WinFX Becomes .NET Framework 3.0

**MIG-31** · Jun 12, 2006, 06:44 PM

Read More/Source: Betanews
_______________
Following through on plans reported during PDC 2005 last September, Microsoft at TechEd 2006 in Boston officially renamed WinFX to .NET Framework 3.0. The next-generation programming model extends version 2.0 with Vista-specific additions.

"The .NET Framework has always been at the core of WinFX, but the WinFX brand didn’t convey this," explained Soma Somasegar, corporate vice president of Microsoft's Developer Division. ".NET Framework 3.0 aptly identifies the technology for exactly what it is – the next version of our developer framework."

ChrisW · Jun 12, 2006, 08:36 PM

And you guys wonder why Vista is so slow. Microsoft takes computer programming backwards to a bloated high-level language we spent so many years moving away from.

YAYitsAndrew · Jun 12, 2006, 11:23 PM

Hey look it's someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. First .NET isn't a programming language it's a platform. Languages like (Managed) C++, C#, VB, and ASP all target .NET and compile to an intermediate language.

Another program that compiles to an intermediate language is Java. In recent years, it's been shown that java and .net are equivalent in speed to c++. In addition, they have garbage collection and non-ambiguous language features that make them a lot easier to program in; they also have strong support for object oriented programming and interfaces.

With all that said, companies are using .NET to make new programs. I doubt you can visit an ASP website that doesn't use .NET. These languages aren't bloated; they are feature rich. They aren't something we've been moving away from, they are something that we should be moving toward. .NET is in my eyes microsoft's greatest achievement. It is the one product of theirs that I feel is perfect.

ChrisW · Jun 12, 2006, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

Hey look it's someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. First .NET isn't a programming language it's a platform. Languages like (Managed) C++, C#, VB, and ASP all target .NET and compile to an intermediate language.

Another program that compiles to an intermediate language is Java. In recent years, it's been shown that java and .net are equivalent in speed to c++. In addition, they have garbage collection and non-ambiguous language features that make them a lot easier to program in; they also have strong support for object oriented programming and interfaces.

With all that said, companies are using .NET to make new programs. I doubt you can visit an ASP website that doesn't use .NET. These languages aren't bloated; they are feature rich. They aren't something we've been moving away from, they are something that we should be moving toward. .NET is in my eyes microsoft's greatest achievement. It is the one product of theirs that I feel is perfect.

I never meant to imply that .NET was a language. Microsoft is pushing the move to high level languages though. Computers started off using bloated high-level languages, like BASIC. They were very slow but easy to program. Eventually, we moved to low level languages like C/Assembly. Now Microsoft is pushing the .NET framework (for lazy developers) and C# which is a large step in the wrong direction. Sure, developers love this since it makes their life easier, but at the cost to the end-user. This is not what programming is supposed to be about. The end-user should come first, not the developer. All of this just to compete with Java just does not make any sense.

Managed code is also a large step backwards. Sure, it makes the developer's life easier, but at the cost of system performance to the end-user. All of these extra background processes running and eating up your system resources so developers can be lazy and not manage memory or close their own handles.

There is a reason why developers are not writing games using managed code and taking advantage of the .NET framework, even though it has been available for years...the incredible performance hit. Microsoft's answer...force everyone to have to use it in Vista.

YAYitsAndrew · Jun 13, 2006, 12:35 AM

You can write games in c#. They're fast. Check out sdldotnet. I made one game for a project at www.clownloaf.com .

Your statements are largely contradictory to the general views of programmers and you do not back them up with any evidence which means one of two things.
1. you're a troll
2. you think c is more than a very portable low-level language

This is the last time I'll entertain your bait. Assembly has always been around; you can't get a lower level language than the instructions available on the cpu. Everything after that is an improvement, even C. There is nothing lazy about developers. Software size is growing. Developing large applications is very hard, and even harder using unmanaged languages like c++. Something else that has been growing, is processor speed, cache size, memory size. How about we use that added power to take care of some of the automatable tasks for us? Look, we get a garbage collected language like java, c#, vb.net, asp.net. We get the ability to write programs in multiple languages that all target the same intermediate language.

C# in my opinion is doing a better job than java right now. Java is quickly deteriorating with the addition of generics and auto boxing. You should SEE the gotchas just related to those features; very un-java. Of course C#'s secret is Anders Hejlsberg, the god behind delphi and c#

So, c# is not only microsoft's answer to java, it's a well designed awesome answer. Just try to make an app that looks native to windows with java. Now do it with c#. I bet you can't even tell the difference between an application written in c# and one written in mfc.

Your argument doesn't even matter with asp.net because the server is executing a lot of the code not your machine.

CDsDontBurn · Jun 13, 2006, 12:55 AM

andrew.....that game is rather addicting

. lol

YAYitsAndrew · Jun 13, 2006, 12:57 AM

Thanks. If it was more revolutionary I'd finish it up, get some real art, and put a price tag on it

~~Alien1~~ · Jun 13, 2006, 01:01 AM

Ohh not another .NET framework

ATI CCC or any future ATI control panel will support that right ??

CDsDontBurn · Jun 13, 2006, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

Thanks. If it was more revolutionary I'd finish it up, get some real art, and put a price tag on it

that would be awesome......hey, i could be one of your beta testers if you want me to be

ChrisW · Jun 13, 2006, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

You can write games in c#. They're fast. Check out sdldotnet. I made one game for a project at www.clownloaf.com .

Your statements are largely contradictory to the general views of programmers and you do not back them up with any evidence which means one of two things.
1. you're a troll
2. you think c is more than a very portable low-level language

This is the last time I'll entertain your bait. Assembly has always been around; you can't get a lower level language than the instructions available on the cpu. Everything after that is an improvement, even C. There is nothing lazy about developers. Software size is growing. Developing large applications is very hard, and even harder using unmanaged languages like c++. Something else that has been growing, is processor speed, cache size, memory size. How about we use that added power to take care of some of the automatable tasks for us? Look, we get a garbage collected language like java, c#, vb.net, asp.net. We get the ability to write programs in multiple languages that all target the same intermediate language.

C# in my opinion is doing a better job than java right now. Java is quickly deteriorating with the addition of generics and auto boxing. You should SEE the gotchas just related to those features; very un-java. Of course C#'s secret is Anders Hejlsberg, the god behind delphi and c#

So, c# is not only microsoft's answer to java, it's a well designed awesome answer. Just try to make an app that looks native to windows with java. Now do it with c#. I bet you can't even tell the difference between an application written in c# and one written in mfc.

Your argument doesn't even matter with asp.net because the server is executing a lot of the code not your machine.

Whatever. Actually, Assembly was not always around. Games were originally written in machine language before someone thought of Assembly. I should know, as I wrote them.

I said commercial game. Name one commercial game that uses the .NET framework or managed code. You might as well find one that uses other slow high-level languages like Visual Basic.

I fully understand the idea that processors are getting faster. Does that mean you should waste more of your processor in order to make it easier to write programs? If your game takes a 30% performance hit by using the .NET framework and managed code, is that good? No. Why is it more advanced to slow down your programs? The more of the processor that is devoted to running all the extra background tasks could have been devoted to allowing you to get more frames per second in your games.

YAYitsAndrew · Jun 13, 2006, 01:49 AM

Oh that explains it, you're experienced. It's hard to watch the new blood come in with their new-fangled technologies and have an easier time than you. That c# game I posted doesn't have amazing graphics but it still entertains and that's what games should do.

You never said commercial games; you're free to go back and edit your post if you would have liked to say that, though.

Maybe 3d games aren't mainstream in .NET yet, but it's doable and it's coming. You simply can't deny it. .NET is certainly popular in the indie scene. Here's a commercial 3d game written in .NET. Sure looks pretty!
http://arenawars.krawall.de/eng/screens.html

indies...
http://white-clouds.org/FlightSimula...ctGallery.aspx
http://abi.exdream.com/

ChrisW · Jun 13, 2006, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

Oh that explains it, you're experienced. It's hard to watch the new blood come in with their new-fangled technologies and have an easier time than you. That c# game I posted doesn't have amazing graphics but it still entertains and that's what games should do.

You never said commercial games; you're free to go back and edit your post if you would have liked to say that, though.

Maybe 3d games aren't mainstream in .NET yet, but it's doable and it's coming. You simply can't deny it. .NET is certainly popular in the indie scene. Here's a commercial 3d game written in .NET. Sure looks pretty!
http://arenawars.krawall.de/eng/screens.html

indies...
http://white-clouds.org/FlightSimula...ctGallery.aspx
http://abi.exdream.com/

Well, I thought I said commercial.

Yes, .NET games are comming, but not because developers had a choice. Given the choice, they would take the extra frames per second than suffer the performance hit. I'm afraid that Vista will force the performance hit on them. I haven't checked yet, but I would guess that DirectX 10 will only be available in the managed code version. Knowing that the performance hit will already be present, it would be dumb for them not to take advantage of the benefits of managed code.

Don't get me wrong. There is a use for these programming technologies. Small programs just do not really need the extra performance. Java is plenty fast enough to run old games or emulators.

Yes, I'm old and stubborn. Is .NET the future? Yes. Did Microsoft ask for my opinion? No.

YAYitsAndrew · Jun 13, 2006, 02:53 AM

I can't wait for the 360 to support .NET. The arcade is really appealing from an indie point of view.

CDsDontBurn · Jun 13, 2006, 05:44 AM

o.O a generation gap debate

.

these are always fun to watch

LeanWolf · Jun 13, 2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

I can't wait for the 360 to support .NET. The arcade is really appealing from an indie point of view.

You keep saying indie, I know the term but what the hell does it really mean anyway?

clicker666 · Jun 13, 2006, 06:54 PM

Independent.

Jun 12, 2006, 06:44 PM	#1
MIG-31 HardwareHeaven News Mod Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Nottingham,UK Posts: 56,847 Rep Power: 471 System Specs	WinFX Becomes .NET Framework 3.0 Read More/Source: Betanews _______________ Following through on plans reported during PDC 2005 last September, Microsoft at TechEd 2006 in Boston officially renamed WinFX to .NET Framework 3.0. The next-generation programming model extends version 2.0 with Vista-specific additions. "The .NET Framework has always been at the core of WinFX, but the WinFX brand didn’t convey this," explained Soma Somasegar, corporate vice president of Microsoft's Developer Division. ".NET Framework 3.0 aptly identifies the technology for exactly what it is – the next version of our developer framework." __________________ Please Post Your News Submissions Here

Jun 12, 2006, 11:23 PM	#3
YAYitsAndrew Anti-Piracy Poster Boy Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 2,605 Rep Power: 79 System Specs	Hey look it's someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. First .NET isn't a programming language it's a platform. Languages like (Managed) C++, C#, VB, and ASP all target .NET and compile to an intermediate language. Another program that compiles to an intermediate language is Java. In recent years, it's been shown that java and .net are equivalent in speed to c++. In addition, they have garbage collection and non-ambiguous language features that make them a lot easier to program in; they also have strong support for object oriented programming and interfaces. With all that said, companies are using .NET to make new programs. I doubt you can visit an ASP website that doesn't use .NET. These languages aren't bloated; they are feature rich. They aren't something we've been moving away from, they are something that we should be moving toward. .NET is in my eyes microsoft's greatest achievement. It is the one product of theirs that I feel is perfect. __________________ "It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters." - Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason! www.yayitsandrew.com

Jun 13, 2006, 12:35 AM	#5
YAYitsAndrew Anti-Piracy Poster Boy Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 2,605 Rep Power: 79 System Specs	You can write games in c#. They're fast. Check out sdldotnet. I made one game for a project at www.clownloaf.com . Your statements are largely contradictory to the general views of programmers and you do not back them up with any evidence which means one of two things. 1. you're a troll 2. you think c is more than a very portable low-level language This is the last time I'll entertain your bait. Assembly has always been around; you can't get a lower level language than the instructions available on the cpu. Everything after that is an improvement, even C. There is nothing lazy about developers. Software size is growing. Developing large applications is very hard, and even harder using unmanaged languages like c++. Something else that has been growing, is processor speed, cache size, memory size. How about we use that added power to take care of some of the automatable tasks for us? Look, we get a garbage collected language like java, c#, vb.net, asp.net. We get the ability to write programs in multiple languages that all target the same intermediate language. C# in my opinion is doing a better job than java right now. Java is quickly deteriorating with the addition of generics and auto boxing. You should SEE the gotchas just related to those features; very un-java. Of course C#'s secret is Anders Hejlsberg, the god behind delphi and c# So, c# is not only microsoft's answer to java, it's a well designed awesome answer. Just try to make an app that looks native to windows with java. Now do it with c#. I bet you can't even tell the difference between an application written in c# and one written in mfc. Your argument doesn't even matter with asp.net because the server is executing a lot of the code not your machine. __________________ "It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters." - Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason! www.yayitsandrew.com

Jun 13, 2006, 12:55 AM	#6
CDsDontBurn Lurking DriverHeaven Join Date: May 2003 Location: Southern California Posts: 22,795 Rep Power: 235 System Specs	andrew.....that game is rather addicting . lol __________________ Her First Day \| A year later

Jun 13, 2006, 12:57 AM	#7
YAYitsAndrew Anti-Piracy Poster Boy Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 2,605 Rep Power: 79 System Specs	Thanks. If it was more revolutionary I'd finish it up, get some real art, and put a price tag on it __________________ "It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters." - Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason! www.yayitsandrew.com

Jun 12, 2006, 08:36 PM	#2
ChrisW DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 332 Rep Power: 0	And you guys wonder why Vista is so slow. Microsoft takes computer programming backwards to a bloated high-level language we spent so many years moving away from.

Jun 13, 2006, 01:01 AM	#8
~~Alien1~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Europe Posts: 365 Rep Power: 0	Ohh not another .NET framework ATI CCC or any future ATI control panel will support that right ??

Jun 13, 2006, 01:49 AM	#11
YAYitsAndrew Anti-Piracy Poster Boy Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 2,605 Rep Power: 79 System Specs	Oh that explains it, you're experienced. It's hard to watch the new blood come in with their new-fangled technologies and have an easier time than you. That c# game I posted doesn't have amazing graphics but it still entertains and that's what games should do. You never said commercial games; you're free to go back and edit your post if you would have liked to say that, though. Maybe 3d games aren't mainstream in .NET yet, but it's doable and it's coming. You simply can't deny it. .NET is certainly popular in the indie scene. Here's a commercial 3d game written in .NET. Sure looks pretty! http://arenawars.krawall.de/eng/screens.html indies... http://white-clouds.org/FlightSimula...ctGallery.aspx http://abi.exdream.com/ __________________ "It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters." - Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason! www.yayitsandrew.com Last edited by YAYitsAndrew; Jun 13, 2006 at 01:59 AM.

Jun 13, 2006, 02:53 AM	#13
YAYitsAndrew Anti-Piracy Poster Boy Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 2,605 Rep Power: 79 System Specs	I can't wait for the 360 to support .NET. The arcade is really appealing from an indie point of view. __________________ "It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters." - Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason! www.yayitsandrew.com

Jun 13, 2006, 05:44 AM	#14
CDsDontBurn Lurking DriverHeaven Join Date: May 2003 Location: Southern California Posts: 22,795 Rep Power: 235 System Specs	o.O a generation gap debate . these are always fun to watch __________________ Her First Day \| A year later

Jun 13, 2006, 06:54 PM	#16
clicker666 DriverHeaven Addict Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Lower Sackville, Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 327 Rep Power: 0	Independent. __________________