Transformers HD DVD vs Upsampled DVD Comparison @ Firingsquad

**MIG-31** · Oct 16, 2007, 05:39 PM

Source: Firingsquad
_______________
Would it be hearsay to claim that with Transformers, Michael Bay has begun to challenge James Cameron’s Michael Jordan-like legacy of the 90's -- the man behind Terminator 2, one of the most popular action movies of all time, and Titanic, the highest grossing movie of all time?

BlueMak · Oct 16, 2007, 06:41 PM

It looks better, but I don't feel like investing in HD DVD or BR yet. I would hate to buy movies for a format that may not win this "war".

Judas · Oct 16, 2007, 07:24 PM

There appears to be multi drives in the works.. i don't think either format is going to win or lose.... we'll all lose a bit i think.. and have to pay for the multi drives to do what we need...

but i must admit.. the Transformers HD-DVD is utterly beautiful looking.... course upsampled to 1440p....

mike2h · Oct 16, 2007, 07:45 PM

good article.
as far as transformers goes, the movie was visually & acoustically stunning. whoever it was written for teens & younger & it shows in the basic lack of plot/storyline. while i probably wont add it to my collection, it is a fun movie.

calidan · Oct 16, 2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

the HD DVD format would not have allowed the same quality visual encode with a lossless audio track.

And they say that the capacity for HD DVD is good enough?

Quote:

most movie theaters are still showing movies in low-bitrate Dolby Digital AC-3.

Just because some movie theaters use low-bitrate Dolby Digital doesn't mean that people at home don't have something better. Why are they making excuses for a half-assed release? You know what's going to happen? They will re-release it in some super director-cut crap and make people buy it all over again just so they get the better audio track. That's what people should expect from a supporter of the defunct DIVX format. The only good thing I see is they used AVC instead of VC-1.

germanjulian · Oct 16, 2007, 08:58 PM

thank god for the mkv file format....

also whats the shelf life of blueray discs... 30 years then they degrade??

BlueMak · Oct 16, 2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by germanjulian

thank god for the mkv file format....

also whats the shelf life of blueray discs... 30 years then they degrade??

It is? What about HD-DVD and DVDs?

mike2h · Oct 16, 2007, 09:32 PM

nobody knows the true life expectancy of bd yet. though that is as good an informed guess as any.
like cd & dvd, longevity has several factors involved, manafacturing quality being the primary issue. storage & quality of player(s) are also part of equation.
given current tech & the fact that bd & hd dvd have all the experience of cd & dvd proccess behind them i would expect well maintaned bd/hddvd discs to last at least 30yrs - assuming the studios are using good to high quality discs.

Tipstaff · Oct 21, 2007, 07:16 AM

Damn.. I missed this article when it first got posted. Oh well.

I have to say that I'm in the opposite category here: I dislike this article A LOT. I mean, look at the source equipment they used: a PS3, an Xbox 360 with most likely an HD-DVD drive, and an HTPC. ?!? Where the hell is the real equipment, the equipment every pure blooded A/V person in their right mind would be watching a movie on? Forget that, how about the fact that they didn't even say what screenshots were from what sources. Did they use the PS3, the 360, or the HTPC for the upscaled DVD image? Guesses anyone?

This last week I had my friends kids over to watch Transformers on my Panasonic HD CRT, and was upscaling it to 1080i via HDMI from my Pioneer 490k (which doesn't use a very high end upscaling chip, btw), and it was to fun to watch, and looked pretty damn good. Now, while I agree that the HD-DVD screenshots look pretty damn sweet, and that the upscaled DVD I watched wasn't as sharp, it sure as hell didn't look anywhere close to the DVD screenies in that article. Not even bloody close.

I'm sorry, but this article holds very little weight with me. They look to boast knowledge on the subject, and they even spec out some pretty decent parts, but when it came to the source equipment they lost me. You do not compare high def sources with equipment that tries to be everything, or equipment where something is added onto it just so it reach a broader market by saying it supports it. You get the right equipment for the right job. If I was seriously going to jump into the HD-DVD market I'd buy a real HD-DVD player. The only time I'd buy the addon for the 360 was if I wanted to watch HD-DVD movies on the side, to waste time. I would not buy it to make it my primary player.

Speaking of which, I bet if you took screenshots coming from a real HD-DVD player, and compared it to the Xbox 360 HD-DVD shots the real player would kick it's ass all over the place. So, please, if you are going to do a comparison, do it again with the right equipment, and not this poor attempt at upscaling, or HD-DVD wannabe crap.

mike2h · Oct 21, 2007, 09:26 AM

a whole lot of people do not get the concept of low/mid/high grade electronics. drives me crazy. there is all sorts of peeps out there that expect to get the same performance from their budget/cheap peice of equipment - wether it is a a psu, mb, whatever type of tv, surround proc/receiver, speakers, car audio, whatever, that other people get from higher grade electronics. i did say grade not priced, though 98% of the time they go together.
wouldnt be so bad if most of these people wouldnt complain when they see/hear superior products or theirs crash & burn whith limited use, but a lot bitch & moan & wonder wtf. get a clue.
just to avoid a flame fest, i am 100% into buying what you see/hear appreciate. & what your budget within your priority of real life allows for you. i just have a hard time with some of the whiners. please do some research.

tipstaff, while i obviously agree with your general concept, i liked the post becuase imo they tried to be fair minded - no real preference for either format. that is something that is hard to come by.

Judas · Oct 21, 2007, 07:13 PM

It does drive me crazy that you can explain to someone why the same size a TV.. or the same device that can play back all the formats another one can..... are cheaper then others.. and if you state quality they turn around and say "well if it was poor quality, why would it be on the market" at which point i die a little.... because the reason it's on the market is because people that are so damn cheap keep a product on the market cause they keep freaking buying it. Quality doesn't sell, DEMAND sells....

IMO, though, the HD-DVD Version COMPLETELY blows the doors off the DVD version (after watching and comparing)..... You CAN'T compare an upsampled version to a true HD version... and the transformers hd-dvd is utterly amazing....

Tipstaff · Oct 22, 2007, 02:05 AM

I agree, with both you guys. It's just that it kills me to see comparisons like in that article. At first glance it seems to be a general, "this is what this looks like, and this is what this looks like, which would you rather buy?", but they never mention which was from what source equipment, that this might only be indicative of the equipment used in the article, and that different, more dedicate equipment may garner better results. It's misleading in its presentation, and thats really where my complaint is. If I didn't know better I would dump my whole DVD collection in a heart beat based on that article. But... I do know better, cuz I've seen better.

Honestly, they should expand the article to include dedicated player screenies. This is what HD-DVD looks like from the 360, this is what it looks like from a Toshiba HD-DVD player (say the cheapest like the HD-A3), this is what upscaled DVD looks like from a console/HTPC, and this is what it looks like from... well... they could use the Toshiba HD-A3 player for that too since it will upscale. If they did that I would give the article more merit.

mike2h · Oct 22, 2007, 02:12 AM

would be nice to see a unbiased comparison done similar to what you suggest tip. would like a similar thing for blueray to.

Judas · Oct 22, 2007, 08:25 AM

Wonder if Verdian3 would be able to manage this... Seeing as he's got both BR and HD players (xbox360 drive still, but all pushed through a computer anyways)...

Probably the best way to do things, as the ATI HD2xxx series appears to do a damn good job upsampling/converting standard DVDs quite well.... even my x1900's do an excellent job using Avivo

Tipstaff · Oct 22, 2007, 12:43 PM

I have a feeling that's what they used the HTPC for in the article. Just a guess though since they don't mention the particulars, however I remember an article they did about upsampling DVD a long time ago, and this was their preferred way of doing things in then.

Mind you, if that is what they did for the screen shots then this would explain things. If the software wasn't setup right for capturing, then that would explain why the DVD shots look like crap. However, why the HD-DVD shots look as they do, yet the DVD shots look like they do, that I can't understand.

BTW, it just dawned on me what those DVD shots look like: as if they were done via composite output. Seriously. There's no discerning edges, no color separation, and they're blurry. Even non upscaled images would look better than those if it were done via component.

Edit: sorry to go on about this. Don't know why it's peeved me off so much.

BlueMak · Oct 22, 2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tipstaff

I have a feeling that's what they used the HTPC for in the article. Just a guess though since they don't mention the particulars, however I remember an article they did about upsampling DVD a long time ago, and this was their preferred way of doing things in then.

Mind you, if that is what they did for the screen shots then this would explain things. If the software wasn't setup right for capturing, then that would explain why the DVD shots look like crap. However, why the HD-DVD shots look as they do, yet the DVD shots look like they do, that I can't understand.

BTW, it just dawned on me what those DVD shots look like: as if they were done via composite output. Seriously. There's no discerning edges, no color separation, and they're blurry. Even non upscaled images would look better than those if it were done via component.

Edit: sorry to go on about this. Don't know why it's peeved me off so much.

DVD FTW!!!

Oct 16, 2007, 05:39 PM	#1
MIG-31 HardwareHeaven News Mod Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Nottingham,UK Posts: 55,783 Rep Power: 444 System Specs	Transformers HD DVD vs Upsampled DVD Comparison @ Firingsquad Source: Firingsquad _______________ Would it be hearsay to claim that with Transformers, Michael Bay has begun to challenge James Cameron’s Michael Jordan-like legacy of the 90's -- the man behind Terminator 2, one of the most popular action movies of all time, and Titanic, the highest grossing movie of all time? __________________ Please Post Your News Submissions Here

Oct 16, 2007, 06:41 PM	#2
BlueMak HH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 13,248 Rep Power: 328 System Specs	It looks better, but I don't feel like investing in HD DVD or BR yet. I would hate to buy movies for a format that may not win this "war". __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*

Oct 16, 2007, 07:45 PM	#4
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 89 System Specs	good article. as far as transformers goes, the movie was visually & acoustically stunning. whoever it was written for teens & younger & it shows in the basic lack of plot/storyline. while i probably wont add it to my collection, it is a fun movie. __________________

Oct 16, 2007, 08:58 PM	#6
germanjulian Back in London Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,797 Rep Power: 0	thank god for the mkv file format.... also whats the shelf life of blueray discs... 30 years then they degrade?? __________________ /\|\ Asus P5W DH Deluxe, Intel C2D E6600, 2GB Corsair XMS2-6400C4 DDR2, E-VGA GeForce 7800 GT, Creative X-Fi Extreme Music, 500GB Seagate 7200.10 SATA, Lian Li PC-V1100 Aluminum Case Black, etc. http://germanjulian.com /\|\

Oct 16, 2007, 09:32 PM	#8
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 89 System Specs	nobody knows the true life expectancy of bd yet. though that is as good an informed guess as any. like cd & dvd, longevity has several factors involved, manafacturing quality being the primary issue. storage & quality of player(s) are also part of equation. given current tech & the fact that bd & hd dvd have all the experience of cd & dvd proccess behind them i would expect well maintaned bd/hddvd discs to last at least 30yrs - assuming the studios are using good to high quality discs. __________________

Oct 21, 2007, 07:16 AM	#9
Tipstaff HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Real capital of Canada: Torauna Posts: 6,660 Rep Power: 187 System Specs	Damn.. I missed this article when it first got posted. Oh well. I have to say that I'm in the opposite category here: I dislike this article A LOT. I mean, look at the source equipment they used: a PS3, an Xbox 360 with most likely an HD-DVD drive, and an HTPC. ?!? Where the hell is the real equipment, the equipment every pure blooded A/V person in their right mind would be watching a movie on? Forget that, how about the fact that they didn't even say what screenshots were from what sources. Did they use the PS3, the 360, or the HTPC for the upscaled DVD image? Guesses anyone? This last week I had my friends kids over to watch Transformers on my Panasonic HD CRT, and was upscaling it to 1080i via HDMI from my Pioneer 490k (which doesn't use a very high end upscaling chip, btw), and it was to fun to watch, and looked pretty damn good. Now, while I agree that the HD-DVD screenshots look pretty damn sweet, and that the upscaled DVD I watched wasn't as sharp, it sure as hell didn't look anywhere close to the DVD screenies in that article. Not even bloody close. I'm sorry, but this article holds very little weight with me. They look to boast knowledge on the subject, and they even spec out some pretty decent parts, but when it came to the source equipment they lost me. You do not compare high def sources with equipment that tries to be everything, or equipment where something is added onto it just so it reach a broader market by saying it supports it. You get the right equipment for the right job. If I was seriously going to jump into the HD-DVD market I'd buy a real HD-DVD player. The only time I'd buy the addon for the 360 was if I wanted to watch HD-DVD movies on the side, to waste time. I would not buy it to make it my primary player. Speaking of which, I bet if you took screenshots coming from a real HD-DVD player, and compared it to the Xbox 360 HD-DVD shots the real player would kick it's ass all over the place. So, please, if you are going to do a comparison, do it again with the right equipment, and not this poor attempt at upscaling, or HD-DVD wannabe crap. __________________ Portal: The Flash Version _________________________________ Brain: So, you sacked the cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker? Mr. Sackett: The second cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker I've sacked since the sixth sitting sheet slitter got sick.

Oct 21, 2007, 09:26 AM	#10
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 89 System Specs	a whole lot of people do not get the concept of low/mid/high grade electronics. drives me crazy. there is all sorts of peeps out there that expect to get the same performance from their budget/cheap peice of equipment - wether it is a a psu, mb, whatever type of tv, surround proc/receiver, speakers, car audio, whatever, that other people get from higher grade electronics. i did say grade not priced, though 98% of the time they go together. wouldnt be so bad if most of these people wouldnt complain when they see/hear superior products or theirs crash & burn whith limited use, but a lot bitch & moan & wonder wtf. get a clue. just to avoid a flame fest, i am 100% into buying what you see/hear appreciate. & what your budget within your priority of real life allows for you. i just have a hard time with some of the whiners. please do some research. tipstaff, while i obviously agree with your general concept, i liked the post becuase imo they tried to be fair minded - no real preference for either format. that is something that is hard to come by. __________________

Oct 22, 2007, 02:05 AM	#12
Tipstaff HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Real capital of Canada: Torauna Posts: 6,660 Rep Power: 187 System Specs	I agree, with both you guys. It's just that it kills me to see comparisons like in that article. At first glance it seems to be a general, "this is what this looks like, and this is what this looks like, which would you rather buy?", but they never mention which was from what source equipment, that this might only be indicative of the equipment used in the article, and that different, more dedicate equipment may garner better results. It's misleading in its presentation, and thats really where my complaint is. If I didn't know better I would dump my whole DVD collection in a heart beat based on that article. But... I do know better, cuz I've seen better. Honestly, they should expand the article to include dedicated player screenies. This is what HD-DVD looks like from the 360, this is what it looks like from a Toshiba HD-DVD player (say the cheapest like the HD-A3), this is what upscaled DVD looks like from a console/HTPC, and this is what it looks like from... well... they could use the Toshiba HD-A3 player for that too since it will upscale. If they did that I would give the article more merit. __________________ Portal: The Flash Version _________________________________ Brain: So, you sacked the cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker? Mr. Sackett: The second cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker I've sacked since the sixth sitting sheet slitter got sick.

Oct 22, 2007, 02:12 AM	#13
mike2h DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: norcal Posts: 6,483 Rep Power: 89 System Specs	would be nice to see a unbiased comparison done similar to what you suggest tip. would like a similar thing for blueray to. __________________

Oct 22, 2007, 12:43 PM	#15
Tipstaff HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Real capital of Canada: Torauna Posts: 6,660 Rep Power: 187 System Specs	I have a feeling that's what they used the HTPC for in the article. Just a guess though since they don't mention the particulars, however I remember an article they did about upsampling DVD a long time ago, and this was their preferred way of doing things in then. Mind you, if that is what they did for the screen shots then this would explain things. If the software wasn't setup right for capturing, then that would explain why the DVD shots look like crap. However, why the HD-DVD shots look as they do, yet the DVD shots look like they do, that I can't understand. BTW, it just dawned on me what those DVD shots look like: as if they were done via composite output. Seriously. There's no discerning edges, no color separation, and they're blurry. Even non upscaled images would look better than those if it were done via component. Edit: sorry to go on about this. Don't know why it's peeved me off so much. __________________ Portal: The Flash Version _________________________________ Brain: So, you sacked the cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker? Mr. Sackett: The second cocky khaki Kicky Sack sock plucker I've sacked since the sixth sitting sheet slitter got sick. Last edited by Tipstaff; Oct 22, 2007 at 12:49 PM.