ATI 9700 Pro or Ti4600

RIV@NVX · Oct 16, 2002, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reno
Man RIVA, you are dumb.

The Geforce4 Ti4200 beats the Radeon 8500 in most all benchmarks, hell, my Geforce3 Ti500 (which is much slower than a Ti4200) beats an 8500 in all tests except Serious Sam 2 and Game 2 in 3dmark.

Anyway, has anyone seen the CgShader effects in motion? I have, emulating the NV30 on my processor of course, but man...perfect fire. Honest to God, PERFECT fire in full motion! volumetric shadows, everything! Something that ATI currently can not do and most likely won't do until the R350 comes out.

I agree, 200 fps is not needed, and anyone who owns anything from a Geforce3 up should weigh their options...350 bucks for a new vid card...or 350 bucks for 5 quality lap dances?

Oh, and RIVA, you are my new favorite person to pick on. A croat that prefers "second company" stuffs because they are always better, yet doesn't use Linux because it can't run most games...But Linux is still better than Windows! And I only use creative because I'm forced to! Even though I could easily find on-board audio! D'oh! But C-media and the AC97 codecs (which come from "second companies" no doubt) aren't as good as Creative! I'd re-evaluate your stand on this "second company" issue Riva, I really would, it's limiting you to CRAP.

And you are my favourite person to discuss with.

On-board shit is on-board, and off-board (even CL PCI128) is better.

We are talking about 9700 and 4600.
I know that 8500 was to compare with GeForce 3 original version, not 4 or whatever.

Second company IS BETTER BECAUSE they want to be better. If they don't they can't be.
(example - AMD before Athlons).

So, if you don't believe in my theory, I ask you one thing - how did NVIDIA won over 3dfx?

Zardon · Oct 16, 2002, 09:43 AM

may I remind members to attempt to post in a civil tone, this is not the flaming section and personal insults are really not needed when debating or discussing with a degree of intelligence.

I have had several complaints about some people on the board, and I would appreciate if the tone of this thread could be raised back to the subject matter.

Please consider this a friendly warning.

RIV@NVX · Oct 16, 2002, 09:56 AM

No problem, Zardon.

reno, I think we should walk everyone on other side. You buy NV and Intel, I will buy VIA-AMD-ATI. Everyone is happy.

reno · Oct 16, 2002, 03:58 PM

nVidia won a lot of OEM and server markets, while 3dfx was king in the gamer market. nVidia typically was a "bigger" company that sold better than 3dfx, wheras 3dfx was the "second" company in volume and value of sales. so 3dfx was the "second" company by your definition, which in turn, lost out to the "first" company in the long run.

nVidia was around (they made weird shit for sega) before 3dfx was, it's just they were not in the same market.

Ryoko · Oct 16, 2002, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
However, I find my self asking - who runs without AF and AA these days

me!

to be honest, i just can't bring myself to. yeah, it looks better, but i'm an fps nut. in fps games, you just CAN'T go below 60fps or you're screwed. put it this way - in ut when i'm against a bot with all skill settings maxed, i can live forever if i run default graphics. if i turn up all the i.q., i still am at 30fps+, but it's not consistent, and i end up being about even with the bot.

Ryoko · Oct 16, 2002, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mac Daddy
Yes we will
Keep in mind, were mixing apples and oranges, 9700 was a reply to 4600,
4600 was a reply to 7500, which I didn't like

4600 was a reply to 8500, which was a reply to gf3, which was a reply for radeon which was a reply for gf2.....

don't give me apples and oranges crap. every card is different. it will excel in certain areas and fail in others. you just can't compare video cards.

UberLord · Oct 16, 2002, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryoko
me!

to be honest, i just can't bring myself to. yeah, it looks better, but i'm an fps nut. in fps games, you just CAN'T go below 60fps or you're screwed. put it this way - in ut when i'm against a bot with all skill settings maxed, i can live forever if i run default graphics. if i turn up all the i.q., i still am at 30fps+, but it's not consistent, and i end up being about even with the bot.

N00b13

Seriously, I know what you're saying. With previous cards any dips below 60fps and it's just horrible to play. But with the Parhelia, the lowest fps is much much higher than my old 8500 even with FAAx16. Also when it does drop to the 40's (which it does from time to time) it feels much smoother and playable than the 8500 at the same fps ...... strange but true.

reno · Oct 16, 2002, 11:56 PM

I agree with UberLord...but add that smooth 30fps and 40fps are available on cards even as lowly as mine...which I always run with 2xAA and 2xAnisotropic filter...except in Lithtech engine games (AVP2, NOLF) just because those engines are turtles compared to Unreal or Quake

.

Zardon · Oct 16, 2002, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reno
except in Lithtech engine games (AVP2, NOLF) just because those engines are turtles compared to Unreal or Quake .

yes but isnt the lithtech engine just gorgeous .......the "jupiter" version of the lithtech engine (NOLF2) can handle 50,000 weather particles compared to the original limit of 1000, its also nice the way the cube environment mapped water will generate realistic ripples and waves if someone or something hits the surface. I love the engine myself. it has alot of potential --- they are working on the next version of the engine "Triton" which is powering the programmable shader glow effects in the Tron 2 future release, which looks just amazing graphically.

reno · Oct 17, 2002, 01:30 AM

The Jupiter revision is WAY better than 2.0...but...the best water of any game, that moved perfectly, and reacted even to sprites....the original Alien vs. Predator on a proprietary engine. Man....no game yet has been able to do it...it's seriously like real water...drops from rain make the right little splashes...running through it in zigzags makes ripples that bounce off and diffuse into each other......so awesome....

Here is to nVidia using CG to not only create fire, but water! BTW, nVidia Cg, the best thing since hardware T&L. Bar-none

Rayder · Oct 17, 2002, 07:37 AM

No contest. The 9700 pro gets my vote. Me not like dem bad ol Nvidia cards.

gibbon565 · Oct 20, 2002, 12:40 PM

To be completely honest with you I was generally impressed with the ATI Radeon 8500 but I did get problems with it's smoothvision features etc (ex. My weapons in CS looked like Giant! dildos, freaky...lol) So as Mr Carmack said nvidia drivers are gold standard, I have met John Romero and he completely agrees ..hehe

I think ATI are improving and at one time I would warrant spending a lot of money on a gfx card, as I like to run my games with everything on. Though I say wait till XMAS as the NV30 will be around and the Radeon prices will plumit and you can make a choice. Anyway's I can never understand why ppl bitch and rant about which card is better. As Zardon said go in the Flame section and bitch about it there, as you cant judge which is better until we see them performing in real time

Anyway for some weird reason, for which I cannot answer the Parhelia is drawing me closer ...lol Though I think I'll keep my geforce 4 and wait till XMAS and make the right choice. I'll probably get a geforce 5 though I'm not sure, main reason for my choice is that I can honestly say that I have never, I say NEVER! had a problem with a nvidia card or it's drivers

Anyways go do something more productive ...lol

RIV@NVX · Oct 20, 2002, 03:53 PM

ATi has really done a good job with last few releases of drivers (6166, 6178, and especially 6193), so they finally started to understand their job as they should (example - Creative still doesn't).

Frodo301 · Oct 22, 2002, 12:55 AM

I've enjoyed having both the 8500 & Ti4600 in my 'puter. Both cards have their benefits and weaknesses. I never really had all the driver problems other people seemed to have with ati drivers when I purchased my 8500 in October of last year. Only thing that aggravated me was smoothvision problems, which sort of worked themselves out by the time I got rid of the card a few months ago. The Ti4600 is a brute strength card. No real driver problems with this card either and it runs anything that I've thrown at it with ease. I wish dvd playback was on tap with Ati, but we all know that Ati has far better dvd with the rage theater chip onboard. I'll will more then likely let go of the 4600 soon and move onto greener pastures with the 9700pro. Pretty sure the prices will fall and I'll snatch one up when that happens. Also realize that I have no bias over what I place in my computer. Ati, Nvidia, amd, intel, whatever. Theres just too many fanboys in www land who are unwilling to listen to other peoples comments or compromise that there might just be something out there that works fine for that person in their individual circumstance. That's what I like about Driverheaven, usually people listen and offer comments, not fanboy nonsense.

reno · Oct 22, 2002, 01:58 AM

I'm telling you guys, goto nvidia and download their CG toolkit, then go to...cgshaders.com...I think, and download their NV30 CG scripts...it runs slow as hell cause I have to emulate it on my processor, but man...you know how rain looks running down glass on a foggy day? Or how gunshots to sheetmetal look like? Or how realistic shadows and realistic fire looks? Four letters, two numbers... NV30 CG.

gibbon565 · Oct 22, 2002, 01:59 AM

Yeah I completely agree every card stands on it's on merits

Mac Daddy · Nov 9, 2002, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reno
I'm telling you guys, goto nvidia and download their CG toolkit, then go to...cgshaders.com...I think, and download their NV30 CG scripts...it runs slow as hell cause I have to emulate it on my processor, but man...you know how rain looks running down glass on a foggy day? Or how gunshots to sheetmetal look like? Or how realistic shadows and realistic fire looks? Four letters, two numbers... NV30 CG.

Right on, thats how I see things, ATI

I'm back, just finished our recording studio, a lot of work

NV30, I'm waiting for
" In my humble opinion "

FuNsTeR · Nov 9, 2002, 12:22 PM

i've had 3 ati cards in the past all were steady cards not impressive gaming though , i loved my old Voodoo 3000 card

that opened my eyes then i got the tnt2 ultra that card was sweet with alien V Predator , i then went for the cheaper option G2 mx400 64mb was a big improvement on my Tnt2 Ultra now i run a inno3d G4 ti 4600 man this card is fantastic , Medal of honour Allied Assualt is trully fantastic with it

and my opinion is screw ATI Nvdia is da biz

RIV@NVX · Nov 9, 2002, 03:19 PM

The fact is that if everyone had same opinion, it wouldn't be interesting, would it?

reno · Nov 10, 2002, 03:47 PM

well, if they all shared my opinion it could get interesting... muahhaaha!

tparker · Nov 14, 2002, 04:55 PM

With the NV30 so close to being released and knowing that Doom III is going to put a hurting on any card out right now .I read a Gaming Magazine that said and i quote the Radeon could only do 800X600 so that means that the Nvidia Geforce Four is going to be a dog in this game.I believe Nvidia made a good choice of going with the 0.13 micron gpu which will allow higher clock speeds The Geforce four can hold its own playing any game right now so there was no urgency needed to get a better card to market just yet they have till June before Doom will be shipped that gives us Consumers time to save money and wait till they release the NV30 let the 1% that buy them when they are first released then sit back and wait for a 800 or 900 memory one that will be able to clock to the magic 1,000 memory mark that the first release will be at for less money .I waited for the TI-4200 with 128 megs it cost less than half of what a Geforce Four TI-4600 cost and i have mine clocked to what the first release Geforce Four was clocked at .The only real mystery now is what are they going to call the Videocard all indications are that it will not be a Geforce five this is a whole new Videocard and I believe it deserves a new Name for a new generation of Performance .I have seen the Radeon 9700 and it is a great card I hope ATI has a lower micron Gpu in the works Competition really helps us consumers a great deal .I will never pay 400 dollars for a Videocard unless it has the capability to be upgraded by installing a brand new GPU and memory if they can make a socket that instead of buying new cards you just upgrade GPU and Memory that would be worth the price of admission but i am a realist it won't happen anytime soon or never.

Quakindude · Nov 14, 2002, 07:17 PM

I have a GF4 MX 460 64meg card. I have used Matrox and ATI in the past and IMHO, I have deemed the Nvidia cards as the best for now. ATI has always had driver problems form my experience. Also, Nvidia's drivers, almost every time, give me more FPS and better 3DMark scores. ATI can't make that claim. As far as AA, I use that and the ATI is leading the pack to a small degree for that one, but to say that the bios and drivers Nvidia is putting out is maxed out is in error. I still use a GF2 Ultra card on my kids computer and the lastest Det drivers pushed Quake lll FPS upwards by 6. I am now up to 60 FPS on a K6-2 550 system with that card in AGP X2 @ 800x600. Of course, my Shuttle 591P mobo has something to do with that FPS.

Oct 16, 2002, 09:56 AM	#33
RIV@NVX Freedom is a feature. Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Croatia, Rijeka Posts: 4,476 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	No problem, Zardon. reno, I think we should walk everyone on other side. You buy NV and Intel, I will buy VIA-AMD-ATI. Everyone is happy. __________________ -- Vedran

Oct 16, 2002, 11:56 PM	#38
reno Painlord of Ichor Join Date: May 2002 Location: bloinkin! Posts: 1,610 Rep Power: 0	sadfas I agree with UberLord...but add that smooth 30fps and 40fps are available on cards even as lowly as mine...which I always run with 2xAA and 2xAnisotropic filter...except in Lithtech engine games (AVP2, NOLF) just because those engines are turtles compared to Unreal or Quake .

Oct 17, 2002, 01:30 AM	#40
reno Painlord of Ichor Join Date: May 2002 Location: bloinkin! Posts: 1,610 Rep Power: 0	zdfd The Jupiter revision is WAY better than 2.0...but...the best water of any game, that moved perfectly, and reacted even to sprites....the original Alien vs. Predator on a proprietary engine. Man....no game yet has been able to do it...it's seriously like real water...drops from rain make the right little splashes...running through it in zigzags makes ripples that bounce off and diffuse into each other......so awesome.... Here is to nVidia using CG to not only create fire, but water! BTW, nVidia Cg, the best thing since hardware T&L. Bar-none

Oct 20, 2002, 12:40 PM	#42
gibbon565 Bouncy BOUNCY! Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 316 Rep Power: 0	To be completely honest with you I was generally impressed with the ATI Radeon 8500 but I did get problems with it's smoothvision features etc (ex. My weapons in CS looked like Giant! dildos, freaky...lol) So as Mr Carmack said nvidia drivers are gold standard, I have met John Romero and he completely agrees ..hehe I think ATI are improving and at one time I would warrant spending a lot of money on a gfx card, as I like to run my games with everything on. Though I say wait till XMAS as the NV30 will be around and the Radeon prices will plumit and you can make a choice. Anyway's I can never understand why ppl bitch and rant about which card is better. As Zardon said go in the Flame section and bitch about it there, as you cant judge which is better until we see them performing in real time Anyway for some weird reason, for which I cannot answer the Parhelia is drawing me closer ...lol Though I think I'll keep my geforce 4 and wait till XMAS and make the right choice. I'll probably get a geforce 5 though I'm not sure, main reason for my choice is that I can honestly say that I have never, I say NEVER! had a problem with a nvidia card or it's drivers Anyways go do something more productive ...lol __________________ 3500 x64 ASRock Dual Sata 2 7900 GTO 512 1 gig OCUK HANNS-H HW13D

Oct 20, 2002, 03:53 PM	#43
RIV@NVX Freedom is a feature. Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Croatia, Rijeka Posts: 4,476 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	ATi has really done a good job with last few releases of drivers (6166, 6178, and especially 6193), so they finally started to understand their job as they should (example - Creative still doesn't). __________________ -- Vedran

Oct 16, 2002, 09:43 AM	Thread Starter #32
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	may I remind members to attempt to post in a civil tone, this is not the flaming section and personal insults are really not needed when debating or discussing with a degree of intelligence. I have had several complaints about some people on the board, and I would appreciate if the tone of this thread could be raised back to the subject matter. Please consider this a friendly warning.

Oct 16, 2002, 03:58 PM	#34
reno Painlord of Ichor Join Date: May 2002 Location: bloinkin! Posts: 1,610 Rep Power: 0	nVidia won a lot of OEM and server markets, while 3dfx was king in the gamer market. nVidia typically was a "bigger" company that sold better than 3dfx, wheras 3dfx was the "second" company in volume and value of sales. so 3dfx was the "second" company by your definition, which in turn, lost out to the "first" company in the long run. nVidia was around (they made weird shit for sega) before 3dfx was, it's just they were not in the same market.

Oct 17, 2002, 07:37 AM	#41
Rayder Mostly lurking lately.... Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 2,161 Rep Power: 73	No contest. The 9700 pro gets my vote. Me not like dem bad ol Nvidia cards.

Oct 22, 2002, 12:55 AM	#44
Frodo301 Outraged Join Date: May 2002 Location: The mountains Posts: 584 Rep Power: 0	My two cents on two cards I've enjoyed having both the 8500 & Ti4600 in my 'puter. Both cards have their benefits and weaknesses. I never really had all the driver problems other people seemed to have with ati drivers when I purchased my 8500 in October of last year. Only thing that aggravated me was smoothvision problems, which sort of worked themselves out by the time I got rid of the card a few months ago. The Ti4600 is a brute strength card. No real driver problems with this card either and it runs anything that I've thrown at it with ease. I wish dvd playback was on tap with Ati, but we all know that Ati has far better dvd with the rage theater chip onboard. I'll will more then likely let go of the 4600 soon and move onto greener pastures with the 9700pro. Pretty sure the prices will fall and I'll snatch one up when that happens. Also realize that I have no bias over what I place in my computer. Ati, Nvidia, amd, intel, whatever. Theres just too many fanboys in www land who are unwilling to listen to other peoples comments or compromise that there might just be something out there that works fine for that person in their individual circumstance. That's what I like about Driverheaven, usually people listen and offer comments, not fanboy nonsense. __________________ The greatest thing you'll every learn is to love, and be loved in return.

Oct 22, 2002, 01:58 AM	#45
reno Painlord of Ichor Join Date: May 2002 Location: bloinkin! Posts: 1,610 Rep Power: 0	sdfgsdf I'm telling you guys, goto nvidia and download their CG toolkit, then go to...cgshaders.com...I think, and download their NV30 CG scripts...it runs slow as hell cause I have to emulate it on my processor, but man...you know how rain looks running down glass on a foggy day? Or how gunshots to sheetmetal look like? Or how realistic shadows and realistic fire looks? Four letters, two numbers... NV30 CG.

Oct 22, 2002, 01:59 AM	#46
gibbon565 Bouncy BOUNCY! Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 316 Rep Power: 0	Yeah I completely agree every card stands on it's on merits __________________ 3500 x64 ASRock Dual Sata 2 7900 GTO 512 1 gig OCUK HANNS-H HW13D

Nov 9, 2002, 12:22 PM	#48
FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Darkest Ayrshire Posts: 1,305 Rep Power: 88 System Specs	i've had 3 ati cards in the past all were steady cards not impressive gaming though , i loved my old Voodoo 3000 card that opened my eyes then i got the tnt2 ultra that card was sweet with alien V Predator , i then went for the cheaper option G2 mx400 64mb was a big improvement on my Tnt2 Ultra now i run a inno3d G4 ti 4600 man this card is fantastic , Medal of honour Allied Assualt is trully fantastic with it and my opinion is screw ATI Nvdia is da biz __________________ "They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Nov 9, 2002, 03:19 PM	#49
RIV@NVX Freedom is a feature. Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Croatia, Rijeka Posts: 4,476 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	The fact is that if everyone had same opinion, it wouldn't be interesting, would it? __________________ -- Vedran

Nov 10, 2002, 03:47 PM	#50
reno Painlord of Ichor Join Date: May 2002 Location: bloinkin! Posts: 1,610 Rep Power: 0	reht well, if they all shared my opinion it could get interesting... muahhaaha!

Nov 14, 2002, 04:55 PM	#51
tparker DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Winston Salem N.C. Posts: 42 Rep Power: 0	9700 or 4600 With the NV30 so close to being released and knowing that Doom III is going to put a hurting on any card out right now .I read a Gaming Magazine that said and i quote the Radeon could only do 800X600 so that means that the Nvidia Geforce Four is going to be a dog in this game.I believe Nvidia made a good choice of going with the 0.13 micron gpu which will allow higher clock speeds The Geforce four can hold its own playing any game right now so there was no urgency needed to get a better card to market just yet they have till June before Doom will be shipped that gives us Consumers time to save money and wait till they release the NV30 let the 1% that buy them when they are first released then sit back and wait for a 800 or 900 memory one that will be able to clock to the magic 1,000 memory mark that the first release will be at for less money .I waited for the TI-4200 with 128 megs it cost less than half of what a Geforce Four TI-4600 cost and i have mine clocked to what the first release Geforce Four was clocked at .The only real mystery now is what are they going to call the Videocard all indications are that it will not be a Geforce five this is a whole new Videocard and I believe it deserves a new Name for a new generation of Performance .I have seen the Radeon 9700 and it is a great card I hope ATI has a lower micron Gpu in the works Competition really helps us consumers a great deal .I will never pay 400 dollars for a Videocard unless it has the capability to be upgraded by installing a brand new GPU and memory if they can make a socket that instead of buying new cards you just upgrade GPU and Memory that would be worth the price of admission but i am a realist it won't happen anytime soon or never.

Nov 14, 2002, 07:17 PM	#52
Quakindude DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 37 Rep Power: 0	I have a GF4 MX 460 64meg card. I have used Matrox and ATI in the past and IMHO, I have deemed the Nvidia cards as the best for now. ATI has always had driver problems form my experience. Also, Nvidia's drivers, almost every time, give me more FPS and better 3DMark scores. ATI can't make that claim. As far as AA, I use that and the ATI is leading the pack to a small degree for that one, but to say that the bios and drivers Nvidia is putting out is maxed out is in error. I still use a GF2 Ultra card on my kids computer and the lastest Det drivers pushed Quake lll FPS upwards by 6. I am now up to 60 FPS on a K6-2 550 system with that card in AGP X2 @ 800x600. Of course, my Shuttle 591P mobo has something to do with that FPS.