Germans claim Nvidia caught "over optimising"

Warpy · Aug 31, 2005, 10:38 AM

WE CALL IT optimisation these days, but what do you call it when a firm over optimises? We used to call it something different in the days of the NV30, when Nvidia had to do something to make its chip work better and do better in benchmarks but to our surprise it seems to have done it again. The chaps from 3D Center, a very talented in-depth site, spotted and tested and proved that Nvidia is using a lower anisotropic filtering quality than any other card available.

Those guys noticed a texture shimmering problem when you are using normal driver settings. This was the case with NV40 cards but you could resolve this flickering by using high quality driver settings. This won't work on G70 based cards, so the guys well known for its thorough benchmarks went digging a little deeper into the chip.

It turns out that Nvidia is not doing anisotropic filtering the way it should and that the picture quality is the one to suffer. You will get the shimmering effect on your textures whenever you are using Geforce 7800GTX cards but you won't see this using Radeon cards.

The guys claimed that all NV40 and G70 cards will suffer from the same flickering problem and that these cards have "by far worse AF quality". They also add that Nvidia got the flickering because it was using general under sampling and as a result is getting the flickers. It's interesting to note that older Geforce 5800 Ultra won't suffer from this, just the new cards that 6800 or 7800 based.

Another German web site Computerbase , went a step further. It made a custom driver by changing the inf, where the driver could not recognise 7800GTX and use its optimisations. The card was listed as unknown but was working just fine. But when the guys went testing they noticed a massive performance drop when using those drivers, close to 30 percent and related it to anisotropic filtering. Nvidia has a lot to explain.

3DCenter, for the original article, is here in English while the Computerbase German article is here. We will ask Nvidia what is going on but we think there's something up. At lease the guys proved it isn’t a hardware bug - it's a driver problem only but performance drops dramatically as soon as you resolve it.

Source

Zardon · Aug 31, 2005, 10:41 AM

this was big news a while ago on 3dcentre regarding the somewhat poor AF methods they are using. Nvidia state this will be fixed in a forthcoming driver.

Warpy · Aug 31, 2005, 10:42 AM

Yeah, I caught the news from Guru3d. Someone mentioned a driver fix also, I guess we'll wait and see.

Zardon · Aug 31, 2005, 10:46 AM

78.03 driver will fix it apparently, bound to leak soon

studbagel9 · Aug 31, 2005, 03:00 PM

So did the site that changed the INF notice better quality as well as a performance drop, or just a loss with no gain in AF quality? Maybe nVidia just can't do Anisotropic filtering well?

Zardon · Aug 31, 2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by studbagel9

So did the site that changed the INF notice better quality as well as a performance drop, or just a loss with no gain in AF quality? Maybe nVidia just can't do Anisotropic filtering well?

they used to be able to........ if you have time check out the 3dcentre article, some good information in it.

studbagel9 · Aug 31, 2005, 06:59 PM

Do you have a URL Zardon? I went to google but I got some crazy imaging sites. I don't speak German either.

ReDGuiTaR · Aug 31, 2005, 07:04 PM

I beat you to it !

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/nvidia-graphics-cards/83484-nvidia-bad-aniso.html

Zardon · Aug 31, 2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by studbagel9

Do you have a URL Zardon? I went to google but I got some crazy imaging sites. I don't speak German either.

http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/g70_...n/index2_e.php

bake15 · Aug 31, 2005, 09:30 PM

i dont see what the big deal is, my 7800gtx shimmers no more than my x800xl did

Warpy · Aug 31, 2005, 10:40 PM

Here are some more details: Link

78.03 were leaked to Rollo on AnandTech's forums two or three days ago, he says it fixes shimmering on G70s. I've been bugging him to try them on his 6600GTs and se if it fixes those shimmering issues also.

Rollo says that he doesn't get the betas until just before they are publicly released, should be any day now.

ReDGuiTaR · Aug 31, 2005, 10:45 PM

NVidia has replied to this and say that is just a bug !!?? and it is supposed to be fixed in their next driver release .. as always they are fooling everyone !

Read the NVidia answer here : http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25820

Warpy · Sep 1, 2005, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReDGuiTaR

NVidia has replied to this and say that is just a bug !!?? and it is supposed to be fixed in their next driver release .. as always they are fooling everyone !

Read the NVidia answer here : http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25820

I already mentioned that above mate

CDsDontBurn · Sep 1, 2005, 01:05 AM

so nVidia is cheating again eh

bake15 · Sep 1, 2005, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReDGuiTaR

as always they are fooling everyone !

why? for releasing buggy drivers...

SFOSOK · Sep 1, 2005, 01:55 AM

I'm glad that will be fixed, I mean why would I buy a 7800 GTX if it wouldn't give me the best picture possible. If they won't fix it I'll wait and get the new ATI when it comes out. I still got my heart set on the 7800 GTX though.

Warpy · Sep 1, 2005, 09:19 AM

A new folder has been created on nVidia's FTP . It seems the official 78.01 is coming very soon. Apparently it seems to fix the shimmering issue among the Geforce 7 series.

There is also an empty folder on NVIDIA FTP called 78.03

The_Neon_Cowboy · Sep 1, 2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn

so nVidia is cheating again eh

What do you mean by that the started back at NV30 and have NEVER stopped since.
They've only gotten better at it and more extreme.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpy

A new folder has been created on nVidia's FTP . It seems the official 78.01 is coming very soon. Apparently it seems to fix the shimmering issue among the Geforce 7 series.

There is also an empty [color=#800080]folder[/color] on NVIDIA FTP called 78.03

OMG! why did they bother to create empty folders

Zardon · Sep 1, 2005, 10:04 AM

the funny thing is , via the dell 2405 ive tested the 7800GTX on, I can't see any shimmering at all (well a little with a few games), with 77.77..... im at a bit of a loss here as ive spent hours trying to reproduce it ...... I hear WOW is pretty bad however.

bake15 · Sep 1, 2005, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zardon

the funny thing is , via the dell 2405 ive tested the 7800GTX on, I can't see any shimmering at all (well a little with a few games), with 77.77..... im at a bit of a loss here as ive spent hours trying to reproduce it ...... I hear WOW is pretty bad however.

HL2 and F.E.A.R are the only games ive noticed the shimmering in and i got the same shimmering with ati hardware.

The_Neon_Cowboy · Sep 1, 2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zardon

the funny thing is , via the dell 2405 ive tested the 7800GTX on, I can't see any shimmering at all (well a little with a few games), with 77.77..... im at a bit of a loss here as ive spent hours trying to reproduce it ...... I hear WOW is pretty bad however.

some videos and info on the fixed driver

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...27&postcount=1

Zardon · Sep 1, 2005, 04:05 PM

I know i've read it all already.

dipstick · Sep 1, 2005, 06:54 PM

I cant say that I have noticed any myself but maybe its because I play at very high rez.

Zardon · Sep 1, 2005, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dipstick

I cant say that I have noticed any myself but maybe its because I play at very high rez.

That could be a contributing factor, ive spent the last week with a 7800GTX and it hasnt been an issue for me, but I game at 1600x1200 or 1920x1200.....

mike2h · Sep 1, 2005, 07:06 PM

neon, suppose it is impossible for nv to release buggy drivers, HAS to be a 'cheat'.
form what rollo said there is little to no fp loss with the fix so that pretty much destroys the 'cheat' theory.
we will know for sure in the next day or so. I am with warpy, i am really hoping this also helps with the shimmering in the 6xxx series. have not found a driver set yet that fixes it.

The_Neon_Cowboy · Sep 1, 2005, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike2h

neon, suppose it is impossible for nv to release buggy drivers, HAS to be a 'cheat'.
form what rollo said there is little to no fp loss with the fix so that pretty much destroys the 'cheat' theory.
we will know for sure in the next day or so. I am with warpy, i am really hoping this also helps with the shimmering in the 6xxx series. have not found a driver set yet that fixes it.

I've said nothing of the sort thus far, unless you referring to my response
to CDsDontBurn which is factual.

ChrisRay (considerd a complete and total NV fanboy, with flames coming out the side)
I take what he says with a grain of salt until I see some other confirmation after the
stuff i've seen a read in regards to him....

If anything I doubt they would have removed said optimizations .I would expect
they would have only improved of changed them to resolve the graphical issues or
bugs. Thus the performance won't really drop as it did when the german site "disabled"
said optumizations and who knows what others.

Only when tested again will it show one way or another about these new drivers
and wetther or not it fixes the game issues.

Can't trust it in 3Dmark with it either as I doubt that driver has yet to be aproved for testing use yet just the 77.72's. http://www.futuremark.com/community/drivers/?approved
also he only posted "partail" results 1 game test result insted of the complete score
for the bechmarks, so he ran but a fraction of the bechmark...

(Also when testing on NV i'd rename all the exe's anyways

)

Zardon · Sep 1, 2005, 08:17 PM

neon/mike, lets not turn this thread into another ATI v Nvidia thread (before it starts!), it really is worn out.

Lets discuss the drivers

mike2h · Sep 1, 2005, 08:19 PM

what did you think i was referring to?
so far the ONLY source of info for this 'cheat' is one lone site that did some hexediting to a driver set. pretty reliable stuff. not.
as far as the rest of your post....

Zardon · Sep 1, 2005, 08:23 PM

well I hear its only a 1 or 2 percent drop in framerate, if thats true its certainly not a big deal at all, the 7800s are lightining fast.

mike2h · Sep 1, 2005, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zardon

neon/mike, lets not turn this thread into another ATI v Nvidia thread (before it starts!), it really is worn out.

Lets discuss the drivers

sorry zardon. you are correct. to a point. there is no point in arguing about it as nobody knows yet what is really going on. but, the main/only issue of the drivers is the shimmering issue, which is supposed to be the result of 'cheating'. so there really is not much to discuss about one without involving the other. jmo

Aug 31, 2005, 10:38 AM	#1
Warpy DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2,761 Rep Power: 0	Germans claim Nvidia caught "over optimising" WE CALL IT optimisation these days, but what do you call it when a firm over optimises? We used to call it something different in the days of the NV30, when Nvidia had to do something to make its chip work better and do better in benchmarks but to our surprise it seems to have done it again. The chaps from 3D Center, a very talented in-depth site, spotted and tested and proved that Nvidia is using a lower anisotropic filtering quality than any other card available. Those guys noticed a texture shimmering problem when you are using normal driver settings. This was the case with NV40 cards but you could resolve this flickering by using high quality driver settings. This won't work on G70 based cards, so the guys well known for its thorough benchmarks went digging a little deeper into the chip. It turns out that Nvidia is not doing anisotropic filtering the way it should and that the picture quality is the one to suffer. You will get the shimmering effect on your textures whenever you are using Geforce 7800GTX cards but you won't see this using Radeon cards. The guys claimed that all NV40 and G70 cards will suffer from the same flickering problem and that these cards have "by far worse AF quality". They also add that Nvidia got the flickering because it was using general under sampling and as a result is getting the flickers. It's interesting to note that older Geforce 5800 Ultra won't suffer from this, just the new cards that 6800 or 7800 based. Another German web site Computerbase , went a step further. It made a custom driver by changing the inf, where the driver could not recognise 7800GTX and use its optimisations. The card was listed as unknown but was working just fine. But when the guys went testing they noticed a massive performance drop when using those drivers, close to 30 percent and related it to anisotropic filtering. Nvidia has a lot to explain. 3DCenter, for the original article, is here in English while the Computerbase German article is here. We will ask Nvidia what is going on but we think there's something up. At lease the guys proved it isn’t a hardware bug - it's a driver problem only but performance drops dramatically as soon as you resolve it. Source __________________ The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Aug 31, 2005, 10:42 AM	Thread Starter #3
Warpy DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2,761 Rep Power: 0	Yeah, I caught the news from Guru3d. Someone mentioned a driver fix also, I guess we'll wait and see. __________________ The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Aug 31, 2005, 03:00 PM	#5
studbagel9 Rolling the Hard Six Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lock Haven, PA Posts: 767 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	So did the site that changed the INF notice better quality as well as a performance drop, or just a loss with no gain in AF quality? Maybe nVidia just can't do Anisotropic filtering well? __________________

Aug 31, 2005, 06:59 PM	#7
studbagel9 Rolling the Hard Six Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lock Haven, PA Posts: 767 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Do you have a URL Zardon? I went to google but I got some crazy imaging sites. I don't speak German either. __________________

Aug 31, 2005, 10:40 PM	Thread Starter #11
Warpy DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2,761 Rep Power: 0	Here are some more details: Link 78.03 were leaked to Rollo on AnandTech's forums two or three days ago, he says it fixes shimmering on G70s. I've been bugging him to try them on his 6600GTs and se if it fixes those shimmering issues also. Rollo says that he doesn't get the betas until just before they are publicly released, should be any day now. __________________ The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Aug 31, 2005, 10:41 AM	#2
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	this was big news a while ago on 3dcentre regarding the somewhat poor AF methods they are using. Nvidia state this will be fixed in a forthcoming driver.

Aug 31, 2005, 10:46 AM	#4
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	78.03 driver will fix it apparently, bound to leak soon

Aug 31, 2005, 07:04 PM	#8
ReDGuiTaR DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Quebec , Canada Posts: 746 Rep Power: 0	I beat you to it ! http://www.hardwareheaven.com/nvidia-graphics-cards/83484-nvidia-bad-aniso.html __________________ Zing a ling... zing a ling a ling ... A8N-E - A64x2 4600, 2048 Mb Kingston ram 400mhz cas 2.5 ( 2 x 1024 DualChannel ), Seagate 320 Gig 7200 16Mb cache S-ata 2, GeForce 7900GT 512MB, Enermax 460watt power supply, WindowsXP SP2.

Aug 31, 2005, 09:30 PM	#10
bake15 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Wigan,UK Posts: 582 Rep Power: 0	i dont see what the big deal is, my 7800gtx shimmers no more than my x800xl did

Aug 31, 2005, 10:45 PM	#12
ReDGuiTaR DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Quebec , Canada Posts: 746 Rep Power: 0	NVidia has replied to this and say that is just a bug !!?? and it is supposed to be fixed in their next driver release .. as always they are fooling everyone ! Read the NVidia answer here : http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25820 __________________ Zing a ling... zing a ling a ling ... A8N-E - A64x2 4600, 2048 Mb Kingston ram 400mhz cas 2.5 ( 2 x 1024 DualChannel ), Seagate 320 Gig 7200 16Mb cache S-ata 2, GeForce 7900GT 512MB, Enermax 460watt power supply, WindowsXP SP2.

Sep 1, 2005, 01:05 AM	#14
CDsDontBurn Lurking DriverHeaven Join Date: May 2003 Location: Southern California Posts: 22,794 Rep Power: 235 System Specs	so nVidia is cheating again eh __________________ Her First Day \| A year later

Sep 1, 2005, 01:55 AM	#16
SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 7,033 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	I'm glad that will be fixed, I mean why would I buy a 7800 GTX if it wouldn't give me the best picture possible. If they won't fix it I'll wait and get the new ATI when it comes out. I still got my heart set on the 7800 GTX though. __________________ Warning - Explicit Content Preceeding METAL!!

Sep 1, 2005, 09:19 AM	Thread Starter #17
Warpy DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2,761 Rep Power: 0	A new folder has been created on nVidia's FTP . It seems the official 78.01 is coming very soon. Apparently it seems to fix the shimmering issue among the Geforce 7 series. There is also an empty folder on NVIDIA FTP called 78.03 __________________ The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Sep 1, 2005, 10:04 AM	#19
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	the funny thing is , via the dell 2405 ive tested the 7800GTX on, I can't see any shimmering at all (well a little with a few games), with 77.77..... im at a bit of a loss here as ive spent hours trying to reproduce it ...... I hear WOW is pretty bad however.

Sep 1, 2005, 04:05 PM	#22
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	I know i've read it all already.

Sep 1, 2005, 06:54 PM	#23
dipstick HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: USA Posts: 3,609 Rep Power: 71 System Specs	I cant say that I have noticed any myself but maybe its because I play at very high rez.

Sep 1, 2005, 07:06 PM	#25
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	neon, suppose it is impossible for nv to release buggy drivers, HAS to be a 'cheat'. form what rollo said there is little to no fp loss with the fix so that pretty much destroys the 'cheat' theory. we will know for sure in the next day or so. I am with warpy, i am really hoping this also helps with the shimmering in the 6xxx series. have not found a driver set yet that fixes it. __________________

Sep 1, 2005, 08:17 PM	#27
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	neon/mike, lets not turn this thread into another ATI v Nvidia thread (before it starts!), it really is worn out. Lets discuss the drivers

Sep 1, 2005, 08:19 PM	#28
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 91 System Specs	what did you think i was referring to? so far the ONLY source of info for this 'cheat' is one lone site that did some hexediting to a driver set. pretty reliable stuff. not. as far as the rest of your post.... __________________

Sep 1, 2005, 08:23 PM	#29
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	well I hear its only a 1 or 2 percent drop in framerate, if thats true its certainly not a big deal at all, the 7800s are lightining fast.