[BiGBrOwNPimpsta]

man video cards are getting far too expensive. and with sli and crossfire makes it even more so for top of the line performance. i bought this 9700 pro for 500cdn and that was way too much. this generation of ati cards perform well, but nothing that was a huge revolution and ps 3.0 isnt widely used yet. after hearing the 7800gtx will be $649 usd, im scared now.

shouldn't video card manufacturers lower the cost of their cards?

[Geminiwave]

sure they should, but its all about profit margins.

plus theres the law of diminishing returns that we cant forget about. for a time, innovation and faster speeds will get easier and easier to attain until they reach a peak...then it will be harder and harder to attain.

so it costs more to gain more headroom.

then theres increased competition in the low end(x300, 6200, Intel extreme) field where people have to cut their costs more and more and more and more, but maintain good enough profits to get people to buy stock in their company so that they have enough money to develop the fastest card which will get more people to invest in them which will give them more money to build faster cards which will get more people to invest in them and ON AND ON AND ON! its a vicious cycle with so many little things shooting off from it(variables and such)

I mean honestly it sucks. Neither nVidia nor ATI can be particlarly kind in this or else they'll lose footing and all will be lost. They're both basically clawing around for tiny slivers of market share. its discusting.

You wonder why the smaller companies dont make it. They dont have the capital to make an awesome card to get the stockholders behind them. Plus if the stockholders arent behind them and they dont have the huge profit margins from the high end, they cant get the low end market because they have to make profits SOMEWHERE.

Business discusts me. The more im studying for lawschool the more I find that the politics that go into Multi-national corporations discust me.

anywho. Back on topic.

I remember paying about $100 for the Voodoo 3 2000 when it was considered nearly top of the line. $100 was big time cash for me back then. Then I pay $200 for a card thats considered midrange garbage(9800SE. course I upgraded it to Pro) Now I'm looking into spending $300 or so on another midranged card. This isnt inflation people...and these prices are actually CAUSED by the competition we so love. Competition in the graphics market doesnt make for lower prices because the larger price says to the elitists "WOW! THIS CARD MUST BE BETTER!"

durrr...yeah anyway im kinda in a bad mood. heh.

[dj_stick]

Originally Posted by Geminiwave

durrr...yeah anyway im kinda in a bad mood. heh.

well you've made some pretty good points there

[Son_of_Thunder]

I was really bummed when I got my high range system. I mean, yah, it was awesome to have a system that could play any game I threw at it, but if it didn't play it at 100+ fps I wasn't satisfied.

I kind of regret selling my old system, it COULD play anything I threw at it, just not as well. Those guys who just got a voodoo5 to run doom3 made me feel sad inside. They have a voodoo5 running doom3 and I wasn't satisfied with a 9550XT that could run CS:S at 1280x1024 w/ 4xaf at 40fps. And I'm not happy with my x850xt that can run it at that same res w/ 16xAF and 6xAA at an 85 fps minimum.

I'm seriously considering selling off this processor and video card and going cheaper, like to the x700/amd64 3000+ range. I mean right now I have about 10 bucks in my bank account, and I have a car insurance payment of 263 bucks and a rent payment of 175 bucks both due at the end of the month. I shouldn't have spent nearly 1400 on a new system.

[Falstaff]

I think its all about M O N E Y.....
but then...we will pay what the market will bear right...or is it the other way around...LOL

[Geminiwave]

Originally Posted by dj_stick

well you've made some pretty good points there

thanks DJ. I tried to make it work out.

And Jeff, you got a good point. We ARE paying what the market'll bear.

Actually if you think about it, the prices are perfect. They are meeting supply and demand at the perfect level(and then of course price tapping the hell out of the lower segments)

Basically theres a certain demand for that graphics card...and if you dont have enough supply to meet the demand, you simply raise the price until the quantity demanded meets what the company can supply. In a way its to keep people from mobbing stores for the precious few X850s in the world. Remember when the X800PE came out? And people were reselling them for like $1000 on ebay and GETTING IT?! well thats why. Thats what the market could bear.

unfortunately the low end graphics cards of today will basically cost as much to TWICE as much as the high end cards of yesteryear. That'll happen for quite some time. We will start seeing graphics cards go for $500 as the lowend in about 5 years I'd guess. $300 at the very least.

Then again the market will be able to bear that.

I suppose if you really want costs to be cut, you could go buy Volari cards. They're quite cheap, and buying from that company would show nVidia and ATI that you hate the current prices.

Of course dont expect as many insanely wonderful innovations while this is happening. That money we spend on them isnt going into anyone's pockets. Its encouraging people to invest which breeds MORE money which employs MORE people to innovate MORE. Were nVidia a monopoly(or ATI for that matter) it would be a different story. They are in competition though so innovation matters quite a bit.

[The_Neon_Cowboy]

Wow i'm the only one to answer "no"? LOL

Guys need to open those eyes a little wider and relise they cost more becouse they cost
more to make, develope and support, Parts costs, labor costs, etc.... plus they have to pull a profit or they will quickly die...

they can makes slower, lower quailty, lower end cards but you don't want that do you? no!
you surely wouldn't buy them....

So you want the latest and greatest fastest and highest quailty, best support, great warrenties and you don't want to pay for it... to "eat your cake and have it too" wich you can not do

That like me saying make this table that costs $389 to build and sell it to me for $389 or less
you'd filp me the bird and walk off.... you'd want / need to make a profit so does everyone along the line with thier hand out...

Video card mfgs basically design the cards and drivers. The core of the cards are made someone else in a fab. the parts that make up the card come from various mfg. Then the card is assembled by drumroll some one else... it's the nature of things and it's not going to chage anytime soon...

[Ubergrendle]

Example 1: motherboard, cpu, memory, sound, powersupply, harddisk, dvd-rom - $500.

Example 2: 'N -1' generation video card: $500.

Something ain't right. :/

[Zelig]

They're too much for me to pay, but theoretically, I think they're fine.

As long as I'm able to get more for my money than in the past, I'm happy. (More = faster video card relative to old cards, not relative to current top of the line cards)

[yoda133113]

Actually Neon is right, if we quit demanding so much and paying for it then things would change, but our society is willing to pay for all this, so the prices won't drop.
I personally think that we need to force them (through sales) to stop releasing a new generation every 6 months, it too quick IMO, instead of small jumps every generation, release half as many generations, and make double the jumps in power, etc. The savings in marketing and developing half as many cards would drop down to the consumer (us) saving us money, while still getting the companies money, but people are willing to buy a neww card everytime ATI/Nvidia says they have a new one, so the prices stay high.

[Geminiwave]

ubergrendel brings up a good point.

Where are the mobo makers in this?! When intel made their move to make better processors without pins (supposedly) you know what they did?! THEY MADE THE MOBO MANUFACTURERS MAKE THE PINS! Asus flipped and said that it would severely hurt their income because the pins are one of the most common things to get damaged. And its TRUE! There are so many motherboard manufacturers out there that they are each clawing for a tiny piece of profit. Motherboards are SURELY more expensive to make than a graphics card.

Then again we arent really addressing driver writing which is more complicated for graphics cards.

Still...it seems to me that motherboards should get a bigger piece of the pie than they're getting right now.

btw Neon, we both brought up basically the same points. I just think that something should be done about it. The cost IS skyrocketing and something should be done to keep things from spiraling out of control. The thing is that everyone is doing EXACTLY what should be done to keep the cost up. EVeryone keeps paying whatever the cost to get ahold of these cards.

[riles9262]

Of course they are too expensive, however like neon said, they cost a hell of a lot for the graphic card companies to produce, mostly for labor and r&d. Personally I think that the product life cycles will slow over time; eventually the slimmer sales of the high end stuff will not be able to make up for the cost of producing it, as it will only get tougher to come up with new features and keep the performance climbing.

[YAYitsAndrew]

Originally Posted by Ubergrendle

Example 1: motherboard, cpu, memory, sound, powersupply, harddisk, dvd-rom - $500.

Example 2: 'N -1' generation video card: $500.

Something ain't right. :/

I voted no, but I'll use your argument to prove the opposite point.

Example 1: 'N -1' computer system consisting of motherboard, cpu, memory, sound, powersupply, harddisk, dvd-rom - $500 (come on, 500 dollars doesn't build a top of the line gaming system, it builds mom's spreadsheet and internet machine)

Example 2: 'N -1' generation video card: $300 (just correcting your price; see the xy00 line of ati cards where y<8)

Example 3: 'N' generation video card consisting of a high powered gpu, high powered memory, and a lifetime of free almost monthly driver updates written by a team of highly talented and specialized people: $500

Sure it'd be great if cards were cheaper, but wouldn't it also be great if cars were cheaper? And houses? And food, and video games, and music? It'd be great if everything was free. Let's start topics complaining about why everything isn't free. People need to make a profit.

Let's not forget that we all yearn for bleeding edge graphics in all the latest games. Counter strike source is playable at 800x600 with AA and AF off.

[Lowfat]

Well i guess an FX-55 is too expensive, good ram is too expensive, and hell a good case is too expensive too.



You aren't complaining about the prices of these? why because chances are you don't have the most expensive cpu, case, etc.

Just because the highest model cards are out of your pricerange, doesn't make it too expensive for others who want that absolute best stuff.

[Lowfat]

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

I voted no, but I'll use your argument to prove the opposite point.

Example 1: 'N -1' computer system consisting of motherboard, cpu, memory, sound, powersupply, harddisk, dvd-rom - $500 (come on, 500 dollars doesn't build a top of the line gaming system, it builds mom's spreadsheet and internet machine)

Example 2: 'N -1' generation video card: $300 (just correcting your price; see the xy00 line of ati cards where y<8)

Example 3: 'N' generation video card consisting of a high powered gpu, high powered memory, and a lifetime of free almost monthly driver updates: $500

Sure it'd be great if cards were cheaper, but wouldn't it also be great if cars were cheaper? And houses? And food, and video games, and music? It'd be great if everything was free. Let's start topics complaining about why everything isn't free. People need to make a profit.

Let's not forget that we all yearn for bleeding edge graphics in all the latest games. Counter strike source is playable at 800x600 with AA and AF off.

Thank You!. i couldn't of put it better myself

[OmegaRED]

Paid less for my X800 XL brand new than I did for my old 9700pro which was a year old. Wake up people, harddrives, cpu and boards are cheaper cause they sell massive amounts only hardcore gamers get the expensive cards hence the price.

[YAYitsAndrew]

It's worth mentioning also that a vote for no isn't a vote for "no don't do anything". I'd love if prices dropped as would everyone else. It's more a vote for "no, nothing can be done". They're not just tacking on 100 bucks because of a brand name recognition *cough sony* *cough alienware*. These cards cost what they cost because the demand is there and the technology is bleeding edge. Ask developers to optimize their games if you want more bang for your gpu buck. Realize though that you're really asking publishers to slow releases and lower their profit. The video card manufacturers aren't the greedy ones in this chain.

I should see a doctor.

[e v o]

I've never owned a high end card right when it came out. I bought a 9000 pro when 9800 pros were going for 400 bucks, i bought a 9800 pro when they were $200. Now finally i bought a X800XL for $260. So pretty much I've never spent over 300 bucks on a video card. I just can't justify it....yet. So for me graphics cards aren't too expensive, it's just compromising your needs with wants...

[OpusP.Gladiator]

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4040591


well not to promote any sites or anything but i recently came across this.... am thinking for crossfire considerations this could be a sweet card even tho it's only 128mg ram...
pair this up with their newer upcoming core maybe???

[BiGBrOwNPimpsta]

i understand that yes total costs are closer to total revenue lowering profit margins. and the technology is changing too fast to be honest. i mean it feels ridiculous to pay for something that is mainly for leisure and so small. a car we can understand, so many other factors involved like prestige, practicality, leisure also. quality is important to both things too, but cmon control the prices man.

[The_Neon_Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Ubergrendle

Example 1: motherboard, cpu, memory, sound, powersupply, harddisk, dvd-rom - $500.

Example 2: 'N -1' generation video card: $500.

Something ain't right. :/

you sure next generation cpu alone $300-1,200
next gen mother board $100-$300
memory about 100-200 for a gig
decent sound card about 50-200
power supplu $30 -100
dvdrom rw $50 -100

unless you talking a low env value wouldn't be ever buying a high end card
kinda system it costs...

windows next expect 2gb of ram, dual core cpu's 2.8 ghz and up,
g70/r520 and up as the "adverage" system

FYI i'd expect the cards to roll in at $600-$700 USD or with 512 DDR

[BiGBrOwNPimpsta]

and to top it off, its not even fashionable. if anything makes you more of a nerd if your budget mainly goes towards this for leisure.

its fun, but when your computer is better than your fashion sense, car and home its just lame. you got cash to spend on leisure so much, but not on something useful like a car.

[yoda133113]

Originally Posted by Geminiwave

Where are the mobo makers in this?! When intel made their move to make better processors without pins (supposedly) you know what they did?! THEY MADE THE MOBO MANUFACTURERS MAKE THE PINS! Asus flipped and said that it would severely hurt their income because the pins are one of the most common things to get damaged. And its TRUE! There are so many motherboard manufacturers out there that they are each clawing for a tiny piece of profit. Motherboards are SURELY more expensive to make than a graphics card.

Then again we arent really addressing driver writing which is more complicated for graphics cards.

Still...it seems to me that motherboards should get a bigger piece of the pie than they're getting right now.

Actually I disgree with motherboards should be more expensive, in addition to the fact that more of them are sold than video cards (intels integrated are on more than half of all boards so no video cards there, but still motherboards) so quantity alone drops the price some. But also a new age video card is more complicated, a mother boards has a CPU interface, Ram interface, chipset, and some other cheaper parts, a video card, has a GPU interface AND a GPU, Ram interface AND the RAM, chipset, and other cheaper parts. The motherboard, and video card are actually rather simple if you take them down to their simplest parts.

[Geminiwave]

Originally Posted by yoda133113

Actually I disgree with motherboards should be more expensive, in addition to the fact that more of them are sold than video cards (intels integrated are on more than half of all boards so no video cards there, but still motherboards) so quantity alone drops the price some. But also a new age video card is more complicated, a mother boards has a CPU interface, Ram interface, chipset, and some other cheaper parts, a video card, has a GPU interface AND a GPU, Ram interface AND the RAM, chipset, and other cheaper parts. The motherboard, and video card are actually rather simple if you take them down to their simplest parts.

umm...try telling ASUS that.

and yes you're right as a whole more mobos are sold...but the market has gotten to the point where its very difficult to differentiate between products. Indeed I think the only reason ASUS fairs better than others is because of its tech support and driver writers. The product in-and-of-itself is probably nearly identical to other manufacturers.

And seriously...a videocard is NOT more complicated than a motherboard. Writing the drivers might be, but at the end of the day the same video technology is integrated on motherboards. For every motherboard made, there MUST BE a graphics interface of some sort. Also, I got two words for you: NORTH BRIDGE! They arent just there for show. They are incredibly complicated micro processors.

anyway considering the profits made in the graphics card market compared to the profits made in the mobo market, my point simply was that it should be more evenly distributed.

Thankfully, most motherboard makers also make graphics cards these days.

[OmegaRED]

Thats a good point about the profits. I've never really thought about the markup on ATI/Nvidia cards because they take forever to drop in price (9800pros still go for more than x800xl) I assume that means they dont inflate the prices and we are getting what we pay for.

In comparison motherboard and cpu prices tend to fall rather drastically with each new generation.

[Yousaif]

PC prices as a whole have come way down. I can remember putting together a top shelf p2 450 system at the end of 97 (or was it beginning of 98?) that ran me well over $2,500 US in just parts. I don't mind shelling out $150-300 for a good vid card that will last me a couple years, but you won't ever see me going to the bleeding edge with $700+ 7800's coming out. X800XL is looking better and better.

[Lakevren]

Bought my X800XTPE just when it came out for around 500 USD.

Few weeks later, I found out it inflated like hell to around 700 USD due to the lack of supply.

Was almost tempted to sell it. But I was wondering "Can't substitute this for anything else..." Well... at least ATI-wise.

[daedal]

I just wait until stuff goes on sale. I grabbed my X850XT for less than 600$ CDN w/taxes when it went on sale at Future Shop and had 100$ off.

[Ubergrendle]

Sorry guys I don't buy the argument that my price points are out of whack. Yes if you buy bleeding-edge, absolutely the latest CPU release you will pay top dollar. However a 'decent' home gaming rig (and I'm not talking about internet/work processing station) does not require bleeding edge.

Prices (CAD $) taken from www.canadacomputers.com

cpu: 939 3200+ ($250) -- I could save $50 here and go w/ a 3000+
memory: Corsair value select DDR400, 2x512 ($119)
motherboard: Asus A8V Deluxe ($113)
case + ps: $50 + $75 ($125)
hd: 160gb WD Sata2 ($120)
dvd-rom: LG dual-layer burner ($60)

Okay, so $500 was a bit under, but not by much and this is Canadian $ remember. So for roughly $750 I can get a system that while not uber can run ANY program around today at a high level of performance... this system is better than any branded-box you can buy from a major reseller (Dell, HP, IBM, etc) and should have lots of future life.

An ATI 800XL is $400 for AGP, more than 50% of the computer's total worth...the 850 line is the current top of the line, with FUDOs less than 6 months away (supposedly). I am happy to see that 9800pros are finally down to about $200 OEM, last i checked a few months ago they were $300. So depending upon how you interpret "N-1" a 9800 pro might fit.

Maybe its a mental block, but I have a hard time buying any computer part that costs more than the processor. If this was a dedicated 3d workstation i could understand a specialised card, but for standard gaming I think ATI and NVidia get away with murder for how much they charge.

[YAYitsAndrew]

I said the three things you should consider when buying a video card before. It's a cpu, memory, and guaranteed frequent driver updates. If you want to add more, it's also a fast moving market so you can't expect to see the design cement and be mass produced cheaply. Seriously, how do you value the driver service they provide? Would you be happy if they released drivers a couple times a year like most other hardware manufacturers? What if you had one of the games ati/nvidia frequently patches to fix and optimize?

As for your dedicated 3d workstation, your gaming machine isn't far off. That one card is doing a monsterload of work when you play a game. If your cpu was doing those fp calculations games wouldn't look half as good as they do now.

And for final proof that they aren't inflating prices, it's a competitive market. ATI and Nvidia aren't price competing at any large scale (just producing budget cards) which means that they've agreed to hold the market where it's at because they need the money for research, drivers, whatever.

It feels like you're wrongly blaming the card manufacturers; they aren't the ones dictating the direction of the market. They simply provide the service needed to keep up with the direction. Things like our desire for realism and 3dmark benchmarks are what raise the bar every year. I'm sure ATI would love to create a card that they know would be strong selling for a couple years so they could produce it in larger quantity and sell them cheaper.