Has online piracy reached a tipping point?

ET3D · Apr 20, 2009, 06:18 PM

It may be that the age of the readers has an effect on this, too. Baen readers are likely older and more mature. Also (and I've only read the Ars Technica article), it looks like the WotC move was more out of frustration rather than financial evaluation. Baen's argument on this matter is that sure, people do copy, but doesn't really hurt sales that much. (Again, I'd suggest that you read Eric Flint's articles.)

As for Stardock, if you follow their blog, they did say they made a mistake not taking into account a high level of piracy, but that the solution was simple and didn't require additional DRM. The problem wasn't even at the game level, just the number of game update requests. I like their stance on the subject.

YAYitsAndrew · Apr 20, 2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET3D

It may be that the age of the readers has an effect on this, too. Baen readers are likely older and more mature. Also (and I've only read the Ars Technica article), it looks like the WotC move was more out of frustration rather than financial evaluation. Baen's argument on this matter is that sure, people do copy, but doesn't really hurt sales that much. (Again, I'd suggest that you read Eric Flint's articles.)

As for Stardock, if you follow their blog, they did say they made a mistake not taking into account a high level of piracy, but that the solution was simple and didn't require additional DRM. The problem wasn't even at the game level, just the number of game update requests. I like their stance on the subject.

I would imagine that WotC's readers would be younger, but even to older players there is an advantage of having multiple PDFs around the game table. Having a copy of the rules for each player significantly speeds up play time and that's a valuable resource to a group of adults meeting weekly whenever they can fit it into their busy schedules. WotC needs to be careful that they are selling to the player and not to the table. One 20 dollar PDF being shared among an entire gaming group is a lot of missed sales. It's probably a fundamental difference between the business of selling game material and the business of selling fiction.

Stardock's main complaint is that the online connectivity issues resultant from all the pirates hammering the server affected their Big 3 reviews. IGN, Gamespot, and 1UP all gave poor reviews blaming the online play's bad connections for their low scores. It may just be coincidental, but DRM's main selling point is preventing zero-day issues exactly like this. Funny that it happened to Stardock.

Anyway, this stuff is all off topic so if you'd like to continue feel free to hit me up in PM or start a new topic.

Judas · Apr 20, 2009, 08:17 PM

just so that it's clear..

while claiming entitlement is indeed a bit rediculious..

would it be just as rediculious as thinking that being entitled to have clean pure water, food, and such? While Basic necessities are all well and good, everyone should be entitled to experience anything else someone else should... this is where god or superiority complexes come in and simply why then less then a fraction of a % of total population owns just about everything and get hooked into this phycotic frame of mind.

dawgXdenta · Apr 20, 2009, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

Why exactly does this man feel like he deserves to buy things clearly outside of his means? How much did the computer cost if the game is CR$450? Six months of salary? How did he even save up that much money CR$100 at a time? And if he spent so long saving, why'd he buy a computer with the money instead of an actual solution to his problem like an education and a better job? It sounds like a computer is just going to send his family deeper into debt. You start to wonder if this man is poor for a reason... maybe a lack in cognitive power?

A man earns USD$6000. He is expected to pay electricity, water, food ..... end of the month he is left with USD$2000. Do you think he will
a. buy a ferrari for USD$100,000 , 60" lcd tv for USD$4000, summer home for USD$800,000

That's what your argument looks like.

You offer a morally sound argument, a purist and perfectionists vision of right and wrong. Clearly true and right no arguments there. BTW i didnt neg rep you

FYI.
Anyway in this heavily ridden entertainment driven culture such purism is beyond the scope of reality practicably applied by the common man.
He also wants to watch lost and prison break to fit in with everyone else.

so if he cant afford satellite tv like the middle class here he will download the whole series from home or a friend.

you speak truth but unless you see how people in India, China, Botswna , South Africa........ live you clearly are out of touch with whats goin on Bud.

Harsh but true

dawgXdenta · Apr 20, 2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET3D

Entitlement is one of the most common excuses for piracy. You're saying that because you can't afford something and someone else can, then you're entitled to get it for free. That's bullshit.

It's even more bullshit because it's not as if you can't spend all your time gaming for little money. Sure, you won't play the latest best sellers, but it's possible to play quite a few games for no money at all. It's possible to play older games, even not very old, for little money. For example, I recently bought Tomb Raider: Anniversary on Steam for $5 and Assassin's Creed for $10.

I buy most of my media (games, movies, books) on sale. I get some for free (free e-books, online movies, ...; well, I do have a TV with cable now because of my wife, so most movies I watch are from that). I don't get the newest stuff when it's released, and I don't mind doing some work to find legal means of getting stuff. I download demos when I can before buying the games.

Entitlement is one of the lamest excuses for piracy.

wow woah there buddy, I DONT CONDONE PIRACY. did you miss that

jeepus

anyway. All i was saying so long as people suffer these things will be there just like all the Somali piracy ish.

now dont go biting off my head again

. I DONT CONDONE THAT EITHER
but. This stuff will be there so long as some people suffer. No one is entitled to something he hasnt worked for, but poverty has its backlashes thats all i was saying.

anyone else wanna read too deep into my sentences

FuNsTeR · Apr 20, 2009, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueMak

They need to lower the prices and remove DRM, movies, games, whatever. Yes, more people will "pirate" them, but more people will buy them too. You can't have new games for £50 and £40 and even £30 and expect people to always buy them in droves and when some of them decide to not buy the game and instead get it for free, the problem is not piracy or torrents or anything like that, the problem is the too high price and that someone who gets it for free has not only saved money but also trouble without requiring disc in or requiring a server to play his single player game, etc.
And at least in games, where at least in the past you were getting something more tangible for your money, now you are lucky if you get a leaflet saying how to install the game, or if you buy from a download only source, you don't even get that. So when someone is considering to buy a game has the following
Buy a legal copy=legal+too much money+not actualy owning your copy. Not legal= not legal +free+you actualy own your copy.
Tough decision for most people I am sure.

i posted this on another thread about pirate bay and i stand by my comments

"what these big companies don't understand is torrent sites advertise their clients work .... take myself as a example .. i have over 400 paid for Dvd titles most of them have been purchased on the back of downloading them from torrent sites like pirate bay and other torrent sites as a try before you buy route the same goes for software like anydvd etc .... cds i have roughly 3,000 cds 200 vinyl albums 500 vinyl singles and literally around a further 800 or so cassettes ..... music wise i tend to go down the same route of try before you buy ... and stuff that i have on cassette or vinyl .... stuff that i don't like gets deleted ... basically i use torrent sites to help me refine my spending habits ... and without torrent sites i would be more reluctant to part with my cash as i wouldn't know if it was a poor product .

i tend to nowadays go for the direct download route as my isp is shaping my download/upload speeds to ridiculous speeds and i am tied with them for another 9 months"

dawgXdenta · Apr 20, 2009, 09:04 PM

but Andrew man your argument: come on man

, comparing a down-loadable copyrighted picture of a Ferrari and the real thing

AIN'T THAT A STRETCH

Some dude in India is more likely to download and print a copyrighted picture and hang it on his wall than.....

If only it were possible to download a real ferrari

If that were so i'd be the first, LOL

But I know were ure coming from I'm a programmer too, the thought of my work being on bittorrent that just plain aint fair,

Then again the suffering aint fair either

piracy and poverty are bed pals. Get rid of one the other must follow.

REGARDLESS

Judas · Apr 20, 2009, 10:48 PM

get rid of currency... and there is no problem

YAYitsAndrew · Apr 20, 2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgXdenta

Anyway in this heavily ridden entertainment driven culture such purism is beyond the scope of reality practicably applied by the common man.
He also wants to watch lost and prison break to fit in with everyone else.

so if he cant afford satellite tv like the middle class here he will download the whole series from home or a friend.

you speak truth but unless you see how people in India, China, Botswna , South Africa........ live you clearly are out of touch with whats goin on Bud.

Harsh but true

Who does he want to talk about Lost and Prison Break with? If he has middle class friends with satellite TV who watch the show, can't he watch it with them? If he works or has some other obligation can't he ask his middle class friend to tape it for him?

If he doesn't have any middle class friends then all his friends should be unable to watch Lost (none of them can afford satellite TV) and therefore have no need to talk about it. What's more likely is people who can't afford satellite TV started pirating the shows and he has to commit the same illegal acts to keep up. This is just piracy begetting piracy and doesn't demand the sympathy you argue for.

I don't see any spiritual difference between piracy and physical theft. Even though one is tangible and one is not, the moral wrong is the same. I don't believe that it's ever okay to steal (even if you're stealing bread to feed your family) so it follows that I don't believe it's ever okay to pirate digital properties regardless of social standing.

dawgXdenta · Apr 20, 2009, 11:11 PM

me bud , he wants to talk with me and Callandor and you too LOL and cow and zardon....and.........

dawgXdenta · Apr 20, 2009, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

Who does he want to talk about Lost and Prison Break with? If he has middle class friends with satellite TV who watch the show, can't he watch it with them? If he works or has some other obligation can't he ask his middle class friend to tape it for him?

If he doesn't have any middle class friends then all his friends should be unable to watch Lost (none of them can afford satellite TV) and therefore have no need to talk about it. What's more likely is people who can't afford satellite TV started pirating the shows and he has to commit the same illegal acts to keep up. This is just piracy begetting piracy and doesn't demand the sympathy you argue for.

I don't see any spiritual difference between piracy and physical theft. Even though one is tangible and one is not, the moral wrong is the same. I don't believe that it's ever okay to steal (even if you're stealing bread to feed your family) so it follows that I don't believe it's ever okay to pirate digital properties regardless of social standing.

With you there buddy, ur on a prophetic cleanup campaign huh,

well good on you.

I ain't sympathizing with the devil, neither am i saying its right just sayin whats there , thats all. good to always look at things from a general perspective

we have a long way before we can rid ourselves of piracy, but till then keep an open mind then you'll see its real easy to persuade people against it.
Realise it aint just plain black and white, thieves steal coz they poor(i was once like you but my GF persuaded me to look at both sides)
If you can understand your enemy i.e(the causes of this theft) then you can defeat it.
But come blazing/fighting you'll have a long tedious taxing battle ahead

i guess now i'm the prophet

, word bro

YAYitsAndrew · Apr 20, 2009, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas

would it be just as rediculious as thinking that being entitled to have clean pure water, food, and such? While Basic necessities are all well and good, everyone should be entitled to experience anything else someone else should... this is where god or superiority complexes come in and simply why then less then a fraction of a % of total population owns just about everything and get hooked into this phycotic frame of mind.

Your views are narrow minded. You say the poor class should be entitled to experience everything the middle and upper classes can experience. But the very act of giving the poor class that entitlement is a gift. Now, doesn't the middle and upper classes also deserve an equivalent gift? After all, "everyone should be entitled to experience anything else someone else should." If you demand equality for one class, it's not allowed to be at the expense of another class, by the very definition of your argument. If it is not at the expense of another class then where do the resources come from? And why didn't you give any of them to the existing upper class? Don't they deserve to experience the outside resources as equally as the poor do?

YAYitsAndrew · Apr 20, 2009, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgXdenta

me bud , he wants to talk with me and Callandor and you too LOL and cow and zardon....and.........

But how'd he get the computer and the internet if he can't afford satellite TV! We've gone full circle! And what's he doing talking at a computer hardware enthusiast website!

dawgXdenta · Apr 20, 2009, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

But how'd he get the computer and the internet if he can't afford satellite TV! We've gone full circle! And what's he doing talking at a computer hardware enthusiast website!

where have you been:

The Third World Goes High-Tech: The Dirt Road to the Information Superhighway - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

An african owned tech group based in south africa:

SAHARA COMPUTERS SOUTH AFRICA - Home page

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008...-countries.php

dawgXdenta · Apr 20, 2009, 11:49 PM

You know i was joking when I said you were out of touch but duuuuuuuuuuuude, nah man . ure talking like I don't live in Africa knowing people who download stuff who don't have their own PC's and still cant afford all the software that come along with it.
Incl games movies and whatnot its real easy for one guy to take out his hard drive or get an external and copy stuff from a friend who does have internet.

REAL EASY, it does happen. I've seen it.
Take it from the horses mouth, so to speak.

Before I die from laughter lemme go man its 12am and i have work tommoro later man

ure one heckava character i'll give you that ;-)

..maybe u thought I was using flintstone technology or some sh^* , man you kill me

Judas · Apr 20, 2009, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

Your views are narrow minded. You say the poor class should be entitled to experience everything the middle and upper classes can experience. But the very act of giving the poor class that entitlement is a gift. Now, doesn't the middle and upper classes also deserve an equivalent gift? After all, "everyone should be entitled to experience anything else someone else should." If you demand equality for one class, it's not allowed to be at the expense of another class, by the very definition of your argument. If it is not at the expense of another class then where do the resources come from? And why didn't you give any of them to the existing upper class? Don't they deserve to experience the outside resources as equally as the poor do?

narrow minded?

your already thinking inside the box.

everyone in one way or another is entitled to everything, of equal values.... reguardless of class, money, race, religion, sex, species. The only train of thought that destroys this is when someone wants more then another.....

this in itself brings up greed.... Personally i'm by many considered VERY well off, i don't bitch, i don't moan, i don't do anything when someone either higher up in the chain of "class" or lower then me gets something i personally wouldn't mind having myself.

In the current world we live in, currency dictates this, and reguardless of how anyone is going to try and look at it as some other route cause, it's not possible. Our current resources, and population and everything we've got on this planet right now is more then enough for everything everybody could ever want/need. The technology has been available for more then half a century. And why aren't we living this better way? Because as it has been occuring for eons, the people at the top will do anything necessary to remain there. Not everyone at the top, but many. A change of this magnitude would require a huge number of people to be willing. But yet greed and the need for their name to be heard, labeled, and acknowledgement of there own being won't allow them to see beyond it.

Instead of taking pride in accomplishing things that you've done for yourself, we'd rather make a buck off of it, and demand recognition. And then furthermore putting restrictions on it in which forces more users to either bail out and get things via other means or to be like the rest of the sheep to simply accept it and carry on.

So in the world without the need for currency, would you be happier if you made your product and it was good enough that it became the dominate product for as long as something else comes out better, even if your name was on the creators list?

It's really not going to matter soon anyways, It's all for the buck, the system is so scewed as it is it's unknown if pirating is actually benificial or counterproductive at all, it cannot be proven one way or another, as there are legitimate arguements on both sides and countless others sitting on the fence. No scale, no comparison, no nothing is going to change that without either a MAJOR win for comsumers or a Major Loss for consumers. And with the way things are going, i'll likely be a loss.

ET3D · Apr 21, 2009, 11:58 AM

dawgXdenta, sorry, didn't mean to bite your head off. It's not a zombie forum with 3D blood effects anyway, so that's not much fun.

I can see the other side, but I think what you're saying isn't usually true. Some people do steal because they need that to live, but a lot of people who steal are not in that situation. In particular, nobody needs PC games to live, and even if they did, there are enough free games.

Anyway, I have less of a problem with poor countries and piracy. Thing is, I know a lot of people who have decent salaries and still pirate. They still say prices are too high, and feel they shouldn't pay them. People will pay $60 for a console game but pirate a PC game. Why? Because they can. They have the money, they just don't have to pay it, because it's so easy not to.

ET3D · Apr 21, 2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YAYitsAndrew

Anyway, this stuff is all off topic so if you'd like to continue feel free to hit me up in PM or start a new topic.

This thread is all off topic.

I mean, it's on the topic of piracy, but I think that on the original subject point, of piracy reaching a peak, the general consensus would be "what were they smoking?"

Apr 20, 2009, 06:18 PM	#31
ET3D Hopeless Dreamer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dreamland, near the pool of infinite graphics cards Posts: 3,057 Rep Power: 105 System Specs	Re: Has online piracy reached a tipping point? It may be that the age of the readers has an effect on this, too. Baen readers are likely older and more mature. Also (and I've only read the Ars Technica article), it looks like the WotC move was more out of frustration rather than financial evaluation. Baen's argument on this matter is that sure, people do copy, but doesn't really hurt sales that much. (Again, I'd suggest that you read Eric Flint's articles.) As for Stardock, if you follow their blog, they did say they made a mistake not taking into account a high level of piracy, but that the solution was simple and didn't require additional DRM. The problem wasn't even at the game level, just the number of game update requests. I like their stance on the subject.

Apr 20, 2009, 09:04 PM	#37
dawgXdenta HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Gabz Posts: 1,995 Rep Power: 135 System Specs	Re: Has online piracy reached a tipping point? but Andrew man your argument: come on man, comparing a down-loadable copyrighted picture of a Ferrari and the real thing AIN'T THAT A STRETCH Some dude in India is more likely to download and print a copyrighted picture and hang it on his wall than..... If only it were possible to download a real ferrari If that were so i'd be the first, LOL But I know were ure coming from I'm a programmer too, the thought of my work being on bittorrent that just plain aint fair, Then again the suffering aint fair either piracy and poverty are bed pals. Get rid of one the other must follow. REGARDLESS __________________ Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses. ______________________________________ http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

Apr 20, 2009, 11:11 PM	#40
dawgXdenta HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Gabz Posts: 1,995 Rep Power: 135 System Specs	Re: Has online piracy reached a tipping point? me bud , he wants to talk with me and Callandor and you too LOL and cow and zardon....and......... __________________ Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses. ______________________________________ http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/

Apr 20, 2009, 11:49 PM	#45
dawgXdenta HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Gabz Posts: 1,995 Rep Power: 135 System Specs	Re: Has online piracy reached a tipping point? You know i was joking when I said you were out of touch but duuuuuuuuuuuude, nah man . ure talking like I don't live in Africa knowing people who download stuff who don't have their own PC's and still cant afford all the software that come along with it. Incl games movies and whatnot its real easy for one guy to take out his hard drive or get an external and copy stuff from a friend who does have internet. REAL EASY, it does happen. I've seen it. Take it from the horses mouth, so to speak. Before I die from laughter lemme go man its 12am and i have work tommoro later man ure one heckava character i'll give you that ;-) ..maybe u thought I was using flintstone technology or some sh^* , man you kill me __________________ Today's world is of public opinion and the fates of nations are determined through its pressure. Once the tools for building public opinion are obtained, everything that you asked for can be done. --- Osama bin Laden when relating how global media has the minds of the masses. ______________________________________ http://dawgxdenta.deviantart.com/gallery/ Last edited by dawgXdenta; Apr 21, 2009 at 12:01 AM.

Apr 21, 2009, 11:58 AM	#47
ET3D Hopeless Dreamer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dreamland, near the pool of infinite graphics cards Posts: 3,057 Rep Power: 105 System Specs	Re: Has online piracy reached a tipping point? dawgXdenta, sorry, didn't mean to bite your head off. It's not a zombie forum with 3D blood effects anyway, so that's not much fun. I can see the other side, but I think what you're saying isn't usually true. Some people do steal because they need that to live, but a lot of people who steal are not in that situation. In particular, nobody needs PC games to live, and even if they did, there are enough free games. Anyway, I have less of a problem with poor countries and piracy. Thing is, I know a lot of people who have decent salaries and still pirate. They still say prices are too high, and feel they shouldn't pay them. People will pay $60 for a console game but pirate a PC game. Why? Because they can. They have the money, they just don't have to pay it, because it's so easy not to.