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Old May 18, 2004, 08:37 AM   #1
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ATIs offical response regarding trilinear filtering algorithms

ATI have given Driverheaven a response to recent claims which have been circulating on the internet

There has been a lot of discussion about our trilinear filtering algorithms recently.

The objective of trilinear filtering is to make transitions between mipmap levels as near to invisible as possible. As long as this is achieved, there is no right or wrong way to implement the filtering.

We have added intelligence to our filtering algorithm to increase performance without affecting image quality. As some people have discovered, it is possible to show differences between our filtering implementations for the RADEON 9800XT and RADEON X800. However, these differences can only be seen by subtracting before and after screenshots and amplifying the result. No-one has claimed that the differences make one implementation better than another.

Our algorithm for image analysis-based texture filtering techniques is patent-pending. It works by determining how different one mipmap level is from the next and then applying the appropriate level of filtering. It only applies this optimization to the typical case specifically, where the mipmaps are generated using box filtering. Atypical situations, where each mipmap could differ significantly from the previous level, receive no optimizations. This includes extreme cases such as colored mipmap levels, which is why tests based on color mipmap levels show different results. Just to be explicit: there is no application detection going on; this just illustrates the sophistication of the algorithm.

We encourage users to experiment with moving the texture preference slider from Quality towards Performance you will see huge performance gains with no effect on image quality until the very end, and even then, the effect is hardly noticeable. We are confident that we give gamers the best image quality at every performance level.

Microsoft does set some standards for texture filtering and the companys WHQL process includes extensive image quality tests for trilinear filtering and mipmapping. CATALYST passes all these tests and without application detection, which could be used if you wanted to get a lower-quality algorithm go undetected through the tests.

Finally, ATI takes image quality extremely seriously and we are confident that we set the bar for the whole industry. We dont undertake changes to our filtering algorithms lightly, and perform considerable on-line and off-line image analysis before implementing changes. This algorithm has been in public use for over a year in our RADEON 9600 series products, and we have not received any adverse comments on image quality in that time. If anyone does find any quality degradation as a result of this algorithm, they are invited to report it to ATI. If there is a problem, we will fix it.

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Old May 18, 2004, 08:41 AM   #2
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Way 2 go ATI!!!! Thumbs up!!!
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Old May 18, 2004, 09:14 AM   #3
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Again:

ATI = Professional Response

Nvidia = Hides somewhere in the dark
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Old May 18, 2004, 09:33 AM   #4
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Nvidia = Hides somewhere in the dark
with a rubber chicken
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Old May 18, 2004, 09:38 AM   #5
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that owned all those people who were "angry" and "disapointed" yesterday :P
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Old May 18, 2004, 09:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Neon_Cowboy
with a rubber chicken


But it's not made of rubber, it's some kind of plastic but they want us to belive it's rubber (they optimise again)
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Old May 18, 2004, 09:44 AM Threadstarter Thread Starter   #7
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Can we keep this thread relating to the subject please?
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Old May 18, 2004, 10:02 AM   #8
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Thanks Ati,
A good & clear response.
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Old May 18, 2004, 10:04 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zardon
Can we keep this thread relating to the subject please?
yes indeed.

So does the new alogorithm only apply to the x800 cards then? cause it isnt to clear to me still.

Anyway at least they gave a response after 2 days which is very cool

OK yes it only applies to x800
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Old May 18, 2004, 10:27 AM   #10
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Re: ATIs offical response to recent claims

Very nice and fast response.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zardon
If anyone does find any quality degradation as a result of this algorithm, they are invited to report it to ATI. If there is a problem, we will fix it.
This is good approach to possible problems. Congrats ATI!
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Old May 18, 2004, 10:46 AM   #11
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This dissappointed my housemate who is nvidia through and through, now he cant get his own back from all the jokes ive been making about the nvidia cheating :-D
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Old May 18, 2004, 12:44 PM   #12
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So they use this algorythm on x800 and 9600 ased cards. Why not use it on the 9800 based cards also as this could mean a speed increase
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Old May 18, 2004, 03:49 PM   #13
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they never said it wasent on the 9800/9700 series.
They just stated that the 9600 has been using the algorithm for over year and that noone complained.
tough i would like to know aswell if this has been implemented in all series.

good point!
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Old May 18, 2004, 03:50 PM   #14
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I knew there was a good answer for the accusations, actually it's a great answer and it shows that ATI is on top.
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Old May 18, 2004, 03:59 PM   #15
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Well said ATi. I am not surprised that they came out with a well thought out and professional response to the accusations. They just gained a bit deeper support from me for the future.
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Old May 18, 2004, 04:28 PM   #16
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Ba-Zing~

People throw trash onto their name and they brush it off with style
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Old May 18, 2004, 05:17 PM   #17
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Re: Ba-Zing~

Quote:
Originally posted by No_Style
People throw trash onto their name and they brush it off with style
that is seriously the best way anyone could have said it...... till someone else says something better of course
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Old May 18, 2004, 05:54 PM   #18
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CLEAN ! As always... ATI RULES
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Old May 18, 2004, 07:45 PM   #19
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Old May 18, 2004, 08:00 PM   #20
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lol
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Old May 18, 2004, 08:03 PM   #21
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Old May 18, 2004, 08:21 PM   #22
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I'm just going to post this.

They admited it! They were forcing optimizations for performance increases! There are Ati and Nvidia Even? Can we have an discussion with out everyother post being "NVIDA CHEATED"

P.S. I wish I had a Nvidia rubber ducky
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Old May 18, 2004, 08:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeycooly
I'm just going to post this.

They admited it! They were forcing optimizations for performance increases! There are Ati and Nvidia Even? Can we have an discussion with out everyother post being "NVIDA CHEATED"

P.S. I wish I had a Nvidia rubber ducky
Whaaa? They didn't cheat, they are running a more advanced algorithm to enhance performance but only when image quality will not suffer. It's not a cheat, and it's definitely not an application specific optimization either.


So according to you, anything that boosts performance is a cheat? I don't think so- I'm glad they are making advancements, and not reducing IQ for application and non-application specific IQ robbing optimizations like "some companies".
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Old May 18, 2004, 08:43 PM   #24
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Again! Come On MAN! This is what I am taking about! Anytime Ati is accused of anything it's defended with NVIDIA CHEATED! Nvidia did they same thing be it in a different manner which was not too good.
Ati's manner of reaction was very well done. I am just saying we need a sensable disscussion on wether IQ will be hurt and if this was a manner of cheating!

P.S. I OWN A 9800 PRO! (And I LOVE IT!)
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Old May 18, 2004, 08:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeycooly
Again! Come On MAN! This is what I am taking about! Anytime Ati is accused of anything it's defended with NVIDIA CHEATED! Nvidia did they same thing be it in a different manner which was not too good.
Ati's manner of reaction was very well done. I am just saying we need a sensable disscussion on wether IQ will be hurt and if this was a manner of cheating!

P.S. I OWN A 9800 PRO! (And I LOVE IT!)
Well, the same method has been used on the 9600 pro for a long time and no one noticed it before. Apparently there is no IQ hit with this. This was noticed with the X800 due to it being the newest and latest product from the company and everything and anything is being tried to find problems. Same thing was done with the 6800 card.
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Old May 18, 2004, 09:01 PM   #26
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I don't see this as cheating at all, my own interpretation of cheating is specifically targeting a particular application in order to acheive better performance than a rival while taking a hit in IQ by cutting corners. Using this type of algorithm seems to me to be common sense, it's like SIMD instruction sets on processors, why do it the hard way if there's a faster, better way?
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Old May 18, 2004, 09:57 PM   #27
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i understand that if you set the quality slider to max.... it will do the default standard method for "pure Quality" so.... it's not being forced...
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Old May 18, 2004, 10:00 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikeycooly
Again! Come On MAN! This is what I am taking about! Anytime Ati is accused of anything it's defended with NVIDIA CHEATED! Nvidia did they same thing be it in a different manner which was not too good.
Ati's manner of reaction was very well done. I am just saying we need a sensable disscussion on wether IQ will be hurt and if this was a manner of cheating!

P.S. I OWN A 9800 PRO! (And I LOVE IT!)
Then you would say that the Z-buffer (used by Ati AND Nvidia) is a cheat as well, because things that are behind other objects aren't drawn. In your reasoning they should? No way man
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Old May 19, 2004, 01:36 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by craig5320
..... ...... ....., my own interpretation of cheating is specifically targeting a particular application in order to acheive better performance than a rival while taking a hit in IQ by cutting corners.
Yup, that's as good a definition as any other, and by those standards what ATi is doing is not cheating. All they are doing is finding ways to speed up performance w/o IQ loss, and that's exactly what they should be doing.
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Old May 19, 2004, 01:54 AM   #30
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actually that's something Neon brought up when i was telling him.. showing him about PowerVR's methods... and how much they are saving bandwidth and processing time.... He said PVR was cheating.. lol..
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