Driverheaven statement on Million Man Lan

Zardon · Jun 30, 2003, 03:30 PM

Its been a pretty crazy couple of days and ive been surfing the internet reading all sorts of comments and accusations regarding Tomshardware's handling of the Million Man Lan event. For those of you have missed it, im not posting all the information again but apparently AMDMB have accused Tomshardware of forcing a media blanket across this event, meaning that no other site or media source was allowed access or in fact to post information regarding this event.

Driverheaven is a quality site and I pride myself on the standard of editorial content that is posted on a frequent basis here from all my hand picked staff. I also like to class myself as an honourable man who likes to get to the truth of the matter, not just posting every article I can get my hands on to get hits and attention, or in fact as ive seen in some cases to damage another sites credibility.

Several days ago I received an email from the owner of AMDMB regarding an article he had posted stating he was not allowed entry to the Lan event and that in fact Tomshardware had forced all media to remain away, giving themselves exclusive rights to this.

This is something I would not post without verification, and as I had already before been asked by Dave Stellmack to attend the event myself personally as a guest of Tomshardware I found this article to be quite damning. I have read posts of conversations being taped and a few other issues, but this is really nothing I can verify or dismiss. All I can post are the events as I have experienced them over the last weeks.

Credibility I awoke this morning to read several threads on my own site and on other forums such as Rage3d and AMDMB, not only attacking the credibility of David Stellmack, but Terry Makedon for apparently coercing myself into not posting our coverage or he would stop support on this site. This could not be further from the truth and has angered me as not only is Terry a friend and genuinely dedicated to helping his customers but now my ethics are being questioned. Lets get one thing clear, Terry Makedon is commited to supporting the DH members and has never once threatened to stop supporting this site, and if I feel strongly about something or have proof on an underhanded matter, I post it. So enough gossip.

Driverheaven being forced away from Lan Man? Several weeks ago David and Terry asked me to come to the event to represent DH and to take pictures and get information, as I am based in Ireland and have a full time job this was not a possibility this time so instead several of my staff and some members have went on behalf of DH and we are in the process of getting an article on the site. Yes I did agree to hold on posting the DH article until Tomshardware has posted, but this was not forced on me. I agreed as a professional courtesy, so dont read anything else into it. The article will STILL be published, when its ready.

digitalwanderer · Jun 30, 2003, 03:47 PM

The next person who makes a baseless accusation or insult against Terry Makedon shall bear the full brunt of me wrath, I am NOT on staff here and feel no compulsions about saying that in any way nicely.

Terry is a hell of a guy who has shot straight and bent over backwards to help with the community and this condemning him before all the facts are in is PISSING ME OFF MAJORLY!

Terry Makedon (CatalystMaker) is the best thing that has happened to the ATi community since the bloody R300 and deserves a bit of time/room to get the facts of this together before ANY condemnation!

He's earned that from us, and I'm a bit disgusted at some people rushing to judgement on the man before he's even had a chance to explain.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right here, I'm saying we should have ALL the facts before we judge. All we have so far is ONE person calling foul and a whole bunch of other people who had no problem in going to MML2 to cover it, and DH holding off on publishing a story for a day or two out of professional curteousy. And YES that kind of professional curteousy goes on all the time behind the scenes here and at most other sites out there!

It ain't nothing new, it's part of being a major website. I think it isn't at all un-usual or even out of charecter for Zardon to do that, he's a very easy-going guy who is just out to run a great site and he's trying not to step on any toes...what's the big deal?

(BTW-I am deadly earnest about my blatant threat towards anyone casting anymore assertions about Mr.Makedon's character before the facts are in, I am HONKED OFF!

)

toddsmack2k · Jun 30, 2003, 04:07 PM

I will say it again. I was there, I met each and everyone of the guys everyone here is talking about, I was allowed to take notes and pictures, I have never been treated so nice before, I am the one getting the article together for DH, I never was asked any questions about what I was doing and never was recorded. I stand behind Zardon's response 100%. This issue needs to be put to sleep. The event ended sunday so it also works out for the best that we have a few days to get this article together anyway. As there is input from not just me be others here at DH. I see no problem in letting THG have first shot at this, they were one of the main guys there. I went there as a friend and representative of Driverheaven and each and every one of those guys I met there treated me with nothing but the best. For those of you who dont really know Terry all that well guess what he is one of the greatest guys I have had the pleasure to meet. He hung out with me for at least 3 hours being totally cool and being a friend. The same applies to all including THG and Amd as well as each and every other one I met. I personally can vouch for these guys.

digitalwanderer · Jun 30, 2003, 04:26 PM

Thank you Toddsmack2k, that's what I was waiting to hear. Unless Pelly puts up them damning tapes I'm putting it down to sour grapes from one individual.

toddsmack2k · Jun 30, 2003, 04:50 PM

Anytime Dig and it is easy to say those things cause they are the truth!

digitalwanderer · Jun 30, 2003, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toddsmack2k
Anytime Dig and it is easy to say those things cause they are the truth!

And it's a lot easier for me to trust the word of people I know who were there, and I have been hearing NOTHING bad from anyone else with the exception of Pelly...

***Veridian3*** · Jun 30, 2003, 05:58 PM

Well said all, and i cant wait for the article

Stu

Dyre Straits · Jun 30, 2003, 06:28 PM

There is an official response posted today on Tom's Hardware Guide:

http://www.tomshardware.com/technews...30_012924.html

EDIT: What's puzzling me at this point about the whole matter is this: Ryan Shrout seems to be the only one of the 'online press' claiming that he encountered this treatment. At least, he's the only one writing that he was treated badly. If this situation was, indeed, a 'policy' being pushed at the MML2, where are all the other outcries of unfairness?

I've been involved in a LOT of large gatherings through the years and there's always a risk of confusion, miscommunication, misunderstanding, etc. AND, while I know nothing at all about Ryan Shrout, I DO know that there can always be a possibility that there's one party who seems to want more than he's entitled to.

Just what was it that Ryan was expecting and demanding when he made his requests to enter the exhibits? Was he expecting too much? Just who were the people that he dealt with that he claims treated him poorly?

Like many others, I have no personal knowledge of the events that transpired. However, I'd like to see some posts from those who may have witnessed what Ryan claims he experienced. From what he wrote, if it's true at all, then there are others in the same boat. If he's the 'lone voice in the wilderness' then it's going to be more of a matter of sour grapes. At this point, that's what it appears to me to be.

FuNsTeR · Jun 30, 2003, 07:57 PM

obviously the spoon suffers from massive chip on the shoulder syndrome mixed with a massive hint of sour grapes

~~tenndevil~~ · Jun 30, 2003, 08:14 PM

And you call the article at THG professional and not from the gutter, The letter sounds like it was written by a 14 year old trying to explain something away, so this is the gospel as you guys see fit, sounds good no more threats from digital for disagreeing him and waiting for thet facts to come in? If this is your idea of facts I sure would hate to see any proof. So you have chosen sides? Thats good, it's good to stand for something even if you don't have all the facts. It still rings true wether any was asked or coerced the information was stifled from a public event. Next time THG wants an exclusuive let them earn it not buy it.

**Roadee** · Jun 30, 2003, 08:21 PM

As for me........the way I look at it, I haven't read any of the articles on any of the other sites....at all. I heard that DH was going to have people there and there was going to be an article. Seeing the quality of articles that are written on this site.....I will read them first.....then go to the other site's and see what they have, to get a bigger picture of the thing. I am hoping that DH will have plenty of pictures to post as I was not able to make the drive down there (400 miles). It just alway's amazes me on how 1 comment can make such a mess, and I truly hope that no ones reputation is scarred by this mess.

To the people from DH that were able to go, and will contribute your experiences to the article.......my hat is off to you and I wish you a very large Thanks!!

I also hope that Terry will contribute something towards the article, if not his own article, so that we can see his adventure as a person that was representing ATI. He will see things that none of us can.

Cheers to all who are making this article possible, I am sure it will be a good read.

toddsmack2k · Jun 30, 2003, 08:23 PM

I was giving my opinion from what I saw first hand while there. As are some of the others here as they were there also. No one is choosing a side without rationalizing what they saw first hand. It truly is unfortunate that you feel somehow miffed by all this and if indeed it did happen that is not good. Surely though you can see where most everyone is coming from here on this point. You are the only one no one else as of yet has had anything bad to day to say of the whole event but you. What proof do you have? the proof we have was members there with these people! As I was one of them!

Roadee the article will be soon very soon, we are busting our butts getting it all done and together!

digitalwanderer · Jun 30, 2003, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tenndevil
It still rings true wether any was asked or coerced the information was stifled from a public event.

Y'know you're starting to sound like a bit of a self-righteous lunatic to me here.

Whether it "rings true" or not doesn't change the fact that Ryan's case is an isolated event and NOT indicative of how THG & AMD handled themselves at MML2.

Until there is ANY proof otherwise I find your attitude rather silly.

Dyre Straits · Jun 30, 2003, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tenndevil
And you call the article at THG professional and not from the gutter, The letter sounds like it was written by a 14 year old trying to explain something away, so this is the gospel as you guys see fit, sounds good no more threats from digital for disagreeing him and waiting for thet facts to come in? If this is your idea of facts I sure would hate to see any proof. So you have chosen sides? Thats good, it's good to stand for something even if you don't have all the facts. It still rings true wether any was asked or coerced the information was stifled from a public event. Next time THG wants an exclusuive let them earn it not buy it.

Sorry, but the way the evidence is stacking up, it appears that it's you who is willing to take one person's 'report' and let that outweigh all the other comments and posts from those who were actually there.

I'm more interested in hearing from people who were actually there and can comment from firsthand experience to what may or may not have happened. That's the only way the whole matter can be properly assessed.

Simply taking one person's viewpoint and elevating THAT to a 'gospel' status, is pretty biased -- or shortsighted at the very least.

DeathscytheFish · Jun 30, 2003, 08:41 PM

Quote:

I was at MML2 and all the AMDMB.com stuff aside, David Stellmack was a complete asshole during the entire event. He took over every presentation by every sponsor except Nvidia and Cisco (and I think Hitachi, dunno cos I didn't go to that one). Someone asked ATI a question and Stellmack from THG said "Oh, you can't talk about that" when the ATI rep was going to talk about it! Also, the sponsors were throwing prizes out in the crowd, like these boxes that have radios or toolkits in them, they were sealed, and they were also throwing pens, and stellmack said "Don't do that! You'll get us in trouble!" While I can understand the pens, the boxes were not going to hurt anyone.

The sponsors would throw Tshirts out and Stellmack would tell them to stop, Stellmack would talk to every gamer who had a question like they were an idiot and should have kept their mouth shut. Stellmack also forced the cancellation of an official tournament. The tournament area was right behind the speaker area, and the DDR tournament (no, I don't play, but what he did was shitty) was about to start. He was of course taking over the Abit or Asus session and forced them to turn down the volume all the way, but that wasn't enough. Stellmack forced them to turn it off completely and stop playing. Stellmack was not official staff of MML and had no authority, yet he constantly threatened to have whoever didn't do what he wanted thrown out.

Stellmack was a stellar asshole. The best presentation was the Nvidia one where they presented their Nforce 2 and completely showed and supported overclocking. ATI, AMD, etc were stuck up Stellmack's ass and their presentations were a completley corporate affair, except when the AMD reps kept saying "god damn" and "shit" on the PA, while it doesn't offend me, I'm sure that's not the image AMD wants to put forth.

Basically, Stellmack's presence and actions basically turned MML from a lan party to a Qcon or CPL type event, which is not why I came to MML. I could have gone to Qcon or CPL yet I didnt, and if stellmack is at the next MML I won't be going.

I've seen other replies like this on other forums, and now that THG is going to SUE amdmb.com, I do think THG is going a little far and showing just how much of an asshole they can be.

Until somebody shows me different, and until THG can stop acting like spoiled little brats, then i'm sticking with the fact that THG can go screw itself.

digitalwanderer · Jun 30, 2003, 08:41 PM

..didn't he have a run in having to do with some benchmark he "went public with" a while back? I could be wrong, but I got a vague memory of it and think I read it in another thread....

~~tenndevil~~ · Jun 30, 2003, 08:46 PM

I didn't realize that THG and driverheaven were tied at the hip, THG has had more than it's share of trouble, and yet you trust them as technology gods. Since you have resorted to name calling only a simple minded little man would close his minds to all the possibilites. The question still remains Ryan said it happended can you prove it didn't, I can't, and based on THG previous run-ins with other sites and reviews, I have had to question them (THG) alot more than I have amdmb. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours, I will wait for the jury to come back, since that seems to be where it's going. Lunatic if you say so, Thought provoking sure. And again as silly as this sounds: Thats why freedom of speach is No. 1 in Our Constitution. Why the folks here at DriverHeaven have taken it personal I'll never know, these are just my observations.

Oh-no it seems as more reports are coming in, and that Stellmeck may have started some trouble? Or stopped something when it wasn't going his way?

Zardon · Jun 30, 2003, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tenndevil
I didn't realize that THG and driverheaven were tied at the hip, THG has had more than it's share of trouble, and yet you trust them as technology gods. Since you have resorted to name calling only a simple minded little man would close his minds to all the possibilites. The question still remains Ryan said it happended can you prove it didn't, I can't, and based on THG previous run-ins with other sites and reviews, I have had to question them (THG) alot more than I have amdmb. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours, I will wait for the jury to come back, since that seems to be where it's going. Lunatic if you say so, Thought provoking sure. And again as silly as this sounds: Thats why freedom of speach is No. 1 in Our Constitution. Why the folks here at DriverHeaven have taken it personal I'll never know, these are just my observations.

Oh-no it seems as more reports are coming in, and that Stellmeck may have started some trouble? Or stopped something when it wasn't going his way?

TNG and Driverheaven are NOT tied at the hip. "I trust them as technology gods?" were the hell are you coming from?

I have taken it personal my little friend because you have questioned MY integrity and that is something that I find unacceptable, you dont even KNOW me for one, and the fact you are arrogant enough to accuse me of selling out to Terry Makedon and THG is ridiculous and insulting to my intelligence. I certainly dont accuse you of being a narrowminded person with a personal grudge against other sites.

I have stated quite clearly that ALL I can post is what I know for a fact in my dealings with these people. I dont know what David did last week, or with who. But I will not post damning information on someone that comes from another source if I dont know for sure its correct. I wouldnt do it in reverse either, what sort of ethics would that be Tenn? Do you think that I should post an article on the front page saying that the guy sucks and has done this and that when I dont know for sure, and its only information passed around from other people?

This is turning into a childish bickering session and has nothing to do with my statement which has clearly depicted what has happened and my involvement in the last week. Not what you felt you could PUT into my mouth or spread around the net in your own twisted way.

You came here and accused myself and Terry Makedon of situations and events which have never happened, situations that I have explained in detail in my first post. And you have totally disrespected myself and this site with some of your postings.

This thread is now closed.

Jun 30, 2003, 03:30 PM	#1
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	Driverheaven statement on Million Man Lan Its been a pretty crazy couple of days and ive been surfing the internet reading all sorts of comments and accusations regarding Tomshardware's handling of the Million Man Lan event. For those of you have missed it, im not posting all the information again but apparently AMDMB have accused Tomshardware of forcing a media blanket across this event, meaning that no other site or media source was allowed access or in fact to post information regarding this event. Driverheaven is a quality site and I pride myself on the standard of editorial content that is posted on a frequent basis here from all my hand picked staff. I also like to class myself as an honourable man who likes to get to the truth of the matter, not just posting every article I can get my hands on to get hits and attention, or in fact as ive seen in some cases to damage another sites credibility. Several days ago I received an email from the owner of AMDMB regarding an article he had posted stating he was not allowed entry to the Lan event and that in fact Tomshardware had forced all media to remain away, giving themselves exclusive rights to this. This is something I would not post without verification, and as I had already before been asked by Dave Stellmack to attend the event myself personally as a guest of Tomshardware I found this article to be quite damning. I have read posts of conversations being taped and a few other issues, but this is really nothing I can verify or dismiss. All I can post are the events as I have experienced them over the last weeks. Credibility I awoke this morning to read several threads on my own site and on other forums such as Rage3d and AMDMB, not only attacking the credibility of David Stellmack, but Terry Makedon for apparently coercing myself into not posting our coverage or he would stop support on this site. This could not be further from the truth and has angered me as not only is Terry a friend and genuinely dedicated to helping his customers but now my ethics are being questioned. Lets get one thing clear, Terry Makedon is commited to supporting the DH members and has never once threatened to stop supporting this site, and if I feel strongly about something or have proof on an underhanded matter, I post it. So enough gossip. Driverheaven being forced away from Lan Man? Several weeks ago David and Terry asked me to come to the event to represent DH and to take pictures and get information, as I am based in Ireland and have a full time job this was not a possibility this time so instead several of my staff and some members have went on behalf of DH and we are in the process of getting an article on the site. Yes I did agree to hold on posting the DH article until Tomshardware has posted, but this was not forced on me. I agreed as a professional courtesy, so dont read anything else into it. The article will STILL be published, when its ready.

Jun 30, 2003, 03:47 PM	#2
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,619 Rep Power: 0	I'd like to add one thing to that... The next person who makes a baseless accusation or insult against Terry Makedon shall bear the full brunt of me wrath, I am NOT on staff here and feel no compulsions about saying that in any way nicely. Terry is a hell of a guy who has shot straight and bent over backwards to help with the community and this condemning him before all the facts are in is PISSING ME OFF MAJORLY! Terry Makedon (CatalystMaker) is the best thing that has happened to the ATi community since the bloody R300 and deserves a bit of time/room to get the facts of this together before ANY condemnation! He's earned that from us, and I'm a bit disgusted at some people rushing to judgement on the man before he's even had a chance to explain. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right here, I'm saying we should have ALL the facts before we judge. All we have so far is ONE person calling foul and a whole bunch of other people who had no problem in going to MML2 to cover it, and DH holding off on publishing a story for a day or two out of professional curteousy. And YES that kind of professional curteousy goes on all the time behind the scenes here and at most other sites out there! It ain't nothing new, it's part of being a major website. I think it isn't at all un-usual or even out of charecter for Zardon to do that, he's a very easy-going guy who is just out to run a great site and he's trying not to step on any toes...what's the big deal? (BTW-I am deadly earnest about my blatant threat towards anyone casting anymore assertions about Mr.Makedon's character before the facts are in, I am HONKED OFF! ) __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Jun 30, 2003, 04:07 PM	#3
toddsmack2k It Never..... Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,173 Rep Power: 0	I will say it again. I was there, I met each and everyone of the guys everyone here is talking about, I was allowed to take notes and pictures, I have never been treated so nice before, I am the one getting the article together for DH, I never was asked any questions about what I was doing and never was recorded. I stand behind Zardon's response 100%. This issue needs to be put to sleep. The event ended sunday so it also works out for the best that we have a few days to get this article together anyway. As there is input from not just me be others here at DH. I see no problem in letting THG have first shot at this, they were one of the main guys there. I went there as a friend and representative of Driverheaven and each and every one of those guys I met there treated me with nothing but the best. For those of you who dont really know Terry all that well guess what he is one of the greatest guys I have had the pleasure to meet. He hung out with me for at least 3 hours being totally cool and being a friend. The same applies to all including THG and Amd as well as each and every other one I met. I personally can vouch for these guys. __________________ [color=blue]*Bleeding From the Inside Pouring Out, The* *DriverHeaven* Spiral, We Shall Never Let Go Of.[/color]

Jun 30, 2003, 04:26 PM	#4
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,619 Rep Power: 0	Thank you Toddsmack2k, that's what I was waiting to hear. Unless Pelly puts up them damning tapes I'm putting it down to sour grapes from one individual. __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Jun 30, 2003, 04:50 PM	#5
toddsmack2k It Never..... Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,173 Rep Power: 0	Anytime Dig and it is easy to say those things cause they are the truth! __________________ [color=blue]*Bleeding From the Inside Pouring Out, The* *DriverHeaven* Spiral, We Shall Never Let Go Of.[/color]

Jun 30, 2003, 05:58 PM	#7
*Veridian3* Administrator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cloaked Posts: 5,028 Rep Power: 182	Well said all, and i cant wait for the article Stu

Jun 30, 2003, 07:57 PM	#9
FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Darkest Ayrshire Posts: 1,305 Rep Power: 88 System Specs	obviously the spoon suffers from massive chip on the shoulder syndrome mixed with a massive hint of sour grapes __________________ "They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Jun 30, 2003, 08:14 PM	#10
~~tenndevil~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 128 Rep Power: 0	And you call the article at THG professional and not from the gutter, The letter sounds like it was written by a 14 year old trying to explain something away, so this is the gospel as you guys see fit, sounds good no more threats from digital for disagreeing him and waiting for thet facts to come in? If this is your idea of facts I sure would hate to see any proof. So you have chosen sides? Thats good, it's good to stand for something even if you don't have all the facts. It still rings true wether any was asked or coerced the information was stifled from a public event. Next time THG wants an exclusuive let them earn it not buy it.

Jun 30, 2003, 08:21 PM	#11
Roadee Never forgotten Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Rest In peace, Joe. Posts: 2,198 Rep Power: 69	As for me........the way I look at it, I haven't read any of the articles on any of the other sites....at all. I heard that DH was going to have people there and there was going to be an article. Seeing the quality of articles that are written on this site.....I will read them first.....then go to the other site's and see what they have, to get a bigger picture of the thing. I am hoping that DH will have plenty of pictures to post as I was not able to make the drive down there (400 miles). It just alway's amazes me on how 1 comment can make such a mess, and I truly hope that no ones reputation is scarred by this mess. To the people from DH that were able to go, and will contribute your experiences to the article.......my hat is off to you and I wish you a very large Thanks!! I also hope that Terry will contribute something towards the article, if not his own article, so that we can see his adventure as a person that was representing ATI. He will see things that none of us can. Cheers to all who are making this article possible, I am sure it will be a good read. __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Jun 30, 2003, 08:23 PM	#12
toddsmack2k It Never..... Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,173 Rep Power: 0	I was giving my opinion from what I saw first hand while there. As are some of the others here as they were there also. No one is choosing a side without rationalizing what they saw first hand. It truly is unfortunate that you feel somehow miffed by all this and if indeed it did happen that is not good. Surely though you can see where most everyone is coming from here on this point. You are the only one no one else as of yet has had anything bad to day to say of the whole event but you. What proof do you have? the proof we have was members there with these people! As I was one of them! Roadee the article will be soon very soon, we are busting our butts getting it all done and together! __________________ [color=blue]*Bleeding From the Inside Pouring Out, The* *DriverHeaven* Spiral, We Shall Never Let Go Of.[/color]

Jun 30, 2003, 08:41 PM	#16
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,619 Rep Power: 0	On Ryan... ..didn't he have a run in having to do with some benchmark he "went public with" a while back? I could be wrong, but I got a vague memory of it and think I read it in another thread.... __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Jun 30, 2003, 08:46 PM	#17
~~tenndevil~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 128 Rep Power: 0	I didn't realize that THG and driverheaven were tied at the hip, THG has had more than it's share of trouble, and yet you trust them as technology gods. Since you have resorted to name calling only a simple minded little man would close his minds to all the possibilites. The question still remains Ryan said it happended can you prove it didn't, I can't, and based on THG previous run-ins with other sites and reviews, I have had to question them (THG) alot more than I have amdmb. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours, I will wait for the jury to come back, since that seems to be where it's going. Lunatic if you say so, Thought provoking sure. And again as silly as this sounds: Thats why freedom of speach is No. 1 in Our Constitution. Why the folks here at DriverHeaven have taken it personal I'll never know, these are just my observations. Oh-no it seems as more reports are coming in, and that Stellmeck may have started some trouble? Or stopped something when it wasn't going his way?