[Tipstaff]

This isn't directed at any one person, but I really wish people would stop using "Wait until a DX10 video card comes out" or "Wait until Vista comes out" as justification on waiting to purchase anything computer related right now. Every single time someone says either of those 2 statements they NEVER have a reason for it. Just that you should wait. It simply doesn't make sense to me. I mean, why would you hold off buying a video card, or a computer just so that when you do buy it you will still have to wait to use the damn thing for the very reason you held off buying it in the first place?!? And you will have to wait, cuz you can't seriously tell me that as soon as Vista comes out that you will see a flood of DX10 or Vista only games. Any developer that does that will be commiting financial suicide as their potential market will be so God damn small they'd be lucky to make a penny from it.

Seriously guys, don't you realize that Vista supports DX9? Even if DX10 is released with Vista it also supports DX9, so your current card, or any card you buy now isn't going to be obsolete as soon as DX10/Vista comes out. Not only that, but it will probably be at least 6 months from now (at the minimum) before a DX10 desktop card will see the light of day (and I mean FULL DX10 card, not some "partial" card like nVidias next one), and even then, how many games do you think will use it exclusively? None. Any game that is released between now, and even a few months after Vista will be built on DX9, cuz only a fool will build a game for DX10 only. Some may support some functions of DX10, like EVE Online and COH, but only a fool would program for DX10 exclusively when the majority of customers won't even have a DX10 card, let alone Vista in their machines when either are released. Like I said, it'd be financial suicide. Developers are not going to wait for Vista to come out. They will program their games to support the widest possible market available to them, and right now that will be customers that have a DX9 graphics card. That way they can sell their games to those that have a DX9 supported OS, for those that will buy Vista or for those that will have Vista when they release their game since it supports DX9 anyways.

So guys, please stop with this "I'd wait until a DX10 card comes out", or "Wait until Vista comes out" advice UNLESS you can explain why the F#@% you "recommend" someone should wait months for either of those 2 things to come out. What you are suggesting is that they wait months to buy a DX10 card, more for a laptop gaming card that supports DX10, more waiting for Vista, and even more months to run a game that uses DX10 to it's fullest all while missing out on everything a new computer or component has to offer them right now, and for months to come. I, for one, would really love to hear the reasoning behind such "advice".

[niceguyrichy]

haha

I completely agree, same reason the term "future proof" should be banned

this should maybe go in the fwz, but lets see what kind of response it gets first.

[digerati]

Definitely a topic I wasn't expecting to see at 1:30am.

Feel like slapping some people yes?

[Sandok]

You gave an example of COH and EVE... Just for that, I'd tell someone to wait. Crysis is coming out the end of the year and supports EXTRA eye candy with DX10. I love eye candy.

[Tipstaff]

Originally Posted by niceguyrichy

this should maybe go in the fwz, but lets see what kind of response it gets first.

Ooooh.. I can see it now. Most rebuttles would be childish 4 letter retorts that take less brains to come up with than it does to upchuck a can of spam. That'd be a very constructive discussion, to say the least. Not.

Hopefully this topic stays here, so we can actually discuss it. That way we'd all get a chance to see exactly how much some peoples "advice" is actually worth, and which ones to avoid.

Originally Posted by Sandok

You gave an example of COH and EVE... Just for that, I'd tell someone to wait. Crysis is coming out the end of the year and supports EXTRA eye candy with DX10. I love eye candy.

Thing is that even with Crysis coming out at the end of the year Vista won't be out until NEXT year. And, going by the "6 month" timeline graphics card makers go by we won't see a full DX10 card until February or March of 2007. That's a long time to wait, and that's why I can't understand some peoples advice to do just that.

[Erroneus]

I would wait, thats for sure and why?

I would fell assraped if my almost new expensive GFX couldn't deliver the same IQ in DX10 games (eg. the new farcry game) as a DX10 card could. If I'm going to pay alot of money for a card, i dont want to see it not being able to support some features in 4-5 months.

If vista and DX10 cards where 12 months away, sure i would properly upgrade and if you have a really slowass gfx now, sure go ahead, go get a DX9 card, I wouldn't go buy two 7950GX2 though.

[Drakon]

Do you need a hug, Tipstaff? Or perhaps you'll like some negative rep instead? God knows I've got to fulfill my new role around here

[Sandok]

Originally Posted by Tipstaff

Thing is that even with Crysis coming out at the end of the year Vista won't be out until NEXT year. And, going by the "6 month" timeline graphics card makers go by we won't see a full DX10 card until February or March of 2007. That's a long time to wait, and that's why I can't understand some peoples advice to do just that.

Okay, Vista is still scheduled for January? That's 4 months to go... And ATI's first FULL DX10 card and NVIDIA's are both coming out in october or november. So 2 months max? That's still far from your 6 month timeline. And if you wait, you won't have to update in 6 months anyways... Patience is a virtue mate

[niceguyrichy]

Originally Posted by Tipstaff

Ooooh.. I can see it now. Most rebuttles would be childish 4 letter retorts that take less brains to come up with than it does to upchuck a can of spam. That'd be a very constructive discussion, to say the least. Not.

just saying that it's a bit of a rant mate, no offence meant

I'll have hug Drakon..

[Zardon]

just buy a 360 until then, i havent played a PC game in months cause there is damn all out for it.

[Falstaff]

wow...tipstaff is in rare form...LOL

[Shaga]

I have been changing my graphic card every other year up until now. I'm not upgrading anytime soon I quess but I'd rather choose card that most definetly runs(not with 100fps perhaps but runs) games released after a year or so.

I have so painful memories of trying to play thief3 with geforce4mx which didn't have pixel shader 1.1.

[Drakon]

Originally Posted by niceguyrichy

I'll have hug Drakon..

Wouldn't you like to have some negative rep instead? I've got to fill my "hater" quota by the end of the week, so I've got lots of bad rep to give out

Originally Posted by Falstaff

wow...tipstaff is in rare form...LOL

Must be the full moon, Jeff

[Neshi]

I dont think you need to rely that much on advice given. Like the word says, its advice.. you dont have to follow it. When you personally think its better to wait and everybody else says you need to upgrade, just listen to yourself and your wallet. But i think everybody with a little bit of common sense and the knowlegde dx10 and vista are not a long way from here, you need to decise for yourself if upgrading at this point is a good idea or not. even if you stay with dx9, my guess is that the dx9 card will drop a bit in price when thos dx10 card eventually get on the market.

and time goes faster then you think (and most times then you want). when i bought my system it was like 5 months till conroe came out. I regret buying my 3800+ for the double price of what it is now..

[CDsDontBurn]

if i could upgrade right now, i'd do it. ya, my x800xt pe is still a decent card, but i'd like to play my games w/max eye candy as well as having high FPS. my x800 isn't cutting it anymore for alot of these newer games.

then when vista/dx10 comes out, i'd do one of two things: 1: flip the card i would have bought now for to make up some of the difference in whatever dx10 card i would be getting. 2: give whatever card i'd get now to my sister and upgrade her rig as well as mine (though, mine would still be the better one )

[Al_Vampyre]

IMHO the advice is good as stands, yeah you won't see DX10 games in the next six months or so but my understanding is that the DX10 cards will run DX9 games significantly better than the current cards, and when the DX10 games come out you'll be prepared.

Take this from someone who bought a 9700Pro the minute they came out and was lambasted by all and sundry for buying a DX9 card when there were no games for it, they point the detractors didn't notice was that not only was the 9700Pro the first DX9 card, it was also the fastest (by a large margin) DX8 card of its time.

OK, yes, I paid the price (literally) for being an early adopter but that card was still in my main machine and keeping me happy until about 9 months ago so that card satisfied my requirements for 3 years!!

In the PC arena thats as about as 'future proof' as it gets!!

[Necrosis]

When I see folks asking these questions I just tell them to not spend much money on the video card. The rest of the hardware out there is fine, and the quad cores are going to be very expensive either way.

[OmegaRED]

I disagree, if you own a current high end graphics card and want to upgrade to the latest and greatest it is better to wait for the next gen DX10 cards to come out and by extension, Vista. This is sound advice because these people already have a top graphics card and can play any DX9 title with ease but when DX10 comes out and Crysis is released some people will want to know why the expensive card they recently bought can't even play at the best quality.

[mike2h]

Originally Posted by Falstaff

Sweet child in time you'll see the line - The line that's drawn between the good and the bad
See the blind man shooting at the world - Bullets flying taking toll
If you've been bad, Lord I bet you have - And you've been hit by flying lead
You'd better close your eyes and bow your head - And wait for the ricochet

OT - love your sig. think the 'live' vers is best.

[Dyre Straits]

Tipstaff,

Are you perhaps in the hardware selling business?

In all honesty, my current system, although a little sluggish in some games, still provides a great deal of satisfaction for me.

I think the advice to wait depends entirely on just how old a person's current system is, and just how much they may have to spend to get a system that performs to suit them.

When you also take into account that when Vista IS released, it will come already installed. If a person buys another computer now, they'll end up also having to pay extra for Vista in order to upgrade. (Although, some vendors are saying that around the Holidays they may include a voucher for Vista with the system. Still no guarantees at this moment.)

So, the advice to wait is really good, sound advice unless someone has money to burn..which I don't. My own practice has been to upgrade about every three years and/or do incremental upgrades e.g. video cards and memory. So, if I wait another 4 - 6 months I can then get a system that will be good for another 2 -3 years rather than put money out now and want to do it again in 4 months. That's why I'm waiting.

The only other really, really good reason for buying now is if the system has gone bad. My own daughter is in that boat. I'm getting with her to get her a new motherboard, CPU, memory, etc. because her motherboard went bad with those bulging capacitors. BUT, she won't be buying a top of the line system, either.

So, if you see me tell someone to wait, it's for a good reason.

[dsdsdk]

I'm with errorneus...

We're gonna be stuck with dx10 for at least 2 years, so if you were to upgrade now, i'd think twice before getting a dx9 card. Once dx10 has been released i wont utter the word "Wait" for approx 2 years (till dx11). (promise)

I've had 4 different dx9 cards, and now the time has come to wait for dx10...

[mainman]

Originally Posted by Zardon

just buy a 360 until then, i havent played a PC game in months cause there is damn all out for it.

yeah what he said.

[SFOSOK]

Truthfully I do see the point in waiting. I'm not goin to upgrade my system every couple of months. I'd rather upgrade it every time there is a big change in technology. Around here its not easy to sell your computer just because you want the latest and greatest.

Its very much worth it to keep what I have for another year until DX10 is stabilized and vista released. Also Its not like I'm goin to be able to use a computer with all the training I'm goin to have to do. By the time I'm done with all of it everything should be pretty well established.

[Tipstaff]

Sorry guys. It wasn't that I was angry or pissed off at anyone in particular, just that it was bugging me to see people giving such advice, and not backing it up with anything. Since posting this morning I've seen more people listing the pros and cons of waiting for DX10 cards than I've seen in quite awhile. That is what I wanted to see, and it was the main reason I started the thread to begin with. I guess I could have put it differently, but hell, it got the ball rolling, right?

[Dyre Straits]

I just picked up the latest (available to me) copy of PC Format magazine. It's the August issue and, on Page 11 is a very compelling reason for waiting:

DirectX 10 will be a Vista-only app. That's right! It will NOT be backwards compatible with XP of any version. That is, unless somehow someone makes it so.

Here's a snippet:

"'[DX 10] will require very different driver architecture, and that might be one reason why it is Vista-only, as introducing new architecture for XP may be quite difficult,' says Ondrej Spanel, Lead programmer at BIS (the Operation Flashpoint)."


So, even if one does grab a DX10 card prior to the release of Vista, it won't work as expected under XP.

I'm going to do more reading on this to see if even the cards themselves will work at all under XP. Or, does someone already know for sure?

[dj_stick]

the DX10 API might not work in XP - but DX9 drivers still should

[mike2h]

Originally Posted by Dyre Straits

I just picked up the latest (available to me) copy of PC Format magazine. It's the August issue and, on Page 11 is a very compelling reason for waiting:

DirectX 10 will be a Vista-only app. That's right! It will NOT be backwards compatible with XP of any version. That is, unless somehow someone makes it so.

Here's a snippet:

"'[DX 10] will require very different driver architecture, and that might be one reason why it is Vista-only, as introducing new architecture for XP may be quite difficult,' says Ondrej Spanel, Lead programmer at BIS (the Operation Flashpoint)."


So, even if one does grab a DX10 card prior to the release of Vista, it won't work as expected under XP.

I'm going to do more reading on this to see if even the cards themselves will work at all under XP. Or, does someone already know for sure?

beem hearing this for awhile now, & if true, it is really irritating. they(ms) are going to try & force us into buying vista? i dont think so. i could see them not setting something up initially, but there is now ay the majority of users sre gpoing to mas migrate to vista intially or even in the 1st 2 years. hell, xp really only got going a couple of years ago.
while dx10 cards will be backwards compatible, i dont think ati & nv are going to be thrilled about having their market for these cards limited like that.
as far as buying vista, me & most people i know arent going anywhere near it till sp1 comes out. wich imo is the smart move.

[LuCifer]

Man I completely agree with you Tipstaff.. I have friends building PCs taliknig about.. "oh im not getting the good stuff because im watiing till Dx10 comes out so im buying a nvidia 5700 for now till DX10 and vista comes out.." and im all like wtf is that?? makes no goddamn sense.. but I dont know.. and hell yeah dont get me wrong I loves me some eye candy too!! but yeah hear the same dumb stuff from my friends Tipstaff and I agree with you man

[Erroneus]

As with a lot of things, it depends on what situation you are in and what hardware you allready got.

[Judas]

Only thing i recommend to people buying machines is that to keep in mind that Vista is around the corner and to try and build a machine that'll make it a smooth transition to vista.

Every machine i've built within the last year have and will be fully vista compliant as far as things have gone.

The only thing that kinda bites is that you buy/pay for a full copy of windows XP Pro or home and then months later have to splurge for the full vista eddition.

As for the DirectX 10 stuff, as far as i understand.. yes it's all true, to use a DX10 video card under anything other then vista, will results in ONLY DirectX9 stuff being available to it. DX10 cards will require vista to run at it's fullest features.

Is this a problem? Hell no, i don't know why anyone would complain?... It's not different then crying bloody murder over your windows 3.1 box not being able to run those initial DirectX games or windows 95 made games. Or complaining that your built for windows xp games not running on windows 95/98. Or so forth and so on.

It's been a long 5-6 years with Windows XP with little to no major changes in the windows eviroment, we've seen very little disturbances. Frankly i think Vista will definitely drive up some inovative ideas, making some lacky companies finally do there job and make a decent set of drivers (creative? )