My GF4 Died!!

Madgoat1979 · Dec 24, 2002, 05:18 PM

ok,

Here I am typing on my P2 400mhz machine because my Pny ti 4200 died last night. I dont know what happend to it.

I had done nothing to the machine at all, i simply went to the room turned it on and it wouldnt boot. So I thought a little bit and cleared the cmos memory. Then booted again, It came up!

Then about when it detects my hard drives (no to long after it booted).... I looked like my screen melted off the edge of the monitor. It slowly slid down the screen.

Now, my card is dead.... It wont boot in any machine... I tested the AGP slot on my m-board... and its fine...

What is this? I didnt have the card overclocked or anything, (I set it back in fear something like this might happen.)

When the card is put in the slot and booted the machine wont sound the boot beep prompt. It rather acts like my bios has been wrongly flashed....

But the fan on the card spins.......... This is very confuzzzing.

Can someone help? At least tell me why it died?

Thanks a bunch...

MadGoat

Dom · Dec 24, 2002, 05:20 PM

Any electrical-storms around where you live last night?

Madgoat1979 · Dec 24, 2002, 05:23 PM

It has been raining... but no lightning. And I keep the power running to the computer cut off when its not on, its on a power switch strip under my monitor, i turn that on then hit the power button on my comp...(is this a good or bad thing? though it was better safety)

Dom · Dec 24, 2002, 05:28 PM

Could have been a bad power-surge where you live while you were sleeping. If your computer was pluged-in at all it still might have gotten through.

Necrosis · Dec 24, 2002, 05:41 PM

Hmm..there isn't much you can do if your card is whacked out like this. I hope it's still under warranty.

digitalwanderer · Dec 24, 2002, 05:51 PM

I think I read something somewhere recently about a whole slew of GF4s from one manufacturer recently started going bad, but I can't remember which. I'll hunt it up in a little bit when I got a second and post it. (I think it was on warp2search 3 days ago)

EDITED BITS: It was Gainward that peeps were having trouble with, here's the link. (Does Gainward make PNY? Or are they different companies?)

Madgoat1979 · Dec 24, 2002, 10:47 PM

I have been trying to get ahold of PNY for my "lifetime" warranty on my card.... and they have a great way of ignoring their buyers!

I have left several messages and they will not call me back, nor can I talk to a REAL person!They are screwing people out of this "lifetime" warranty. Can anyone help me get ahold of them, and maybe turn some attention to this problem.

Pny is False advertising their "lifetime" warranty, and tech support to everyone. (plus best buy wants to have nothing to do with the warranty part of this deal!) can someone please help?

I dont want to have to buy another 130 dollar card! (this soon at least!)

thanks...

MADGOAT

DriveEuro · Dec 25, 2002, 07:35 AM

Hmmm, hope my PNY doesn't fry.......hahah rhymes.

Dec 25, 2002, 03:09 PM

Question :

Did you try booting up with another card??

If it was a power surge the vidcard wouldnt be the only thing effected.

Did it act funny at all before this happened(freezes etc.) ??

Also try pulling it out again and cleaning the interface of the card.

Its very rare for a card to just up and die unless it was overheating,not seated correctly or had a factory problem that would show from day one.

If its a PSU problem it should naturally effect something else too....like ram ,cpu and other sloted cards.
Dont look at the fan thats turning either cause it gets power from the 12v rail.

I suspect the psu......

Madgoat1979 · Dec 25, 2002, 06:35 PM

yeah,

When I turned on my computer it wouldnt start up.

So I turned it off again, then I turned it on again to see what was going on....

this time it turned on... I saw the bios start up as usual.,...

then right about when it got to detecting the hard drive... It blocked up like it does when you overclock the ram too much...

then it beeped at me twice and the picture (bios settings at this point) slide down the screen, then the monitor went to standby (this is all with the power still on to the computer)

So this happend in about 4-5 seconds... I turned off the comp... and it wouldn't start again....

having the 4200 card in the computer keeps the computer from posting... at all.... with it in the slot it acts like it doesnt have a bios to boot.... (it does this in any computer now, doesnt allow it to post)

But I know my computer m-board... and ram and the like is fine...

Im typing on the same computer now (With a tnt2 pluged in the place of the 4200) But I have done just about every test to be sure the rest of my components are fine. Seems to be fine so far...

I have thought about everything, and I can not come to any conclusion as to why this might happen.

though, there is "one" thing...

I looked at the board closely looking for anything wrong, I found one resistor that looks "Bloated".

Its been deformed in some way..... and when the card is powered on, this esistor creates a lot of heat on both sides of the card. This is the only thing that "looks" wrong on the card.

And one more note: I can pop in a pci card and boot to pci vga card and be able to flash the bios on the "dead" card with the aid of a pci card. But when its in the agp slot and the m-board is looking for the vga card on agp it wont start.... otherwise pci works....

donno.... I thought if the card died... the flash wouldnt work anymore.... but it still does, and says it has no problem doing it...

anyway, just some more info..

MadGoat

ToshiroOC · Dec 25, 2002, 08:20 PM

I think you suffered a severe hardware failure. This happened to me when I was building a computer for a friend - one of the parts on the board (a capacitor for us) heated up and caught fire and even started melting its own solder before it got unplugged... Really the only practical thing to do is to talk to the makers of the card or the reseller and talk to them about getting a replacement. Make sure you include lots of words that impress the seriousness of the situation in the email like, "hellfire", "fuming", "billowing smoke", so on and so forth...

Oscar · Dec 26, 2002, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by digitalwanderer
I think I read something somewhere recently about a whole slew of GF4s from one manufacturer recently started going bad, but I can't remember which. I'll hunt it up in a little bit when I got a second and post it. (I think it was on warp2search 3 days ago)

EDITED BITS: It was Gainward that peeps were having trouble with, here's the link. (Does Gainward make PNY? Or are they different companies?)

Gainward and PNY are different companies. I have a Gainward GeForce4 Ti4200 myself, so I called their California office a few weeks ago. They were really friendly on the phone and gave me a RMA number no longer than five minutes. After I shipped my original card over, I got a brand one back within two weeks

The_Neon_Cowboy · Dec 26, 2002, 01:25 PM

mabe the video cards bios is fryed does your card have duel bios? mine just has a jumper I change if the vide cards bios becomes corrupt....

Dec 26, 2002, 02:30 PM

No friend if the bios was corrupt it would post but beep.

In a case of NON posting we look for shorts or burnouts.

Madgoat1979 · Dec 26, 2002, 03:52 PM

yeah, it doesnt allow my comp to post at all....

Oscar · Dec 26, 2002, 10:17 PM

Where did you buy your video card from? Have you tried to ask for a replacement from your vendor yet?

Madgoat1979 · Dec 27, 2002, 03:45 AM

I bought it from best Buy...

I took it back to them... and they said that I needed to contact the company PNY...

Appears that they dont support the "lifetime warranty" of the card.. (such that it is) but rather only have the 30 day return date if you buy it....

So either way, if you buy a warranty from them on a retail item... your screwed...

Luckly... I called PNY AGAIN! and told them they would have to be looking at the Better Business Bureau if they didnt return my call!

And guess what! At 8:30 in the morning... I get a Wake up call from the nice folks at PNY!

I cought myself a RMA # and sent it off.... now half the battle is won..

Now I can only wait and see if a "New" card will come back.... and not the origional. But thanks for your thoughts on everything....

BUT!

I have another good ponder for you all, Would it be wise to buy a 9700 "non-pro" car for the 80 dollars cheaper, than to buy the 9700pro for so much? The proformance increase betwean the two are near to none.... and I dont think the proformance on the card will be out witted any time soon... (or in any time for me to buy a new card..)

The proformance to money ratio looks good... Plus It look as though I might be able to pick up some ram sinks... and maybe a better cooler for the card... and all equal the value of a "PRO" card...

Does ths sound good? Seems to be the path im am leaning (and just about to step) into...

thanks,
MadGoat

DriveEuro · Dec 27, 2002, 04:08 AM

Hey, you stuck ASIII on your GPU didn't you MadGoat? I doubt that they will take it back then. Most companies are shmucks like that. I hope my card doesn't die. I stuck ASIII on the GPU (although it did not yield any results.)

Madgoat1979 · Dec 27, 2002, 04:12 AM

Ehhh,

No I didnt do anything to the heatsink on the gpu. I "was"... but didnt... then it died... (thank goodness I didnt)

But yeah... nothing on the card was changed...sooo, I hope a new one might be in the future for me.....

(I want a Tt GF4 Cooler, but I think Im gonna save for a 9700 first)

MadGoat

DriveEuro · Dec 27, 2002, 04:29 AM

That cooler isn't any better than our stock PNY cooler......except it is copper...

Madgoat1979 · Dec 27, 2002, 04:41 AM

ahhhhhh, ok... thanks... I've been trying to get someone's input on it... but It seems I will be looking for a replacment for the 4200 after this gander...

Oscar · Dec 27, 2002, 05:30 AM

Madgoat,

Glad to hear that things are working out for ya. Congratulations

!

As for the Radeon 9700 Pro vs Radeon 9700 question, I think it'd be wise to wait for nVidia's NV31 due next spring from a price-performance ratio perspective

DriveEuro · Dec 27, 2002, 05:36 AM

Do you mean NV35, or the NV30?

Oscar · Dec 27, 2002, 06:20 AM

NV30: DirectX 9.x compatible; bypassing Radeon 9700 Pro in both features and performance; can also compete against R350; $399 ~ $499 USD; Q4 2002

NV31: DirectX 9.x compatible; bypassing Radeon 9500 Pro in both features and performance; can also compete against RV350; $199 ~ $299 USD; Q1 2003

NV31M: NV31 Mobile; competing against Mobility M10; Q1 2003

NV34: DirectX 9.x; competing against RV350; $100 ~ $199 USD; Q2 2003

NV35: DirectX 9.x; bypassing R350 in features and performance; can also compete against R400; Q2/Q3 2003

NV40: DirectX 10; competing against R400; fall/winter 2003

ToshiroOC · Dec 27, 2002, 06:53 AM

Wow Oscar - very very very interesting. What is your source? Was this from a website? If so, I would be very interested in seeing the originator. Personally though I think we will need to see how the 350's do and how everything ends up priced (especially on the street) before we make any final judgements about what we will be buying...

Dec 24, 2002, 05:18 PM	#1
Madgoat1979 VTX NuTz!!! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 763 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	My GF4 Died!! ok, Here I am typing on my P2 400mhz machine because my Pny ti 4200 died last night. I dont know what happend to it. I had done nothing to the machine at all, i simply went to the room turned it on and it wouldnt boot. So I thought a little bit and cleared the cmos memory. Then booted again, It came up! Then about when it detects my hard drives (no to long after it booted).... I looked like my screen melted off the edge of the monitor. It slowly slid down the screen. Now, my card is dead.... It wont boot in any machine... I tested the AGP slot on my m-board... and its fine... What is this? I didnt have the card overclocked or anything, (I set it back in fear something like this might happen.) When the card is put in the slot and booted the machine wont sound the boot beep prompt. It rather acts like my bios has been wrongly flashed.... But the fan on the card spins.......... This is very confuzzzing. Can someone help? At least tell me why it died? Thanks a bunch... MadGoat __________________

Dec 24, 2002, 05:23 PM	Thread Starter #3
Madgoat1979 VTX NuTz!!! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 763 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	??? It has been raining... but no lightning. And I keep the power running to the computer cut off when its not on, its on a power switch strip under my monitor, i turn that on then hit the power button on my comp...(is this a good or bad thing? though it was better safety) __________________

Dec 24, 2002, 05:51 PM	#6
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,619 Rep Power: 0	Oh man, sorry to hear! I think I read something somewhere recently about a whole slew of GF4s from one manufacturer recently started going bad, but I can't remember which. I'll hunt it up in a little bit when I got a second and post it. (I think it was on warp2search 3 days ago) EDITED BITS: It was Gainward that peeps were having trouble with, here's the link. (Does Gainward make PNY? Or are they different companies?) __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Dec 24, 2002, 10:47 PM	Thread Starter #7
Madgoat1979 VTX NuTz!!! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 763 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	pny sucks! I have been trying to get ahold of PNY for my "lifetime" warranty on my card.... and they have a great way of ignoring their buyers! I have left several messages and they will not call me back, nor can I talk to a REAL person!They are screwing people out of this "lifetime" warranty. Can anyone help me get ahold of them, and maybe turn some attention to this problem. Pny is False advertising their "lifetime" warranty, and tech support to everyone. (plus best buy wants to have nothing to do with the warranty part of this deal!) can someone please help? I dont want to have to buy another 130 dollar card! (this soon at least!) thanks... MADGOAT __________________

Dec 25, 2002, 07:35 AM	#8
DriveEuro HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gurnee Illinois Posts: 4,677 Rep Power: 0	Hmmm, hope my PNY doesn't fry.......hahah rhymes. __________________ [color=orange]ASUS P4P800 Deluxe [color=black]-[/color] 2.4C --> 3300mhz [color=black]-[/color] Mushkin PC3200 at 220 5-2-2-2 (cpu limited) [color=black]-[/color] BBAti 9800Pro at 430/375 [/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]01[/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]03[/color] 16001200 12801024

Dec 24, 2002, 05:20 PM	#2
Dom DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,940 Rep Power: 0	Any electrical-storms around where you live last night?

Dec 24, 2002, 05:28 PM	#4
Dom DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,940 Rep Power: 0	Could have been a bad power-surge where you live while you were sleeping. If your computer was pluged-in at all it still might have gotten through.

Dec 24, 2002, 05:41 PM	#5
Necrosis HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 8,838 Rep Power: 131 System Specs	Hmm..there isn't much you can do if your card is whacked out like this. I hope it's still under warranty.

Dec 25, 2002, 03:09 PM	#9
GREEKRAGE Guest Posts: n/a	Question : Did you try booting up with another card?? If it was a power surge the vidcard wouldnt be the only thing effected. Did it act funny at all before this happened(freezes etc.) ?? Also try pulling it out again and cleaning the interface of the card. Its very rare for a card to just up and die unless it was overheating,not seated correctly or had a factory problem that would show from day one. If its a PSU problem it should naturally effect something else too....like ram ,cpu and other sloted cards. Dont look at the fan thats turning either cause it gets power from the 12v rail. I suspect the psu......

Dec 25, 2002, 06:35 PM	Thread Starter #10
Madgoat1979 VTX NuTz!!! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 763 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	yeah, When I turned on my computer it wouldnt start up. So I turned it off again, then I turned it on again to see what was going on.... this time it turned on... I saw the bios start up as usual.,... then right about when it got to detecting the hard drive... It blocked up like it does when you overclock the ram too much... then it beeped at me twice and the picture (bios settings at this point) slide down the screen, then the monitor went to standby (this is all with the power still on to the computer) So this happend in about 4-5 seconds... I turned off the comp... and it wouldn't start again.... having the 4200 card in the computer keeps the computer from posting... at all.... with it in the slot it acts like it doesnt have a bios to boot.... (it does this in any computer now, doesnt allow it to post) But I know my computer m-board... and ram and the like is fine... Im typing on the same computer now (With a tnt2 pluged in the place of the 4200) But I have done just about every test to be sure the rest of my components are fine. Seems to be fine so far... I have thought about everything, and I can not come to any conclusion as to why this might happen. though, there is "one" thing... I looked at the board closely looking for anything wrong, I found one resistor that looks "Bloated". Its been deformed in some way..... and when the card is powered on, this esistor creates a lot of heat on both sides of the card. This is the only thing that "looks" wrong on the card. And one more note: I can pop in a pci card and boot to pci vga card and be able to flash the bios on the "dead" card with the aid of a pci card. But when its in the agp slot and the m-board is looking for the vga card on agp it wont start.... otherwise pci works.... donno.... I thought if the card died... the flash wouldnt work anymore.... but it still does, and says it has no problem doing it... anyway, just some more info.. MadGoat __________________

Dec 25, 2002, 08:20 PM	#11
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	I think you suffered a severe hardware failure. This happened to me when I was building a computer for a friend - one of the parts on the board (a capacitor for us) heated up and caught fire and even started melting its own solder before it got unplugged... Really the only practical thing to do is to talk to the makers of the card or the reseller and talk to them about getting a replacement. Make sure you include lots of words that impress the seriousness of the situation in the email like, "hellfire", "fuming", "billowing smoke", so on and so forth... __________________ [img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Dec 26, 2002, 01:25 PM	#13
The_Neon_Cowboy HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16,009 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	hmmm mabe the video cards bios is fryed does your card have duel bios? mine just has a jumper I change if the vide cards bios becomes corrupt.... __________________

Dec 26, 2002, 02:30 PM	#14
GREEKRAGE Guest Posts: n/a	No friend if the bios was corrupt it would post but beep. In a case of NON posting we look for shorts or burnouts.

Dec 26, 2002, 03:52 PM	Thread Starter #15
Madgoat1979 VTX NuTz!!! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 763 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	yeah, it doesnt allow my comp to post at all.... __________________

Dec 26, 2002, 10:17 PM	#16
Oscar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: GVA, Canada Posts: 47 Rep Power: 0	Where did you buy your video card from? Have you tried to ask for a replacement from your vendor yet?

Dec 27, 2002, 03:45 AM	Thread Starter #17
Madgoat1979 VTX NuTz!!! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 763 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	BEST frigg'in BUY! I bought it from best Buy... I took it back to them... and they said that I needed to contact the company PNY... Appears that they dont support the "lifetime warranty" of the card.. (such that it is) but rather only have the 30 day return date if you buy it.... So either way, if you buy a warranty from them on a retail item... your screwed... Luckly... I called PNY AGAIN! and told them they would have to be looking at the Better Business Bureau if they didnt return my call! And guess what! At 8:30 in the morning... I get a Wake up call from the nice folks at PNY! I cought myself a RMA # and sent it off.... now half the battle is won.. Now I can only wait and see if a "New" card will come back.... and not the origional. But thanks for your thoughts on everything.... BUT! I have another good ponder for you all, Would it be wise to buy a 9700 "non-pro" car for the 80 dollars cheaper, than to buy the 9700pro for so much? The proformance increase betwean the two are near to none.... and I dont think the proformance on the card will be out witted any time soon... (or in any time for me to buy a new card..) The proformance to money ratio looks good... Plus It look as though I might be able to pick up some ram sinks... and maybe a better cooler for the card... and all equal the value of a "PRO" card... Does ths sound good? Seems to be the path im am leaning (and just about to step) into... thanks, MadGoat __________________

Dec 27, 2002, 04:08 AM	#18
DriveEuro HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gurnee Illinois Posts: 4,677 Rep Power: 0	Hey, you stuck ASIII on your GPU didn't you MadGoat? I doubt that they will take it back then. Most companies are shmucks like that. I hope my card doesn't die. I stuck ASIII on the GPU (although it did not yield any results.) __________________ [color=orange]ASUS P4P800 Deluxe [color=black]-[/color] 2.4C --> 3300mhz [color=black]-[/color] Mushkin PC3200 at 220 5-2-2-2 (cpu limited) [color=black]-[/color] BBAti 9800Pro at 430/375 [/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]01[/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]03[/color] 16001200 12801024

Dec 27, 2002, 04:12 AM	Thread Starter #19
Madgoat1979 VTX NuTz!!! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 763 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	No AsIII for me Ehhh, No I didnt do anything to the heatsink on the gpu. I "was"... but didnt... then it died... (thank goodness I didnt) But yeah... nothing on the card was changed...sooo, I hope a new one might be in the future for me..... (I want a Tt GF4 Cooler, but I think Im gonna save for a 9700 first) MadGoat __________________

Dec 27, 2002, 04:29 AM	#20
DriveEuro HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gurnee Illinois Posts: 4,677 Rep Power: 0	That cooler isn't any better than our stock PNY cooler......except it is copper... __________________ [color=orange]ASUS P4P800 Deluxe [color=black]-[/color] 2.4C --> 3300mhz [color=black]-[/color] Mushkin PC3200 at 220 5-2-2-2 (cpu limited) [color=black]-[/color] BBAti 9800Pro at 430/375 [/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]01[/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]03[/color] 16001200 12801024

Dec 27, 2002, 04:41 AM	Thread Starter #21
Madgoat1979 VTX NuTz!!! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 763 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Thanks ahhhhhh, ok... thanks... I've been trying to get someone's input on it... but It seems I will be looking for a replacment for the 4200 after this gander... __________________

Dec 27, 2002, 05:30 AM	#22
Oscar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: GVA, Canada Posts: 47 Rep Power: 0	Madgoat, Glad to hear that things are working out for ya. Congratulations ! As for the Radeon 9700 Pro vs Radeon 9700 question, I think it'd be wise to wait for nVidia's NV31 due next spring from a price-performance ratio perspective

Dec 27, 2002, 05:36 AM	#23
DriveEuro HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gurnee Illinois Posts: 4,677 Rep Power: 0	Do you mean NV35, or the NV30? __________________ [color=orange]ASUS P4P800 Deluxe [color=black]-[/color] 2.4C --> 3300mhz [color=black]-[/color] Mushkin PC3200 at 220 5-2-2-2 (cpu limited) [color=black]-[/color] BBAti 9800Pro at 430/375 [/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]01[/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]03[/color] 16001200 12801024

Dec 27, 2002, 06:20 AM	#24
Oscar DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: GVA, Canada Posts: 47 Rep Power: 0	NV30: DirectX 9.x compatible; bypassing Radeon 9700 Pro in both features and performance; can also compete against R350; $399 ~ $499 USD; Q4 2002 NV31: DirectX 9.x compatible; bypassing Radeon 9500 Pro in both features and performance; can also compete against RV350; $199 ~ $299 USD; Q1 2003 NV31M: NV31 Mobile; competing against Mobility M10; Q1 2003 NV34: DirectX 9.x; competing against RV350; $100 ~ $199 USD; Q2 2003 NV35: DirectX 9.x; bypassing R350 in features and performance; can also compete against R400; Q2/Q3 2003 NV40: DirectX 10; competing against R400; fall/winter 2003

Dec 27, 2002, 06:53 AM	#25
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	Wow Oscar - very very very interesting. What is your source? Was this from a website? If so, I would be very interested in seeing the originator. Personally though I think we will need to see how the 350's do and how everything ends up priced (especially on the street) before we make any final judgements about what we will be buying... __________________ [img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)