar).

Now Intel has problems. There are a lot 320 Series sold worldwide, and only a few units experienced the "8MB" problem. Some of the guys that had the problem reported that secure erasing the SSD fixed the problem, while others said that didn't help them.

NOTHING is bulletproof, that's why we have warranties.

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synthesis204

Yes, but Intel is having Intel-specific issues, whereas most other manufacturers are having sandforce-wide issues (aka affects all drives equally). And I had personal experience with the 8MB, so yeah.

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gaetan

Well, true that nothing is bulletproof as for intel-specific issues, some times product have issues and you can feel that the potential hasn't been totaly maxed, like they rushed to get the product done.

Well, if any of the hardware fails, I'll be sure to get a replacement if I'm during the warranty time, no matter how

gaetan

Okay, so I've done my homework, I've read reviews and I found a suitable graphics card, drum roll please: the MSI nGTX580 Lighting Extreme Edition 3GB. The reason for that is that is seems to present a rather slim profile compared to most others while still having a good cooling capacity.

Only one thing really bugged me, power consumption at load was, another drum roll: 400W...
Now from what I've learned reading reviews is that usually the max temperature and power consumption are at max load, which may not always be what is reached in real life situations.

Yet I'm still perplexed, so I wanted to know what kind of average power consumption I would get with this rig. I know I was given a link to calculate this, but bear with me, I don't understand everything.

So if you guys don't mind helping me, I know I've asked a lot in this thread, but I rather be annoying in asking questions rather than getting a surprise when I finally build a rig.

Here is the final decision for the rig:

Processor: Intel i7 990X
CPU Cooling: Corsair H100
Motherboard: Gigabyte G1.Sniper
RAM: Corsair Vengeance 12GB (3x4GB)
Graphics Card: 2x MSI nGTX580 Lighting Exreme Edition 3GB
SDD: OCZ Vertex 3 Max IOPS 240GB (wondering if 120GB wouldn't be better just to cut price)
HDDs: 1x 3TB WD; 1x 2TB WD (more might be added in future)
ODD: LG Multi Blue
Card Reader: Card Reader 35in1
PSU: Corsair AX1200

I didn't write the components that seemed irrelevent to the total power consumption. Although if they're needed, let me know.

Thanks a lot guys

synthesis204

Looking good mate (: can't lie, I'm jealous of your 580 SLI (especially that model. Looks ill and can probably OC past a 590).

And for SSD: 120GB will probably suit your needs fine. You could also get two 120GB's and run them in raid 0 (aka 240gb of room, but twice-ish as fast as a regular SSD), but that would be excessive

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gaetan

Thanks, but I'm actually more jealous of you guys, since this is what I would like, it's not like I can fund it atm.

Do you know how much power this will draw in real life instead of just the max from benchmarking I've seen from reviews?


Actually I just celebrated my 18th birthday, not that there was a party, and I was actually wishing to make myself a present if possible by getting this computer, although I have some ideas about funding, I doubt it will be sufficient.

Personally I don't see the point in going for a less costly rig if I'll need to update later, the total cost overtime will eventually be the same as if I had spent the money on the moment, so that's kind of a dilemma.

Although I heard about the G1.Sniper 2 for the LGA1155 socket, I wish it will come out soon so reviews can be done, so I would potentialy go for the 2600K, but I'll have to wait and see.

blibbax

To be fair, often a mid range rig can be 80% as good as a top-end rig for half the price or less.

__________________

gaetan

yes, but my actual point is a high end rig may not need to update as soon as a mid-range rig, so the total money you put on the mid range in the end can be equal, if not more than the high end, know what I mean?

although there is a probability of me being completely off with this lol

blibbax

I see what you're saying, but my point is that a mid-range rig may last very nearly as long (because it's using similar levels of technology and is nearly as fast) and cost much, much less. So you might replace it after 4 years rather than 5, but as it cost 50% less, in the long run it works out significantly cheaper.

Of course, if you think that a rig lasting twice as much would last more than twice as long, then I'm not sure that I can agree, but in that case the high-end rig is better value.

__________________

gaetan

Well, I forgot to update, but with the new sniper 2 coming out, I think I'm going to go for the 1155 socket, and it's compatible with the new Ivy-Bridge as well as PCIe 3.0, so I think the motherboard will "last longer" than the 1366. I'm reducing the SSD as well, 120GB and only taking 1 GTX580 to have less power draw, and the I think the Lighting Extreme edition from MSI will do fine on its own for now.

So basically I cut the price to around 2600€ which is a nice reduction from the initial point.

Although do you know of the GTX 580 support 2 monitors? I heard of the Nvidia ones not supporting multiple monitors, but I thought I'd ask

Thanks to all for your useful informations

Takaharu

The LGA 2011 is due soon, which means that the 1366 series is end-of-line as of this year. The 1155... it still has life left.

As for the GTX 580, yeah, it'll handle dual screens just fine but don't expect to be able to play 5760x1080 on them It'll serve you well imo.
Seriously, though, I believe the Nvidia surround technology (Eyefinity equivalent) only works with 3 monitors.

If you want my opinion, don't use MSI. I've had nothing but bad reports and bad experience with their products working with drivers.

__________________

gaetan

Well, I looked into the MSI, as I said previously, because of it's rather slim design even though it still packed a punch with being cooled efficiently. The slim design was, IMO, a plus for a possible SLI update in the future.

Now that I think of it, maybe the ASUS Mars will do for now, and instead of upgrading to a second GTX580, wait for the new graphic cards, since the mobo is compatible with 3.0 PCIe. What do you guys think?

synthesis204

MSI uses very high quality parts but has very poor customer service. Basically pray you get a card that works :P

And...ASUS Mars? The $1000 card with dual GTX 280, I'f Im not mistaken? Unless you happen to have one laying around, don't waste your cash. It was big, hot, and not very fun to look at :P

I would honestly (if I had to redo my build) go with an i7-2600K on an ASUS Black Edition 1155 motherboard with a 560Ti SLI (or a single GTX 590 (if my budget allowed) or a single nicer GTX 580, such as the Lightning ).

The new graphics cards aren't due for at least 3 quarters (if Im not mistaken), so you'd have a bit of waiting to do...

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gaetan

Well, I'll ask my retailer how the warranties work etc.

As for the waiting, it's almost one year that I'm looking into changing PC, so I believe I have patience for that kind of things lol

Sihastru

Challenge accepted!

The problem in most European countries is that we are at the mercy of the retailers, if you have a warranty claim, you will not be in contact with the manufacturer, you are in contact only with the retailer and he does whatever he pleases. Things are slowly progressing but we are so far far away from how nice it is in the US.

So it really doesn't matter what the sticker on the hardware says it's "manufactured" by. All we can do is get one that we "feel" is of higher quality and hope for the best.

So what do you say gaetan, wanna wait with me for the next gen DX11.1 cards? Who knows maybe that extra .1 will be worth the wait.

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gaetan

I'm at the mercy of no one, if I need to change my hardware and it's included in the warranty, retailer or not, I'll make hell on hearth for him if I don't get what I'm supposed to get.

My motto: "You may touch my hardware, but do it at your own risk."

We'll see about waiting for DX11.1, I'm still waiting for the computer in general, so don't know lol