ATI's Response to recent allegations of benchmark cheating

Zardon · Oct 28, 2003, 10:28 PM

From Rage3d:

We take these allegations very seriously and are distressed by the implication that we are cheating our customers. At ATI we have taken a strong stance against application specific optimizations in benchmarks. Further, we never force optimizations that deliver lower image quality than the game developer has intended.

Three applications have been specifically questioned: UT2003, Halo and AquaMark3.

UT2003: We are working with Epic, to address a bug that has a slight impact on the image quality in the game and benchmark in certain situations. This is a known issue that has been recognized by both ATI and Epic as a bug. ATI is not cheating in any way in this application.

Halo: Although allegations of cheating have been made, no one has been able to find any example of decreased image quality in the game. In fact, many examples have been documented on the web where ATI cards and drivers are rendering a superior image to competing products. Again, ATI is not cheating in any way in this application.

AquaMark3: We are currently investigating our rendering in AquaMark3. We have identified that we are rendering an image that is slightly different than the reference rasterizer, but at this point in time we are unable to identify why that is. We believe that this does not have any impact on our performance. Our investigation will continue to identify the cause and resolve it as soon as possible. One point to note is that we render the same image using our latest driver (CATALYST 3.8) as we do with a driver that pre-dates the release of Aquamark3 by almost six months (CATALYST 3.2). Also, in all of our dealings with the developer of Aquamark3, at no point have they advised us that they are unsatisfied with the images that we are rendering. We do not have any application specific optimizations in our driver and we are not cheating in this application.

If you have further questions about the way RADEON graphics cards render in these application we encourage you to contact the game's developers directly.

We are disappointed that certain media outlets chose to perpetuate the allegations, made originally by a competitor, in their articles without an understanding of what was happening and without contacting us for comment.

We are committed to delivering the best gaming experience possible, without sacrificing image quality for increased performance in benchmarks.

Patti Mikula

nForcer · Oct 28, 2003, 10:57 PM

Instead of pointing fingers maybe we should look at who isn't cheating rather than who's assuming that there is a rumor indication some type of cheating may be taking place.

starboy · Oct 28, 2003, 11:07 PM

Quote:

We are committed to delivering the best gaming experience possible, without sacrificing image quality for increased performance in benchmarks.

I remember nvidia did say this kind of similar words before. Anyway. No more trust for both competitor. Whose card is cheap, than i go for it.

The_Neon_Cowboy · Oct 28, 2003, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nForcer
Instead of pointing fingers maybe we should look at who isn't cheating rather than who's assuming that there is a rumor indication some type of cheating may be taking place.

What doesn’t make since is they talk about the images being darker on Ati cards for higher scores. Yet a mouth ago it was all about comparing how the NVIDIA drivers are darker? That’s real fishy

If I hit my windows key or close say UT2003 abnormally or just about any game I have to reboot as the gamma is so bright it’s hard to see much

Wish I had a FX to use for comparison. But, Only way I’d take one is beyond cheap or free.

Vengeance · Oct 29, 2003, 02:28 AM

With all the crap going on with nvidia cheating, does anyone truely think ATI would be dumb enough to try and get away with something like this?
I wouldnt (and dont) think they would be! Dont forget this was all brought on by nvidia and there partners in the "Way its meant to be played" program.
You think nvidia didnt have anything to do with this?

Is it any diffrent than what Valve did? That I cant say.
But personaly I dought that ATI put valve up to it.
Gabe Newell <---SP

Doesnt seem like the kinda guy you could strong arm.

Right now it looks a lot like the "He said, She said BS!!! From nvidia and there little peeons!

mainman · Oct 29, 2003, 03:08 AM

Well, nvidia, thats really no the way to deal with your bad cards, i think nvidia is bether off trying to make good cards than rather trying to find what does our does not work with the competition. That is really not the way to win back their first place on the video card war.

BWX · Oct 29, 2003, 03:52 AM

After studying those aquamark pics for a while- It's obvious to me that ATI is rendering more detail in certain areas, but some parts are just a little bit darker for some reason. I could prove it with a quick crop/cut/and paste..... but there probably is no need.

Warpy · Oct 29, 2003, 04:23 AM

I don’t know why people are making such a big deal out of what appears to be very little. ATI's reputation has already proven to outweigh its competitors in terms of driver support, community updates, feedback like we have just read and an interest in forums such as DH.

I think we need to spend less time pointing the smelly green finger and use time more wisely (Unless it's constructive critism

) - providing assistance to those who have real issues. ATI Technologies doesn’t need to cheat, benchmarks have proven this in the past. They own the gaming industry at present, allegations from other forums and news threads need to pipe down, I think the differences in the games and tool sets like AquaMark03 are like specs of dust, to call this cheating is rather unwise and foolish, especially when ATI have identified the issue and are trying to publicly resolve it

* Dont put ya fingers in a CPU fan...

BWX · Oct 29, 2003, 04:36 AM

I think this way: better to get it out in the open, investigate it, then disprove it or correct it if necessary; than to not do anything and let people just wonder, accuse, or start rumors. At least now we know what the deal is. On the other hand, Nvidia saying stuff like that in the first place is pretty crazy considering the past few months...

Warpy · Oct 29, 2003, 05:07 AM

I agree, just proves that rival companies to ATI are desperate to create friction for better publicity on their part. Monkeys they are!!

nForcer · Oct 29, 2003, 06:05 AM

I don't really care for either company at the moment. nVidia dominated for a while, ATI's bringing thier own, now both have pushed competition levels so high that we've reached physical limitations. And lies are spreading like wildfire to cloud the issue.

kalx · Oct 29, 2003, 09:30 AM

Sorry but I play games on my ati for fun , I don`t see how ppl can be pulling up each other over stills
The fact is your eye cannot notice detail when playign a game at 60 fps
if your sad enough to have to sit there takign screenshots every five mins to find this sort of guff.
your obviously in the wrong scene.

Ill never understand why anyone cares weather a image is slightly darker on their card , blah blah

all of this IQ stuff is gettign beyond a joke now ,

Boring Boring Boring

Please someone Get a grip and realise that gfx cards are about moving images
not static grabs so we can compare pixel shades.

Go on flame me , i`m ready but this is totally worthless benchmarking if you ask me.

Unless there is a really blatant difference between IQ
Why even mention it.
A couepl of shades lighter colours are not worth a 1 page article never mind 2 pages , Please find these so called journalists somethign to do before they start comparing Curtains and Ironing board covers.

***Veridian3*** · Oct 29, 2003, 10:59 AM

The worst thing about the Halo optimisation is that the developer mentioned it at Nvidias editors day...but couldnt back it up. What an ass he must feel now.

Stu

BWX · Oct 29, 2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kalx
The fact is your eye cannot notice detail when playign a game at 60 fps

I can see the detail no mater how fast the framerate- maybe you can't - I sure can though..

If you can't notice detail why not just run a game with no AA or AF and all the quality settings to the minimum and buy geforce 2?

I don't know if you've heard people say that a person cannot see the difference in framerate at anything above 60hz- so you have taken that to say that a person can't see detail of the picture at anything above 60hz.. But you are confused.

Picture quality does not somehow disappear at 60hz.... If what you said is true there would be no reason to further develop better looking games or better video cards- think about it.

BWX · Oct 31, 2003, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kalx

The fact is your eye cannot notice detail when playign a game at 60 fps

all of this IQ stuff is gettign beyond a joke now ,

Boring Boring Boring

Please someone Get a grip and realise that gfx cards are about moving images
not static grabs so we can compare pixel shades.

Must be on your monitor, after 60fps your games start looking like this:

TonyMonTana · Oct 31, 2003, 04:27 PM

Lmfao

Oct 28, 2003, 10:28 PM	#1
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	ATI's Response to recent allegations of benchmark cheating From Rage3d: We take these allegations very seriously and are distressed by the implication that we are cheating our customers. At ATI we have taken a strong stance against application specific optimizations in benchmarks. Further, we never force optimizations that deliver lower image quality than the game developer has intended. Three applications have been specifically questioned: UT2003, Halo and AquaMark3. UT2003: We are working with Epic, to address a bug that has a slight impact on the image quality in the game and benchmark in certain situations. This is a known issue that has been recognized by both ATI and Epic as a bug. ATI is not cheating in any way in this application. Halo: Although allegations of cheating have been made, no one has been able to find any example of decreased image quality in the game. In fact, many examples have been documented on the web where ATI cards and drivers are rendering a superior image to competing products. Again, ATI is not cheating in any way in this application. AquaMark3: We are currently investigating our rendering in AquaMark3. We have identified that we are rendering an image that is slightly different than the reference rasterizer, but at this point in time we are unable to identify why that is. We believe that this does not have any impact on our performance. Our investigation will continue to identify the cause and resolve it as soon as possible. One point to note is that we render the same image using our latest driver (CATALYST 3.8) as we do with a driver that pre-dates the release of Aquamark3 by almost six months (CATALYST 3.2). Also, in all of our dealings with the developer of Aquamark3, at no point have they advised us that they are unsatisfied with the images that we are rendering. We do not have any application specific optimizations in our driver and we are not cheating in this application. If you have further questions about the way RADEON graphics cards render in these application we encourage you to contact the game's developers directly. We are disappointed that certain media outlets chose to perpetuate the allegations, made originally by a competitor, in their articles without an understanding of what was happening and without contacting us for comment. We are committed to delivering the best gaming experience possible, without sacrificing image quality for increased performance in benchmarks. Patti Mikula

Oct 29, 2003, 02:28 AM	#5
Vengeance DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Fort Worth TX Posts: 643 Rep Power: 0	With all the crap going on with nvidia cheating, does anyone truely think ATI would be dumb enough to try and get away with something like this? I wouldnt (and dont) think they would be! Dont forget this was all brought on by nvidia and there partners in the "Way its meant to be played" program. You think nvidia didnt have anything to do with this? Is it any diffrent than what Valve did? That I cant say. But personaly I dought that ATI put valve up to it. Gabe Newell <---SP Doesnt seem like the kinda guy you could strong arm. Right now it looks a lot like the "He said, She said BS!!! From nvidia and there little peeons! __________________ [color=red]Rage3D Super Moderator[/color] [color=red]BFG 6800 GT [/color] Last edited by Vengeance; Oct 29, 2003 at 03:30 AM.

Oct 29, 2003, 03:08 AM	#6
mainman Mr. Nobody Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: OmniPresent Nightwatcher Posts: 5,961 Rep Power: 71	Well, nvidia, thats really no the way to deal with your bad cards, i think nvidia is bether off trying to make good cards than rather trying to find what does our does not work with the competition. That is really not the way to win back their first place on the video card war. __________________

Oct 29, 2003, 03:52 AM	#7
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	After studying those aquamark pics for a while- It's obvious to me that ATI is rendering more detail in certain areas, but some parts are just a little bit darker for some reason. I could prove it with a quick crop/cut/and paste..... but there probably is no need. __________________

Oct 29, 2003, 04:23 AM	#8
Warpy DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2,761 Rep Power: 0	I don’t know why people are making such a big deal out of what appears to be very little. ATI's reputation has already proven to outweigh its competitors in terms of driver support, community updates, feedback like we have just read and an interest in forums such as DH. I think we need to spend less time pointing the smelly green finger and use time more wisely (Unless it's constructive critism ) - providing assistance to those who have real issues. ATI Technologies doesn’t need to cheat, benchmarks have proven this in the past. They own the gaming industry at present, allegations from other forums and news threads need to pipe down, I think the differences in the games and tool sets like AquaMark03 are like specs of dust, to call this cheating is rather unwise and foolish, especially when ATI have identified the issue and are trying to publicly resolve it * Dont put ya fingers in a CPU fan... __________________ The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." Last edited by Warpy; Oct 29, 2003 at 04:32 AM.

Oct 28, 2003, 10:57 PM	#2
nForcer Twice the fun! Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,404 Rep Power: 0	Instead of pointing fingers maybe we should look at who isn't cheating rather than who's assuming that there is a rumor indication some type of cheating may be taking place.

Oct 29, 2003, 04:36 AM	#9
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	I think this way: better to get it out in the open, investigate it, then disprove it or correct it if necessary; than to not do anything and let people just wonder, accuse, or start rumors. At least now we know what the deal is. On the other hand, Nvidia saying stuff like that in the first place is pretty crazy considering the past few months... __________________

Oct 29, 2003, 05:07 AM	#10
Warpy DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 2,761 Rep Power: 0	I agree, just proves that rival companies to ATI are desperate to create friction for better publicity on their part. Monkeys they are!! __________________ The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Oct 29, 2003, 06:05 AM	#11
nForcer Twice the fun! Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,404 Rep Power: 0	I don't really care for either company at the moment. nVidia dominated for a while, ATI's bringing thier own, now both have pushed competition levels so high that we've reached physical limitations. And lies are spreading like wildfire to cloud the issue.

Oct 29, 2003, 09:30 AM	#12
kalx DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Evil Mountain Lair Posts: 248 Rep Power: 0	Sorry but I play games on my ati for fun , I don`t see how ppl can be pulling up each other over stills The fact is your eye cannot notice detail when playign a game at 60 fps if your sad enough to have to sit there takign screenshots every five mins to find this sort of guff. your obviously in the wrong scene. Ill never understand why anyone cares weather a image is slightly darker on their card , blah blah all of this IQ stuff is gettign beyond a joke now , Boring Boring Boring Please someone Get a grip and realise that gfx cards are about moving images not static grabs so we can compare pixel shades. Go on flame me , i`m ready but this is totally worthless benchmarking if you ask me. Unless there is a really blatant difference between IQ Why even mention it. A couepl of shades lighter colours are not worth a 1 page article never mind 2 pages , Please find these so called journalists somethign to do before they start comparing Curtains and Ironing board covers. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------> AMD FX51 / 2x OCZ 400 mhz 512MB DDR /ATi Radeon X800pro /19 inch DVI - - - - - - ---------------------------------------------------->

Oct 29, 2003, 10:59 AM	#13
*Veridian3* Administrator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cloaked Posts: 5,028 Rep Power: 182	The worst thing about the Halo optimisation is that the developer mentioned it at Nvidias editors day...but couldnt back it up. What an ass he must feel now. Stu

Oct 31, 2003, 04:27 PM	#16
TonyMonTana I wish i was a tree....... Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: uk..Birmingham Posts: 199 Rep Power: 0	Lmfao