HardOCP comment on the ATI cheating alligations.

***Veridian3*** · Oct 29, 2003, 06:05 PM

An interesting (and spot on) editorial from Kyle over at HardOCP

ATI Responds to Cheating:
At the recent editor's day held by NVIDIA, they informed the media of instances of where ATI was "cheating" in two games and a benchmark based on a game engine. Here is what ATI has to say.

Quote:

We would like to respond to the recent allegations of benchmark cheating levied against ATI.

We take these allegations very seriously and are distressed by the implication that we are cheating our customers. At ATI we have taken a strong stance against application specific optimizations in benchmarks. Further, we never force optimizations that deliver lower image quality than the game developer has intended.

Three applications have been specifically questioned: UT2003, Halo and AquaMark3.

UT2003: We are working with Epic, to address a bug that has a slight impact on the image quality in the game and benchmark in certain situations. This is a known issue that has been recognized by both ATI and Epic as a bug. ATI is not cheating in any way in this application.

Halo: Although allegations of cheating have been made, no one has been able to find any example of decreased image quality in the game. In fact, many examples have been documented on the web where ATI cards and drivers are rendering a superior image to competing products. Again, ATI is not cheating in any way in this application.

AquaMark3: We are currently investigating our rendering in AquaMark3. We have identified that we are rendering an image that is slightly different than the reference rasterizer, but at this point in time we are unable to identify why that is. We believe that this does not have any impact on our performance. Our investigation will continue to identify the cause and resolve it as soon as possible. One point to note is that we render the same image using our latest driver (CATALYST 3.8) as we do with a driver that pre-dates the release of Aquamark3 by almost six months (CATALYST 3.2). Also, in all of our dealings with the developer of Aquamark3, at no point have they advised us that they are unsatisfied with the images that we are rendering. We do not have any application specific optimizations in our driver and we are not cheating in this application.

If you have further questions about the way RADEON graphics cards render in these application we encourage you to contact the game's developers directly.

We are disappointed that certain media outlets chose to perpetuate the allegations, made originally by a competitor, in their articles without an understanding of what was happening and without contacting us for comment.

We are committed to delivering the best gaming experience possible, without sacrificing image quality for increased performance in benchmarks.

Kyles Comments:

If you go back and look at our recent GeForceFX 5950Ultra Preview, you will notice that we covered the two games that are actually referred to above, as for the benchmark put out by the NVIDIA "TWIWMTBP" Partner, we find little reason to evaluate that as we do not use it and you can not play it. After evaluating multiple screenshots of each game and hours of ingame evaluation we saw no difference in UT2K3 that were worth mentioning. We did find that ATI had a better overall image quality in Halo. So if ATI is cheating in Halo, NVIDIA is just doing a bad job rendering the scene. You take your pick of which you would rather have.

NVIDIA has been caught red handed this year cheating. They have admitted this to me in private meetings. Before they stand in front of us and accuse their competition, they owe you and me a public apology. This is not the first time we have said this. Quite frankly, I have seen NVIDIA do some pretty questionable things in the past but this all takes the cake on the hypocrisy-meter.

It is pretty sad when the only way to advance your product is to tear down your competition's. NVIDIA's product is sub-standard when compared to ATI's in the DX9 gaming arena. We know, ATI knows it, and NVIDIA damn sure knows it. NVIDIA needs to concentrate their resources on making a product better than the competition's instead of spreading what we see as FUD to the press who will inevitably regurgitate it to you guys.

NVIDIA should be ashamed of themselves. I know we are ashamed of them.

Cereal Killer · Oct 29, 2003, 06:39 PM

"NVIDIA should be ashamed of themselves. I know we are ashamed of them"

.....had to say it again...

Spyro124 · Oct 29, 2003, 07:14 PM

Quote:

NVIDIA should be ashamed of themselves. I know we are ashamed of them.

Biggest reason they lost me as a customer, I don't buy stuff from a company that cheats, it's sad that when you are the biggest gfx card company that you have to cheat when the competition comes closer.

BiGBrOwNPimpsta · Oct 29, 2003, 07:37 PM

the cards just dont have the impact like the gf2 did. the nv30 was so hyped and it blowed.

i doubt ATi is cheating and im pretty sure they learned their lesson from q3 a few yrs ago and the small 1% cheats a few months ago when nvidia did theirs

tek · Oct 29, 2003, 07:43 PM

Haha, ATI supposedly caught cheating, and still nVidia is being talked down upon.

Gotta love it, lol.

[COLOR=red]fanATIc[/COLOR]

nForcer · Oct 29, 2003, 09:04 PM

bunch of crap if you ask me.

Vengeance · Oct 29, 2003, 09:08 PM

Kyle said that?

**Roadee** · Oct 29, 2003, 10:01 PM

All this really doesn't make a difference.......nVidia has lost a very large customer base......for making a inferior product and trying to hide it under "smoke and mirrors"......or just lack of smoke in some cases!! I really dont see them getting that fan base back with all they have done, though I am not surprised in the least that they are trying to revert attention onto ATI. It is only politics and as they say......all is fair in love and war. I just think that for a company that is so damn intelligent to be able to think up, design, and manufacture such an advanced product in such a short period of time.....that they could think up some better tactics.

This sort of thing happening makes me wonder if nVidia is owned by Intel

There seems to be alot of simularities between the two in the way that they release products and try to play the press against the competitive company. Intel doesn't have anything to compete with the FX-51.....it is on top. The Prescot is getting fired up as being the best CPU ever......and it is getting one delay after the other....one major thing with it is the "heat" problem......

Does this all kinda sound familiar?? I wonder if the Prescott is going to come out with a huge 120mm fan to keep it cool and is louder than the cooling solution that was released on the 5800 Ultra.

This is starting to appear like a repeat and should get very interesting between now and next March!!

Back on the subject......ATI makes an awesome product......I am VERY happy with it as are many other people that made the switch from nVidia to ATI. ATI should put the logo on there box's that say's, "NO CHEATING REQUIRED".........I think that would make the ultimate point, and end the bullshit.

BWX · Oct 29, 2003, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tek
Haha, ATI supposedly caught cheating, ..........

I don't think they were caught at all. There was an accusation made by Nvidia, but I believe there has been evidence that proves they were in fact NOT cheating at all. I've looked at everything I could find, it looks like a driver bug that causes no performance increase at all.

Calinerti · Oct 30, 2003, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vengeance
Kyle said that?

Seems Kyle is pretty unbiased, now. Remember that whole thing at [H] a fw months ago?

Oct 29, 2003, 06:39 PM	#2
Cereal Killer [DH] Catalyst Beta Tester Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Mississauga, Ontario Posts: 248 Rep Power: 0	"NVIDIA should be ashamed of themselves. I know we are ashamed of them" .....had to say it again... __________________ AMD Athlon XP 1700+ @ 2.53GHz (11.5x220 @ 1.95V) Thermalright SP-97 w/ TT SmartFan II Abit NF7-S Rev. 2.0 2x512MB GeIL PC3500 Platinum Dual DDR ATI Radeon 9700 PRO 360GB WD 8MB SATA HDDs RAID 0 Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Sony E500 21" Monitor WinXP Pro SP1

Oct 29, 2003, 07:37 PM	#4
BiGBrOwNPimpsta HH's #1 Hustla and Pimp Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Dirty Dot Posts: 7,717 Rep Power: 107 System Specs	the cards just dont have the impact like the gf2 did. the nv30 was so hyped and it blowed. i doubt ATi is cheating and im pretty sure they learned their lesson from q3 a few yrs ago and the small 1% cheats a few months ago when nvidia did theirs __________________ Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Music \| Logitech Z-5500 THX 5.1 Surround Sound Speakers \| 2 Lite-On 20x S-ATA Burners \| Logitech G700 Mouse \| Logitech MX5500 Bluetooth Keyboard

Oct 29, 2003, 07:43 PM	#5
tek DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Boston, US Posts: 2,103 Rep Power: 0	Haha, ATI supposedly caught cheating, and still nVidia is being talked down upon. Gotta love it, lol. [COLOR=red]fanATIc[/COLOR] __________________ [COLOR=White][/COLOR]

Oct 29, 2003, 09:08 PM	#7
Vengeance DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Fort Worth TX Posts: 643 Rep Power: 0	Kyle said that? __________________ [color=red]Rage3D Super Moderator[/color] [color=red]BFG 6800 GT [/color]

Oct 29, 2003, 10:01 PM	#8
Roadee Never forgotten Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Rest In peace, Joe. Posts: 2,198 Rep Power: 69	All this really doesn't make a difference.......nVidia has lost a very large customer base......for making a inferior product and trying to hide it under "smoke and mirrors"......or just lack of smoke in some cases!! I really dont see them getting that fan base back with all they have done, though I am not surprised in the least that they are trying to revert attention onto ATI. It is only politics and as they say......all is fair in love and war. I just think that for a company that is so damn intelligent to be able to think up, design, and manufacture such an advanced product in such a short period of time.....that they could think up some better tactics. This sort of thing happening makes me wonder if nVidia is owned by Intel There seems to be alot of simularities between the two in the way that they release products and try to play the press against the competitive company. Intel doesn't have anything to compete with the FX-51.....it is on top. The Prescot is getting fired up as being the best CPU ever......and it is getting one delay after the other....one major thing with it is the "heat" problem...... Does this all kinda sound familiar?? I wonder if the Prescott is going to come out with a huge 120mm fan to keep it cool and is louder than the cooling solution that was released on the 5800 Ultra. This is starting to appear like a repeat and should get very interesting between now and next March!! Back on the subject......ATI makes an awesome product......I am VERY happy with it as are many other people that made the switch from nVidia to ATI. ATI should put the logo on there box's that say's, "NO CHEATING REQUIRED".........I think that would make the ultimate point, and end the bullshit. __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse.

Oct 29, 2003, 09:04 PM	#6
nForcer Twice the fun! Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,404 Rep Power: 0	bunch of crap if you ask me.