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Old Dec 11, 2005, 07:33 PM   #1
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audigy 2 analogue outputs

i've been looking for a solution to the audigy2's shoddy bass output for a while now, and as there are several other threads about all over the place i'd like to know if anyone's solved it.

for those of you unfamiliar with this issue, when using the analogue jacks, there's almost no output on the .1 channel. i'm using winxp sp1/via4in1 v4.51/latest non-beta creative drivers v5.12.31.1100 with the analogue&digital outputs going to a sony str-de597 receiver (analogue C/CR/SUB connected via 4-pole mini->rca cable). all the connections are properly attached (speaker connections verified by the receiver's built-in tester, and cabling connections tested via creative's speaker settings tester). the creative EAX control panel has never been installed, avoiding issues that come from it. the discrete input on the receiver itself works fine, if i plug the center channel into it for instance, the bass is there. in both the speaker calibrator setup and the speaker test application, when the sound gets around to the sub there is a very, very weak noise with the volume in the drivers at MAX, but with a real source like a game or video, there's no discernable output. the weirdest part is with the sub hooked to the card directly, you can get really bad sound out of it by turning on bass redirect in the drivers. however, when connected to the receiver's discrete input, nothing comes out even then. not that that's really a problem since redirecting the bass makes getting actual .1 sound rather pointless, right? but it shows the thing works to a degree, anyway. so howabout, has anyone actually gotten their AU2 to function properly?
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 01:09 PM   #2
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the same problem here, and no solution except for EAX console and THX console. both shit, but there is an option to pump up the bass a bit... i've got 120Hz and max volume... i can hear sth from .1 when polaying in foobar or winamp...
nevertheless i've got a separate bass-volume-level-control dial and it's set slightly above the level to which front and rear speakers are set...
the only resonable solution that cames to my mind is to make all chanels except .1 quieter (more quiet? :| :|) than the .1
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 06:39 PM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #3
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is there even a way to do that in the drivers? afaik there's only the sub that has it's own volume control. that setting doesn't affect the registry, so that rules out getting anywhere by editing the values there.
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Old Dec 13, 2005, 02:57 PM   #4
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I do not quite follow what do u mean

The part with the registry - what registry has to do with the sub? The sub is mixed (as a whole channel) with the front speaker so if there were any settings they would affect both front+sub...

What i meant was this:




This is Audigy 4 hacked ISO without any other stuff with YuoP drivers... As described somewhere here in the forum.
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Old Dec 13, 2005, 06:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarelc
i've been looking for a solution to the audigy2's shoddy bass output for a while now, and as there are several other threads about all over the place i'd like to know if anyone's solved it.

for those of you unfamiliar with this issue, when using the analogue jacks, there's almost no output on the .1 channel. i'm using winxp sp1/via4in1 v4.51/latest non-beta creative drivers v5.12.31.1100 with the analogue&digital outputs going to a sony str-de597 receiver (analogue C/CR/SUB connected via 4-pole mini->rca cable). all the connections are properly attached (speaker connections verified by the receiver's built-in tester, and cabling connections tested via creative's speaker settings tester). the creative EAX control panel has never been installed, avoiding issues that come from it. the discrete input on the receiver itself works fine, if i plug the center channel into it for instance, the bass is there. in both the speaker calibrator setup and the speaker test application, when the sound gets around to the sub there is a very, very weak noise with the volume in the drivers at MAX, but with a real source like a game or video, there's no discernable output. the weirdest part is with the sub hooked to the card directly, you can get really bad sound out of it by turning on bass redirect in the drivers. however, when connected to the receiver's discrete input, nothing comes out even then. not that that's really a problem since redirecting the bass makes getting actual .1 sound rather pointless, right? but it shows the thing works to a degree, anyway. so howabout, has anyone actually gotten their AU2 to function properly?

Hi!

SB0280 = Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Platinum eX

Manual can be downloaded @ http://uk.europe.creative.com/suppor...p?type=manuals

Are your connections and plugs as right type?





You can also try if ASIO compatible playersoftware makes any improvement.

(
Try for example:

Native Instruments BeatPort Player (freeware) - http://www.nativeinstruments.de/inde...id=beatport_us

Native Instruments Traktor DJ Studio 3 (demo) - http://www.nativeinstruments.de/inde...id=traktor3_us

MixVibes 6 (demo) - www.mixvibes.com

etc.


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Old Dec 13, 2005, 06:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiiteepee
SB0280 = Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Platinum eX
How do u know? is there a database with model no.?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiiteepee
Are your connections and plugs as right type?

i assume they are ->
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarelc
all the connections are properly attached (speaker connections verified by the receiver's built-in tester, and cabling connections tested via creative's speaker settings tester)
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Old Dec 13, 2005, 07:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyJohn
How do u know? is there a database with model no.?
Yes there is - http://ask.americas.creative.com/wwe...List_Audio.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyJohn
i assume they are ->
You wrote in your 1st post - line_out 1 is not very hearable --> I got an impression - this is affecting to the shoddiness of bass --> Line_Out 3 is for subwofer (see the picture on my previous post) --> are you on 6.1 you need a special plug for line3_out (eg. for subwoofer).

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Old Dec 13, 2005, 08:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiiteepee
Yes there is - http://ask.americas.creative.com/wwe...List_Audio.htm



You wrote in your 1st post - line_out 1 is not very hearable --> I got an impression - this is affecting to the shoddiness of bass --> Line_Out 3 is for subwofer (see the picture on my previous post) --> are you on 6.1 you need a special plug for line3_out (eg. for subwoofer).

thx


i guess we don't undestand each other or i don;t understand u

i wrote ".1" which means (as in 5.1 / 4.1 / 2.1) the subwoofer channel.

and i've got 5.1
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Old Dec 13, 2005, 08:15 PM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #9
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jiiteepee: My mistake, rather than actually identifying the card in my system I was lazy and grabbed what seemed to be the right value from the page of kX supported cards... But it is the OEM model.
Quote:
[*]The Audigy 2 series, including Gamer, Platinum, Platinum eX and OEM cards (SB0242, SB0244, SB0320, SB0240, SB0240P, SB0280).
ASIO wouldn't really help - even if it output to the sub, games using DirectSound3D wouldn't be affected by it, and games are all I have the problem with since I use the digital output for everything else, and my receiver does the bass handling.

CrazyJohn: I'm running the AU2 drivers, so I don't have the THX mixer. The bass redirect function would resolve me problem if there was toggle to mirror the low frequencies to the sub output instead of removing them completely from the mains - which then sound like garbage. But I doubt that'll happen unless Creative grows a new support branch. Now about the registry - I had a workaround in mind, seeing as the sub works (albeit badly) in the noise test. I was hoping that the volume level was stored in the registry, and could therefore be altered by hand, maybe above the maximum level on the slider But it's not a registry entry, so so much for that idea.

I've been looking around over at the Creative forums, and this issue (which affects anyone who's not using Creative's own speakers) is still unresolved. But the last few posts that seemed informed seem to imply the following: The output is not a proper subwoofer output - it is only active when decoding multi-channel media (ac3/dts/dd/etc) containing LFE info, or when the bass redirect function is enabled.
WTF! So if that's to be believed, games would not actually output anything to that channel at all, whether this is DS3D's fault or Creative's I haven't verified yet. This would also mean that Creative's speakers work properly because they have internal bass management, which would be one hell of a nasty marketing tactic.

I've come up with a solution for anyone with a receiver, it's not free though. Since all the bass redirect function is doing is cropping the low sounds and rereouting them, you can do the same thing but better by using an external mixer inline. From my post over at Creative's site...

Quote:
If you have some wire, some RCA connectors, and some 10k 1/4Watt resistors (get 5 in nexxtech assorted pack 2719006 at radio shack - 4$) you can easily put together an inline mixer. The diagram that follows shows how both with external splitters, which is easier, and splitting them internally, which is cheaper. Note that because this isn't a powered design, each resistor lowers the final output by 3dB - or about 18dB for all 6 channels! Do not just wire several splitters together. Do not assemble this circuit without the resistors. They are needed to stop the current from flowing backwards into your sound card. </disclaimer> The volume loss is not so noticeable since it's only on the subwoofer channel, but you may need to adjust your receiver's levels accordingly - if you do also have a digital connection, it's recommended to only mix the 5 channels that GET sound in games. Using this connector, your mains still receive full-range sound because you disable bass redirection, letting your receiver or active subwoofer do the crossover.
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Old Dec 13, 2005, 08:30 PM   #10
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sarelc u can install only the mixer itself

so do i understand correctly, that creative don't give a fuck about users with non-creative speakers?...
i've just sold my crappy-shit speakers and looking forward to buying creative t6060... hopefully?? i'm considering also logitech x530...
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 05:02 AM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyJohn
u can install only the mixer itself
Yeah, but all that's good for is changing the individual volumes - the bass is still removed from the other speakers. Which as I said, sounds really bunk. The sub is meant to complement the mains, not replace them. Having to mess with the levels is a mediocre solution - when I want to game, I want to hit multi-in on my remote, and go.

Now as far as Creative is concerned, they are a huge company and I don't think I expect them to be any more responsible than any other huge company that is in the business of selling end-user products. But something is obviously being left out, people have been complaining about this bass thing since the Audigy 2 came out several years ago. I can even understand if the sub output is only for the LFE channel in media - but if that is the case then where is that stated in the manual/in their knowledge base/on their forums/on the product box? To me, does not constitute a REAL 5.1 sound card - not that there's much else out there, if you want up to date EAX support. Over the two years I've had the card, I've dealt with their techs a number of times, and while they are quite good about getting back to you, even the second tier staff that I've been in touch with don't seem to get what I'm saying - that yes, the speakers are connected right, yes, they test fine - but there's simply no sound from the output. If it is only for LFE, then why in the world don't any of their staff know that? On other speaker systems - I would highly recommend you contact Logitech or whoever else and ask them whether their set has a builtin crossover, if it doesn't then you'll likely be having the same problem I am. It'll work fine for dvds, but games will have no boom. But again I have to wonder, because the post about LFE only was not from Creative's staff afaik, and you'd think with all the digging I've done into the problem, that I'd have found a page on at least one competitor's site saying no, your (Logitech, etc) speakers are not defective - Audigy2 cards don't blah blah. There is hope they'll implement some changes to the drivers someday, but I'm not counting on it - I'm building the box I mentioned above, but at a premium of $30. Maybe I should send them the bill?
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Old Dec 14, 2005, 10:17 AM   #12
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any way to check if there is a builtin crossover? google doesn't help... any ideas? (t6060 & logi x530)

well then, it seems to me as if creative wanted to force users to buy only their products, from what u say i assume that creative a2 + creative speakers work great (true?) but onbly because they've got builtin crossover...

if only this is the case then the solution is not that complicated... to iron several wires... no big deal, but the fact is that it should be either sold as a special device or added to the card as a device, which could be used if u have non-creative speakers.

u did a lot of digging, a lot of great job, thank you
what other forums / web sited except for creative forum did u dig in?




edit:
just got my t6060, the sound is crystal clear and this undobtedly HAS an bulitin crossover, there is no comparision to my old shit mediatech speakers...
no bas redirection function is necessary now...

my old ones didn't have a crossover so i had to pump up bass in the drivers...
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Old Dec 15, 2005, 08:56 AM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #13
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Glad you're liking your new system. I somehow missed jiiteepee's short post about the product number, and decided to get around to looking at the card itself since the oem ones are described as either Gateway or DELL, which I knew it wasn't. What I actually have is the Audigy 2 from a variety pack - which amounts to the same thing, as it's just the regular AU2 card and the installation cd, in an anti-static bag.
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Old Dec 15, 2005, 05:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyJohn
just got my t6060, the sound is crystal clear and this undobtedly HAS an bulitin crossover, there is no comparision to my old shit mediatech speakers...
no bas redirection function is necessary now...
Hmm, that must be it, I've been following the last few posts in this thread, but I've never had the bass problem, just overall reduced volume with my speakers running through a reciever. Bass redirection should always be left off if possible in the Creative settings, for any half-decent speakers, it will sound worse if changed.
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Old Dec 15, 2005, 05:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelig
for any half-decent speakers, it will sound worse if changed.
it does
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Old Dec 15, 2005, 07:35 PM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelig
I've never had the bass problem, just overall reduced volume with my speakers running through a reciever.
What are you comparing the levels to, other line-level devices?
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Old Dec 15, 2005, 08:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarelc
What are you comparing the levels to, other line-level devices?
Not following exactly...

I've only tried a reciever with a Klipsch 5.1 ultra set/Audigy 2 ZS. With the reciever, using analog connections, all the sound was softer. Turning up the main speaker volume by about +10 brought the volume back to its original sound.
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Old Dec 15, 2005, 08:28 PM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #18
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That's what I wanted to know - what you were saying it was quieter than. I have no idea about that, when I'm in the mood to game I don't usually take time to mess around with settings. Next time I play I'll try and remember to disable the subwoofer, and then switch back and forth between digital and analogue and see if the volume changes.
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Old Dec 17, 2005, 08:06 AM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #19
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A million (ok well... maybe 30) hours of swearing like a pirate, setting stuff on fire, dozens of tylenol and even more empty beer bottles later - success!

some pics of it installed.


I didn't actually set anything on fire. Or drink... or relieve my constant headache. I haven't even tried the damn thing yet, but all the wiring tests ok on the multimetre. I'm very afraid it'll break while I'm plugging it in, but oh well. I was going to take more pics but my *cough*creative*cough* webcam software keeps crashing. I'll have more tomorrow, including clear answers from a dude at Creative.
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Old Dec 17, 2005, 10:22 AM   #20
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nice
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Old Dec 17, 2005, 11:16 AM   #21
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Old Dec 20, 2005, 03:32 PM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #22
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Thanks! It works great too, now that I closed the connections I forgot about. Zelig - about the volume, I think it is a little quieter, but only about +/-1 level on my receiver. Which isn't much of a problem - Since I installed the box I haven't used the digital coax at all, so I don't generally have to adjust it. I was worried about putting the subwoofer passthrough on the box (the blue jack on the end) because I wasn't sure how the 30gauge wire I used would hold up, even though they're just line level connections. But because of the layout on the back of my amp I didn't have much choice, and happily my fears were unfounded. That was the only appropriately sized project box I could find, being not too big/small and having slots for pc board, but it still blocks the Video 1 inputs, which luckily isn't a big deal. Oh yeah, those answers from Creative... I've been putting off typing them out, but I'll get around to it later today.
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Old Jan 2, 2006, 05:44 PM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #23
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exclamation all of the answers to your audigy/2 subwoofer questions. (or mine, anyway..)

Errrr... whoops. That's surely a fine example of how to get things done, I know. But now the forum is back up (or my dns server can find it again, whichever ;P ) So here it is. Yes, I am just pasting from my post on the Creative board. Yes, I am being lazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarelc
As I said in my last post, this based on my correspondence with Mr Williams. As well, the first answer is taken from this rather old AVSForum post, which is worth reading. So here at-last-and-maybe-should-be-posted-elsewhere-in-a-sticky, are some definitive...

[COLOR=Red].ANSWERS.[/COLOR]
  • Q. Is the [Audigy] analog subwoofer out capable of full range 20Hz - 22KHz?
  • A. Subwoofer data is filtered to less than 800hz by the sound card. As far as I know, the subwoofer filter is applied to the channel at all times.
  • Q. Is it somehow possible to keep the bass in the mains while using the Bass Redirect?
  • A. I have inquired about this, and unfortunately the Audigy series will not be able to support this feature. No specific reason was given at this time*. BUT.... I'm also told that this feature is supported in the X-Fi series' THX Setup Console - select large speaker for the main channel and the bass will not be taken away.
    *of course, the Audigy cards are getting old, and with the X-Fi series now tops in the product line it seems unlikely any big driver changes other than OpenAL support are on the way, imo.
  • Q. There has been some speculation that the subwoofer-specific output on the Audigy series is active only when internally decoding pre-recorded streams with an LFE channel (such as a DVD), or when the Bass Redirect is enabled. Can you confirm that it is otherwise silent?
  • A. When the configuration is set to 5.1, the subwoofer output works with at least 3 audio Wave audio types:
    1. Encoded once, AC3/MLP/DTS audio (Encoded stream having subwoofer channels, mostly on DVD audio.)
    2. DirectSound with Multichannel audio files (such as .ac3 music files.)
    3. ASIO audio, in audio applications such as Qubase, have access to all 3 pairs of audio channels.
  • Q. What about games using DirectSound?
  • A. Most windows games do not support the BASS output channel in DirectSound3D. This is why we have the Bass Redirect in our product to help. BUT... there are some games, such as Doom3, that have integrated software mixing, and do include a BASS channel. DirectSound supports all channels, including the Sub, but DS3D does not seem to reference the subwoofer, only the 3D positioning and effects. So in a 5.1 configuration, only the 5 main speakers (F-L/R, R-L/R, C) are used.
  • Q. So if I were using a computer-specific speaker set, would I not need to use the Bass Redirect?
  • A. Creative's speakers have integrated redirection, as do many other brands of similar equipment. So in that case, you wouldn't need to have that option turned on.
  • Q. Is the missing .1 channel specific to DS3D? Or is it the games themselves?
  • A. Unsure. Some quick searches on microsoft's site did not turn up anything, but this article implies that some new games* are using the sub.
    *Doom3, HL2, and Pariah are the only ones mentioned, so it may only be referring to games that do their own sound mixing.
/links updated Sept2011/
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