Next-Gen DVDs: Advantage, Sony

calidan

Source: BusinessWeek
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It's a fight with more plot twists and intrigue than a Hollywood thriller. For two years now, rival camps have been battling over which new DVD format will prevail: Blu-ray, which is backed by Sony (SNE) and a consortium of 170 other companies, or HD DVD, which is being championed by Toshiba (TOSBF), Microsoft (MSFT), and others. Both technologies promise crisper video that looks better on the new generation of flat-panel, high-definition TVs. And the winner stands to control a lucrative new market worth billions. Each side has been competing to win the backing of the major movie studios. Only Warner Bros. (TWX), which currently uses both formats, is still playing hard to get.

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Steam Community :: ID :: calidan



"Don't try to be like Jackie. There is only one Jackie.... Study computers instead." - Jackie Chan

Necrosis

Figures typical Blu-Ray PR.

calidan

And would you be complaining if it was HD DVD PR? Really, I think the article is neutral.

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Steam Community :: ID :: calidan



"Don't try to be like Jackie. There is only one Jackie.... Study computers instead." - Jackie Chan

mike2h

i agree calidan. the article is just giving as an overview of were both 'camps' stand right now. just because the overall picture tends to slightly favor bd has nothing to do with bias in the article, but with plain old reality.
i have been saying this for months, i think bd will eventually win(whatever that means) format war not because they are superior - they arent, both formats give great pict & audio quality(the only thing that really matters imo), the rest is just choosing wich extras/bells & whistles you like - but because of the companies that are backing bd.
if bd camp can actually get a sub $300 player(i have no idea why you wouldnt buy the $399 ps3 at this point) out before xmas i think the end is in sight for hd dvd. assuming it is a quality player.
as i have also said many times, i just want this over one way or the other so we can start reaping the benefits of lower costs due to full industry support for whichever format.

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interspaced

Good post Mike. Also what I find perplexing is how many people take it so seriously to the points where they will do nothing but shout down anything said by the opposing side.

People who brought either an HD DVD player or a blu ray player know what they're getting into, the software brought will still be around after all this is over it won't be completely useless.

Now who wants an HD VMD player

mike2h

thx interspaced. & no more formats for at least 3 years please

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interspaced

Well i'm quite intrigued by holographic versatile disc that can store terabytes of data. Will be very useful in terms of putting entire libaries of human history onto one disc and will enhance education immensely. Not to mention in terms of film the picture can be shown uncompressed but I doubt you'll see too much progress beyond 1080p unless the majority of public like putting up with massive 100" screens. So I think we're good for now.

Necrosis

Coming from the biggest outspoken Blu-Ray supporter on this site would you if it were?

I find this article much like the anti-Vista articles. You throw in a bit of facts, and w/ just enough neutrality, then the personal opinion to tie it all together as a "bit of news".

Here is why I made my comment:

First quote is the standard typical regurgitation Blu-Ray PR. It's all the in the consumer's favor, HA more like Sony's profit margin. It's all about trying to push people to another format (Blu-Ray). If you like being herded like cattle, and believing all the hype then be my guest. All the Blu-Ray supporters stand in a circle, and clap one another on the back. Look at the comments at the bottom of the article. It's just about as bad as the PS3/Disney commercials on the HD channels every 10 minutes. I want a format that is going to last for 10 years or more. If Blu-Ray is so superior it would be supported by everyone, just like DVD was.

mike2h

i think you proved interspaced's point nec.
so since you obviously dont like bd & unlike me, care very much who wins. what makes your format(whatever it may be) choice so superior?
as i have pointed out many times(including above) no one can say one format is technolgically superior over the other. there is NO discernible visual or audible difference between the 2.
the only real difference that mattered is that you could pick up a hd dvd deck for considerably cheaper than a bd deck - though i would have some questions as to those units quality & robustness. just like ill question the new sub $300 bd unit until it shows its colors.
truthfully, for mainstream users & anybody that has kids/ might play games/needs some sort of multimedia setup i think it would be hard to go wrong with the $400 ps3.
i also dont get people that have to denigrate either product, makes no sense on any level. there are personal preferences you might/nmightt not like as far as the minor stuff related to bells & whistles goes(wich i personally have no use for from either side) but they both do exactly the same thing with pretty much the same result as far as their main function goes.
bty your comment 'just like dvd was' makes no sense whatsoever. dvd had no competition. & it still took years to get mainstream. how long do you think it will take us to get a fully supported format with the competition going.
wich is another reason your argument makes no sense, you say you want 1 long lasting format but you obviously have some sort of vested interest in bd not winning. you would think if your '1 format' was really true you would be more like me & want it done as soon as possible regardless of who wins.

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Zelig

Particularly because studios tend to use the same renders on both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

However, there's more technical stuff to it than that, I'm not particularly informed on the details, but there are some big ones such as Blu-Ray having more space, HD-DVD being cheaper, HD-DVD having more consumer friendly anti-piracy features. I'm sure you already know those, I'm just mentioning that audio/video quality isn't the whole picture.

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Judas

you can currently get an LG optical drive for a computer for under 300bucks which is capable of reading BOTH BR AND HD dvd's...

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Necrosis

I don't believe I have proved his/her comments in any sense what so ever. I simply stated I don't like biased new articles. There are quite a few other factual points in the article that favored Blu-Ray but weren't based off the author's own personal views. I've made it very clear in the past that my issue isn't Blu-Ray but w/ the company backing it. My supported format would in general have to be HD DVD. I have the 360 add-on, Toshiba HD-A3, & the LG GGC-H20L. 35 HD DVD titles, and 5 Blu-Ray. Thus whichever way it goes I'll be fine. Now I just would like to have a decent hardware Blu-Ray solution that isn't over rated/priced.

Just maybe the reason it took DVD so long to become mainstream is because there was no competition? We wouldn't have the players/movies at the current prices if not, the PS3 (hacked version) wouldn't be @ $399.00 as well. Of course the Wii & 360 have helped the PS3 price reduction too.

mike2h

you may say that your only issue is with sony, & if that is so, fine. however sony isnt even close t obeing the only company backing bd & that has nothing to do with your constant negative spin versus anything/anybody supporting bd.
you really dont get big business do you? the only thing that slowed down dvd was people getting used to the whole digital a/v concept. it was at a time when most people didnt have tvs & audio sytems that could show of the benefits of dvd. once the whole home theater concept started taking of the manafacturers were able to start rolling product.
while you have a similar problem now with the 'equipped to handle it' thing with hd, the concept of home theater is more mainstream & suitable hardware is readily available & cheaper. the biggest slowdown by far of a new format is the fn competition. & it will be slowed as long as there is more than one format. but that should be common sense.
anyway you have your hatred of sony for whatever reason, though that should have absolutely nothing to do with wether you like bd or not. & i have my opinon on wich one is going to win, but with a bottom line of not caring that much, just getting it done sooner than later... which is to every consumers benefit.
we are not going to agree. so 'nuff said.

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Necrosis

What you may perceive as a "negative" spin on Blu-Ray I see as an objective stance. For one I don't like Sony because of the companies ethics. Just look at the PR for the PS3, why would I want to support a company that says such things? How about the infamous root kit issue? If anything those other companies supporting BD is what made me think of giving it a chance. I think Sony's products are over rated/hyped/priced. If my opinion is as so why give them anymore money than I have to? For someone that had a Laser Disc player you have a poor memory of what technology was available. Last time I checked the resolution for DVD is 480 lines which hasn't changed in years. We had simulated multi-channel audio, w/ DVD it improved but still most people don't own HT setups. It isn't until the advent of HD that the true limitations of DVD were made apparent. The fact is still most people don't own HDTVs, this is one reason the Wii is doing so well. I imagine it's also the same reason Blu-Rays sales aren't as high as they could be. The majority of PS3's sold were previous PS2 users w/ SDTV's; pretty much pointless purchasing HD media in that case.

Mr cairo

just cut in with a quick question ...

why are Blu-Ray disks refered to as BD disks ?

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Mr cairo

Actually seeing that writtn down i figured Bluray Disk

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Veridian3

As i own both blu-ray and hd-dvd I think i'm reasonably neutral and i'd have to say i would like HD-DVD to become the major format... when using both on a PC the anti-piracy methods used by BD actually get in the way of watching movies. HD-DVD always works but since the beginning Blu-Ray has required constant firmware updates, software updates and even the region locking doesnt always work right... i guess the stand alone players are probably ok, but on PC when you buy a brand new disc you never know if you can just pop it in and watch or if you need to set aside 30mins in advance for configuration. Very annoying.

YAYitsAndrew

Sony's been trying to champion a new format for YEARS. I'm terrified if they actually get one, because they must have some amazing money making scheme attached to it that merits repeated attempts in the face of failure.

I'm much more likely to use HD-DVD because I don't trust sony with DRM, but I'm not buying either until one of them is dead. I think by the time it's decided they will both die. Either we'll regress back to DVDs which are still making most people happy or technology will have gone far enough for one format that defeats both bluray and HD DVD.

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In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason!

www.yayitsandrew.com

Asmoday

I seriosly doubt that things will regress back to DVD, since the HD TV's are about the only ones available atm. I mean here in Sweden it's near impossible to buy an old school CRT TV these days. Then there is always the possibilty that another format will pop up from nowhere taking over, but I doubt that too..

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temeteus82

Cross the lake we have a lot of those CRT TV's on sale now days... and most of those LCD TV's are not Full HD TV's. But anyway me thinks that BR is technically better, if memory serves me right it's all MPEG4? And HD-DVD is still MPEG2?

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Asmoday

Yeah you guys has always been a step behind us...




..j/k

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Veridian3

No, they mainly use newer codecs VC-1/H.264. Original HD-DVD's used the newer codec more whilst Blu-Ray used high bitrate Mpeg-2. Now both have identical codecs and bitrates...which makes having 2 formats a bit pointless. From memory, i think BD usually has a higher audio bitrate but thats down to the individual movie.

temeteus82

ok, thanks... I stand corrected then

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Veridian3

Also need to point out that just because the BD used Mpeg-2 doesnt mean it looked worse than hd-dvd. AvP for example used mpeg-2 on BD and the image quality at 1080p was excellent. Its all down to the person/people mastering the discs.... VC-1 wont save anyone from a rubbish transfer.

temeteus82

Yeah I've been doing some Video stuff so I do know few things about those too

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thunderclap

I do believe, however skewed the perspective may be, that BR is a better format. But that being said I also think that HD-DVD will ultimately win out. The reasons:

1.) The name. Today everyone knows what DVD's are. Most everyone also knows what HD stands for. Combine the two and you have a recognizable name. People like recognizing names. When it comes to technology it makes them feel smart, but it also makes them feel safe in the product.

2.) The price. While movies on BD or HD-DVD are around the same price the players are not. People like products that cost them less... especially in America. More people would be willing to pay $199 for an HD-DVD player over the $299+ for a BD player.

3.) Storage is a moot point. BD and their supporters love to talk about how much more storage space BD have. But most consumers, when it comes to buying movies, could care less if the disc holds 25GB or 50GB. It only matters when it comes to writable media. And let's face it... how many people do you know that has a BD or HD-DVD burner in their computer?

4.) Both formats skew their numbers. It's marketing. I do see a big difference between them though. BD announced earlier this week that they've sold 2.7 million hardware units including PS3 (built in drive) -and- set top players. HD-DVD announced several weeks ago that there numbers were around 750,000 units including HD-DVD ADDON for XBox360 -and- players. But how many people using the PS3 is actually watching BD movies? With HD-DVD you know that those that bought the additional drive for the XBox360 are most likely using it.

I can't find any official statistics on how many PS3 units have been sold since it launched in Nov. 2006 but recent figures I've seen estimate around 200,000 units per month. Using that number Sony has sold 2.4 million units in the last year. 2.4 million out of 2.7 million. To me it looks like Sony is skewing the numbers a bit more than HD-DVD.

Still, I do like the Sony brand when it comes to technology. I use Sony cameras, decks and tape stock for my film projects. And while I do like BD better my money is on HD-DVD on winning this in the end.

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Marc B.
Genrefinity.net - Your source for all things in the horror, science fiction and fantasy genres

Veridian3

Point 1 about name is something i've been aware of for a while and it seems they have been trying to change this a little. Dont know what its like elsewhere but where I live when they advertise movies on TV it used to be:

" Available to buy on XXdate on DVD and Blu-Ray"

Recently it changed to:

"Available to buy on XXdate on DVD and High Definition Blu-Ray"

thunderclap

There was a recent survey I saw (and I'll try and track down the link) where 27% of people had heard of HD-DVD while only something like 15% had heard of HD-DVD.

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Marc B.
Genrefinity.net - Your source for all things in the horror, science fiction and fantasy genres

Judas

The thing that strikes me as being possibly of interest..

is that the high definition races have already start for UHD.... who can make it to 7680x4320 (4320p)

Course it's going to be A LONG time i figure, the very soonest i would expect would be possibly 10 years...... but that's probably being optimistic....

But 2160p is still within the relms of possibility..

I mean westinghouse and a few dozen other manufacturers are in the process of profecting 1440p displays which is a very VERY nice jump from 1080p.... but would be much beter is they could jump all the way to 2160p (quadrupling the number of pixels and data required)


Essentially, IF BR-dvd is able to make 8 layer discs efficiently... there is a possibility that they MAY be able to put 2160p on these discs without feeling to cramped..... As it stands, i think HD-DVD has a max ability of 3 layers.... which leaves ALOT to be desired....

But i also doubt that any older or even recent BR-player will be able to read 8 layer BR-DVDs if they do arrive...

Holographic Dvd's will be the likely solution storing several TB of space.....

IMO, it would be nice if they just simply SKIPPED the BR/HD system, as they are already showing limitations that will become apparent very very quickly... seeing as 1080p displays are dropping like crazy in price..... Someones always going to race to the next "better" thing.... And a new standard of HDMI and with the advent of display port..... all we are limitted to right now is how many pixels a manufacturer can cram into the screens. (and of course how much information we can stick on current media)....and i guess how well our video cards can handle it.. but that's a rather quick fix in terms of the regular 8-10 month cycle time.

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BlueMak

I guess I am the only one that thinks too much detail is not always good for movies or tv.

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