Online buyers who got the shaft take action

Zardon · Sep 19, 2002, 06:44 PM

By Jon Swartz, USA TODAY

SAN FRANCISCO — Peeved consumers, who claim online auction sites are unresponsive to fraud, are increasingly taking matters into their own hands.

The cyber-vigilantes are filing more police reports, attempting more often to track down merchants on their own and putting up more Web sites to warn others of merchants they say are unscrupulous.

They say they have little choice, because auction sites don't have enough employees to enforce millions of daily transactions.

"We run into people all the time who are using Web sites and chat rooms to warn about merchants," Internet Fraud Complaint Center Chief Tim Healy says. "They feel they have to police the Internet since there are so many scammers online."

One of those cyber-vigilantes was John Rowles, 32, an online marketing consultant in Newport, R.I. "Persistence paid off," he says.

Several months after paying for a laptop that was never delivered, Rowles constructed a Web site, electrodepotsucks.com, to "shame" Electro_Depot of New York into refunding $1,600 for the laptop.

Rowles says eBay, where he bought the laptop, never responded to his repeated complaints. But eBay says it booted Electro_Depot off the site in May because of buyer complaints. In a recent e-mail, Electro_Depot said it was shutting down and had refunded more than $200,000. The financially troubled company claimed it notified eBay of its problems this year.

EBay says it is the responsibility of sellers to communicate with bidders about delays in shipments or financial problems.

full article in the forum

Zardon · Sep 19, 2002, 06:44 PM

Most of the vigilantes' complaints center on eBay, which handles about 85% of online-auction transactions.

"When police come knocking on eBay's door, they do a good job. But as far as playing police officer, they don't," IDC analyst Jonathan Gaw says.

"You go to eBay for good deals and hard-to-get items. But there is an element of risk. They can't stop fraud completely."

How cyber-vigilantes are taking action:

More police. When Marvin Plank ordered a $2,000 guitar on eBay last year and it didn't come, he filed a complaint with police in Tucson, where the merchant, Michael Fauth, lived. Plank, 46, a pawnbroker in Muscatine, Iowa, called eBay but was frustrated because he says it moved too slowly. "They sent a form, and that was it," he says.
Plank searched eBay chat rooms and found two other alleged victims of Fauth's. They presented evidence to police, who arrested Fauth, 21. He pleaded guilty to fraud in March. Fauth was placed on seven years' probation and was ordered to repay his victims.

"If I hadn't done anything, the guy would be $2,000 richer, and I would be $2,000 poorer," Plank says. "You have to be motivated." EBay does not comment on individual cases.

Personal investigation. Dave Metta, 49, security manager at Argonne, Ill., National Laboratory, last year vowed to turn his beef with a guitar seller "into my personal hobby."
For nine months, the former deputy sheriff conducted a personal investigation to recover $3,500. Metta started with a search online to compile information about New York-based merchant Mike Falco. He contacted music dealers in Upstate New York. Then he took out ads on eBay, explaining how Falco allegedly failed to deliver a guitar.

Metta says he also filed a complaint with the FBI's Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC). Falco could not be located for comment. Metta says Falco eventually refunded the money.

"Sure, it was a long haul, but I did this on principle more than anything else," Metta says. "EBay's motto should be 'buyer beware.' "

Online ads. John Carman, 37, a stay-at-home dad in Elmhurst, Ill., this month says he got back $900 shortly after he placed online ads accusing an eBay seller of fraud.
"The guilt card works — if they have any guilt," Carman says. "Still, getting my money back was stressful and time-consuming. I hope eBay understands that." He complained to eBay but says it wasn't responsive. Again, eBay refused to comment on individual cases.

Rowles, Metta and Carman are among the few who recoup losses, law enforcement officials say. Online auction fraud was the most reported offense last year, with 43% of almost 50,000 complaints. And, it is growing along with auction activity, the IFCC says. The average number of monthly auction fraud complaints has risen to 2,377 this year, from 1,779 last year.

EBay, the largest auction site, with $3.1 billion in merchandise sales in the first quarter of 2002, maintains only 0.01% of its listed items result in confirmed fraud. But that's still about 42,200 cases. There were 422 million items listed on eBay last year, and the number of unconfirmed cases would be higher.

The company's first line of defense is its merchant ratings system, which tips buyers and sellers to potential trouble spots.

An eBay user receives a point for each positive comment by another member and no points for a neutral comment. A point is deducted for each negative comment. EBay users also submit descriptive comments, such as "Great deal" or "Don't shop here."

EBay also says it is responsive to complaints. It encourages users to wait 30 days before filing a fraud complaint on its Web site.

The company then forwards the complaint to its internal fraud team. EBay won't say how big that team is, only that it is part of eBay's 500-person customer-service division. The team investigates the backgrounds of buyer and seller and the circumstances of the disputed sale to determine if there is fraud.

If eBay discovers fraud, the seller is barred from the site. EBay won't say how many sellers it ejects annually.

The hard part, however, is tracking down fraudulent sellers and making them refund money. EBay must depend on the FBI and local authorities to prosecute.

"Quite frankly, the process can last anywhere from several weeks to many months," says eBay spokesman Kevin Pursglove. "We kick off merchants every day and make sure they don't get on the site again. But we can't prosecute them or force them to return money. That's up to law enforcement."

But Rowles got his money back within 48 hours of posting his merchant-bashing site. Some 50 unhappy customers of Electro_Depot quickly added their names and comments to the site. He eventually bought a laptop from another auction site, uBid.

"If I hadn't acted, eBay would have done squat," Rowles says.

Dmac43 · Sep 19, 2002, 07:52 PM

I've had issues with Ebay, and Pay Pal in the recent past.
Within a one week period, I was defrauded buy two completely different sellers.
One just disapeared off the face of the earth, the other never responded to emails...
I called my bank and got chargebacks on both sales. When doing this you get an immediate credit to your account until the investigation has finished. Once completed if the bank finds in your favor, you keep the credit. You must have this protection on your accounts prior to purchase...

Since this happened, I heard from both sellers...
One offered to send the merchandise again, I told him fine go ahead (didn't pay him again), and never heard from him again...
The other said (after 3 months of waiting for a reply) that UPS had returned the item (a boxed processor) to him broken... I guess UPS broke all of his processors as not one of the people who won his auctions has received their merchandise...

I have still not heard from EBAY...

Just last week, almost 10 months after the issue, Pay Pal sent me an email admonishing me for taking corrective action, and not going through them (I did, they NEVER responded)

Basically my suggestion for people who buy from auction is use a credit card, and make sure your card is protected against fraud...

skinlab · Sep 20, 2002, 05:13 AM

ive had 2 transactions, both within a week, never had a problem.

which credit card do u use? visa? does it have fraud protection in the basic plan or do they charge extra for it?

Dmac43 · Sep 20, 2002, 03:47 PM

It doesn't matter whether it is Visa, MasterCard, Discover, or whichever, it depends on the bank that the card is drawn on... you just need to check with that bank to ensure that you have the protection. If they don't offer it (most do) I'd suggest finding a different card company.

Dapple · Sep 20, 2002, 11:16 PM

If your are Dumb enough to pass money over the net you will get Stung

Dapple · Sep 20, 2002, 11:19 PM

EBay will never stand up for its customers = you are a number to them they dont care if you are ripped off ,just look at some of their adds just looking around on ebay it is bad enough

Dmac43 · Sep 21, 2002, 12:33 AM

Perhaps you should take your arrogance elsewhere...

***craig5320*** · Sep 21, 2002, 01:20 AM

Dmac43 are you anything to do with Cmac34 ? if not how did you come about your name?

Dmac43 · Sep 21, 2002, 05:21 AM

Nope...
First initial first name
First 3 initials last name
Richard Petty's car number

Dmac has been a nickname since I started playing football inhigh school

Furious · Sep 21, 2002, 06:00 AM

It would seem simple enough to set up a system where Ebay (or someone) would hold the funds until the merchandise was received by the buyer. This could be confirmed by delivery receipts etc. Seems that would protect both parties.

Dmac43 · Sep 22, 2002, 09:08 PM

They do have an escrow system, but there are restrictions on it, and I believe a fee...

Not sure exactly how it works... EBAY was awesome when it started out, most of the sellers were honest... It has become nothing more than a scum hole now...

Sep 19, 2002, 06:44 PM	#1
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 177	Online buyers who got the shaft take action By Jon Swartz, USA TODAY SAN FRANCISCO — Peeved consumers, who claim online auction sites are unresponsive to fraud, are increasingly taking matters into their own hands. The cyber-vigilantes are filing more police reports, attempting more often to track down merchants on their own and putting up more Web sites to warn others of merchants they say are unscrupulous. They say they have little choice, because auction sites don't have enough employees to enforce millions of daily transactions. "We run into people all the time who are using Web sites and chat rooms to warn about merchants," Internet Fraud Complaint Center Chief Tim Healy says. "They feel they have to police the Internet since there are so many scammers online." One of those cyber-vigilantes was John Rowles, 32, an online marketing consultant in Newport, R.I. "Persistence paid off," he says. Several months after paying for a laptop that was never delivered, Rowles constructed a Web site, electrodepotsucks.com, to "shame" Electro_Depot of New York into refunding $1,600 for the laptop. Rowles says eBay, where he bought the laptop, never responded to his repeated complaints. But eBay says it booted Electro_Depot off the site in May because of buyer complaints. In a recent e-mail, Electro_Depot said it was shutting down and had refunded more than $200,000. The financially troubled company claimed it notified eBay of its problems this year. EBay says it is the responsibility of sellers to communicate with bidders about delays in shipments or financial problems. full article in the forum

Sep 20, 2002, 05:13 AM	#4
skinlab Got Satan? Join Date: May 2002 Location: was in Canada, now in UAE Posts: 286 Rep Power: 0	ive had 2 transactions, both within a week, never had a problem. which credit card do u use? visa? does it have fraud protection in the basic plan or do they charge extra for it? __________________ Religion is the opiate of the masses - Marx God is dead - Nietzsche X-pider2 + Enermax 465 / P4P800-DX / 2.6C@3.25 / 1GIG XMS 4000PT/ R9800PRO / Audigy2 ZS / 80gig WD SE + 160gig Maxtor SE + 200gig Maxtor PS3100 External / Plextor Premium + BenQ DW1640 / other stuff

Sep 21, 2002, 01:20 AM	#9
*craig5320* HH Administrator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 8,282 Rep Power: 428 System Specs	Dmac43 are you anything to do with Cmac34 ? if not how did you come about your name? __________________

Sep 21, 2002, 06:00 AM	#11
Furious I'm blind not deaf!! Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 260 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	It would seem simple enough to set up a system where Ebay (or someone) would hold the funds until the merchandise was received by the buyer. This could be confirmed by delivery receipts etc. Seems that would protect both parties. __________________

Sep 19, 2002, 06:44 PM	Thread Starter #2
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 177	Most of the vigilantes' complaints center on eBay, which handles about 85% of online-auction transactions. "When police come knocking on eBay's door, they do a good job. But as far as playing police officer, they don't," IDC analyst Jonathan Gaw says. "You go to eBay for good deals and hard-to-get items. But there is an element of risk. They can't stop fraud completely." How cyber-vigilantes are taking action: More police. When Marvin Plank ordered a $2,000 guitar on eBay last year and it didn't come, he filed a complaint with police in Tucson, where the merchant, Michael Fauth, lived. Plank, 46, a pawnbroker in Muscatine, Iowa, called eBay but was frustrated because he says it moved too slowly. "They sent a form, and that was it," he says. Plank searched eBay chat rooms and found two other alleged victims of Fauth's. They presented evidence to police, who arrested Fauth, 21. He pleaded guilty to fraud in March. Fauth was placed on seven years' probation and was ordered to repay his victims. "If I hadn't done anything, the guy would be $2,000 richer, and I would be $2,000 poorer," Plank says. "You have to be motivated." EBay does not comment on individual cases. Personal investigation. Dave Metta, 49, security manager at Argonne, Ill., National Laboratory, last year vowed to turn his beef with a guitar seller "into my personal hobby." For nine months, the former deputy sheriff conducted a personal investigation to recover $3,500. Metta started with a search online to compile information about New York-based merchant Mike Falco. He contacted music dealers in Upstate New York. Then he took out ads on eBay, explaining how Falco allegedly failed to deliver a guitar. Metta says he also filed a complaint with the FBI's Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC). Falco could not be located for comment. Metta says Falco eventually refunded the money. "Sure, it was a long haul, but I did this on principle more than anything else," Metta says. "EBay's motto should be 'buyer beware.' " Online ads. John Carman, 37, a stay-at-home dad in Elmhurst, Ill., this month says he got back $900 shortly after he placed online ads accusing an eBay seller of fraud. "The guilt card works — if they have any guilt," Carman says. "Still, getting my money back was stressful and time-consuming. I hope eBay understands that." He complained to eBay but says it wasn't responsive. Again, eBay refused to comment on individual cases. Rowles, Metta and Carman are among the few who recoup losses, law enforcement officials say. Online auction fraud was the most reported offense last year, with 43% of almost 50,000 complaints. And, it is growing along with auction activity, the IFCC says. The average number of monthly auction fraud complaints has risen to 2,377 this year, from 1,779 last year. EBay, the largest auction site, with $3.1 billion in merchandise sales in the first quarter of 2002, maintains only 0.01% of its listed items result in confirmed fraud. But that's still about 42,200 cases. There were 422 million items listed on eBay last year, and the number of unconfirmed cases would be higher. The company's first line of defense is its merchant ratings system, which tips buyers and sellers to potential trouble spots. An eBay user receives a point for each positive comment by another member and no points for a neutral comment. A point is deducted for each negative comment. EBay users also submit descriptive comments, such as "Great deal" or "Don't shop here." EBay also says it is responsive to complaints. It encourages users to wait 30 days before filing a fraud complaint on its Web site. The company then forwards the complaint to its internal fraud team. EBay won't say how big that team is, only that it is part of eBay's 500-person customer-service division. The team investigates the backgrounds of buyer and seller and the circumstances of the disputed sale to determine if there is fraud. If eBay discovers fraud, the seller is barred from the site. EBay won't say how many sellers it ejects annually. The hard part, however, is tracking down fraudulent sellers and making them refund money. EBay must depend on the FBI and local authorities to prosecute. "Quite frankly, the process can last anywhere from several weeks to many months," says eBay spokesman Kevin Pursglove. "We kick off merchants every day and make sure they don't get on the site again. But we can't prosecute them or force them to return money. That's up to law enforcement." But Rowles got his money back within 48 hours of posting his merchant-bashing site. Some 50 unhappy customers of Electro_Depot quickly added their names and comments to the site. He eventually bought a laptop from another auction site, uBid. "If I hadn't acted, eBay would have done squat," Rowles says.

Sep 19, 2002, 07:52 PM	#3
Dmac43 HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: May 2002 Location: FLA USA Posts: 125 Rep Power: 0	I've had issues with Ebay, and Pay Pal in the recent past. Within a one week period, I was defrauded buy two completely different sellers. One just disapeared off the face of the earth, the other never responded to emails... I called my bank and got chargebacks on both sales. When doing this you get an immediate credit to your account until the investigation has finished. Once completed if the bank finds in your favor, you keep the credit. You must have this protection on your accounts prior to purchase... Since this happened, I heard from both sellers... One offered to send the merchandise again, I told him fine go ahead (didn't pay him again), and never heard from him again... The other said (after 3 months of waiting for a reply) that UPS had returned the item (a boxed processor) to him broken... I guess UPS broke all of his processors as not one of the people who won his auctions has received their merchandise... I have still not heard from EBAY... Just last week, almost 10 months after the issue, Pay Pal sent me an email admonishing me for taking corrective action, and not going through them (I did, they NEVER responded) Basically my suggestion for people who buy from auction is use a credit card, and make sure your card is protected against fraud...

Sep 20, 2002, 03:47 PM	#5
Dmac43 HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: May 2002 Location: FLA USA Posts: 125 Rep Power: 0	It doesn't matter whether it is Visa, MasterCard, Discover, or whichever, it depends on the bank that the card is drawn on... you just need to check with that bank to ensure that you have the protection. If they don't offer it (most do) I'd suggest finding a different card company.

Sep 20, 2002, 11:16 PM	#6
Dapple DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 16 Rep Power: 0	If your are Dumb enough to pass money over the net you will get Stung

Sep 20, 2002, 11:19 PM	#7
Dapple DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 16 Rep Power: 0	EBay will never stand up for its customers = you are a number to them they dont care if you are ripped off ,just look at some of their adds just looking around on ebay it is bad enough

Sep 21, 2002, 12:33 AM	#8
Dmac43 HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: May 2002 Location: FLA USA Posts: 125 Rep Power: 0	Perhaps you should take your arrogance elsewhere...

Sep 21, 2002, 05:21 AM	#10
Dmac43 HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: May 2002 Location: FLA USA Posts: 125 Rep Power: 0	Nope... First initial first name First 3 initials last name Richard Petty's car number Dmac has been a nickname since I started playing football inhigh school

Sep 22, 2002, 09:08 PM	#12
Dmac43 HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: May 2002 Location: FLA USA Posts: 125 Rep Power: 0	They do have an escrow system, but there are restrictions on it, and I believe a fee... Not sure exactly how it works... EBAY was awesome when it started out, most of the sellers were honest... It has become nothing more than a scum hole now...