Zardon

According to the In-Stat/MDR Processor Watch bulletin, AMD couldn't have taken the leading position in the X86 market without third party chip set suppliers - notably Via and Nvidia. That's because, the bulletin says, when platforms change at AMD, it supplies chipsets with little more than rudimentary functions. And the bulletin thinks current AMD management has much to thank ex-CEO Jerry Sanders for too. If he hadn't decided to throw out other product lines, by sacrificing profitable and unprofitable businesses, AMD wouldn't be where it is today.

inquirer

Zardon

I was waiting for your post. you can almost guarantee now, if there is an nvidia or intel based thread you will have a comment.....

HawK

Funny but I do think Neon is right..
Intel & NV are still in business thanks to large company's like Dell & a huge "noobish "You need to have intel&NVidia" support..
Cause lets face it; they both made quit a mesh of it in the last few years

Zardon

Getting away a little from this thread subject I think all companies go through rough patches, to totally dismiss a company like nvidia when they are producing wonderful cards such as the 6800 series just seems rather silly to me. And personally I think the EE processors are the best out there.

HawK

sorry for the OT
Yeah well thats maybe so for their top products, but looking at the whole line of product that is not the case, to me it is silly to pay big bucks for a product just because their name is Big in computerland
they can patch all they want, but in the "core" it still is age old tech, and maybe time for them to buy up another company and "steal" their tech, as AMD did with the K.x core, if they are not able to produce something new on their own IMHO

Zardon

I agree intel have lost their way a little but my point was that all companies have bad stages in production and development, from ATI to AMD. personally I think the sempron is a waste of time, but thats my personal opinion on it.

Look at nvidia now, everyone wrote them off last year, right? the 6800GT is probably the best value card on the market right now.

My point is, all companies have ups and downs, most of the big ones can ride it out, like nvidia, amd, ati, intel.

This coming year will be the big test I think - alot going to be happening on the PCIe front, those who blindly follow one company are only fooling themselves.

HawK

Agree with the Sempron, except for the 64bitversion , I think it is an nice bridge for some to step in the 64b systems
it is indeed a good card but how many will (based on the good name of the 6800) buy a lesser one ?? if I look at ATI's budged line most of them do have the >r300 full DX9core..
Yes; but how they ride those lesser times is what will be remembered by many, hence the Intel has done a good job for AMD
It will !! very interesting times indeed

HawK

Damn never mind the Sempron remark, thought about it when writing, but my toast was testing the fire alarm, and forgot...
AMD is now doing what intel has started a few years back, changing the socket with every proc. version, main AMD growth has come IMO from the many years sticking to one type of Socket products...

dipstick

Well it’s no surprise really. Intel has always been dominant force in cpus since as far as I can remember, it no wonder they came up with everything first. Did they underestimate AMD with their A64's? Hell yes they did. Today they are the better cpu IMO, big time in gaming. Did MS kick intel in the balls? Nope. They had it coming IMO, why should MS make a new OS just for Intel?. Also I have to say you can't steal ideas from cpus, they are free to use each others tech as they see fit, its 100% legal. AMD has done it countless of times and now Intel has been forced to do it for the first time ever. Is nVIdia a bad company? No way. They make the best AMD chipsets and their new gfx cards are overall better than ATi's IMO, hardware-wise at least.

No_Style

I've always found Intel products to be far superior than AMD ones. But times are changing and AMD is learning. After AMD's introduction of A64 with Thermal Throttling, heat plate to COVER the core, cooler operation and a somewhat better stock cooling.. I've found their processors to be on par with Intel's now. I'm sorry, but to me performance isn't everything.. it's all around quality of a product.

AMD owes a lot to Intel. If Intel didn't do the cross licensing agreement way back then. AMD wouldn't be here today. And now AMD is giving back to Intel whether Intel likes it or not

As for Intel of the last few years? Err.. The "C" series of Northwoods not only destroyed the Athlon XP line, but Intel also released the awesome 865/875 chipsets as well. The only real "issue" for them is the 90 nm Prescott, but they're taming that heat beast.

I don't think any company screws up or goes through rough patches for a long time..
If you look carefully at the Big 4 companies (ATI, nVidia, Intel, AMD).. they all help each other out.

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dipstick

I dont know what to say Neon, you just seem to think nVidia just cheats and there is nothing anyone of us can say to even come close to changing you opinion so we'll leave that at that. But how do say they even cheat on the mobo chipsets? How can software raid and lan use almost no cpu time? I mean even less than the so called hardware raid setups? You got to let go of this way of thought man, you are only hurting yourself.

No_Style

Let's keep this on topic people. This isn't about "Intel vs AMD", "ATI vs nVidia" or "Neon vs nVidia"..

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WaltC

It's amusing to read sentiment of this type--that AMD "owes" something to Intel... Back in the mid 90's Intel's policy of dumping Celerons into the low-end value cpu market in huge quantities near, at, or below cost, a policy subsidized by Intel's windfall profits in the high-end x86-cpu markets where Intel had no competition for years (who could forget the era of 500MHz P3's selling for $1200 a pop in 1K quantities, etc.?), were policies that almost drove AMD out of business. In 1998 many tech analysts were singing a swan song for AMD, and predicting the company's imminent demise.

In 1999, AMD leapfrogs Intel with the K7, the first time in which AMD had ever competed directly with Intel in the high-end x86 cpu market segment. In 1999, AMD's train finally left the station--and it was because of the K7, in which Intel's involvement was absolutely zero. In fact, since 1999 Intel has embarked on several vigorous policies designed to crush AMD and remove them from the scene--such as lawsuits over x86, lawsuits with AMD chipset makers like VIA and others, direct pressure applied to motherboard makers to delay their AMD-supporting products, etc. ad infinitum.

All of Intel's efforts failed, and the result was a cross-licensing agreement between the two companies--of which x86-64 is a part, along with an agreement between the companies not to sue each other in the future. The only thing Intel left off the table was a P4 bus license, which Sanders himself said was irrelevant because AMD didn't want or need it, and had never asked for it in the first place. In fact, when Intel recently announced it had changed its mind about x86-64, AMD issued a press release "welcoming" Intel into the wonderful world of x86-64... Intel lost yet another one there, as well. No one should make the mistake of thinking that AMD would still be around if there'd been no K7 & K8. Intel had nothing to do with either.

Today, very much unlike the case in 1999, AMD has one FAB up and running and a second under construction and is in the black and gaining marketshare. This is despite Intel, not because of them. The fellow who wrote this little piece of revisionist editorial opinion for MDR Processor Watch (and it is an editorial, btw, not an attempt to document history) apparently never knew that AMD announced its x86-64 plan for K8 years before it shipped the first Opteron. Intel saw it coming in plenty of time to offer competitive products, but elected not to do so. Why?

Very simple... Intel hates competition. It's a company which pines for the old monopoly days it enjoyed pre-k7. If it could somehow persuade the markets to abandon x86 and adopt a new proprietary architecture like Itanium, Intel could return to the halcyon days when it ruled undisputed, and it could milk, milk, milk to its heart's content. Intel would dearly love to get back to that position, and that's why it's been so slow to compete with AMD in x86-64 and it has pushed Itanium so hard for the last 3-4 years even though it's plain the market isn't interested in Itanium because it's far too expensive and far too late. If the markets would drop x86 and "transition" to Itanium then Intel would be rid of AMD eventually--and that's the goal. Fortunately, even Intel is realizing that its halcyon days are behind it and not ahead.

If not for AMD's competitive emergence in 1999, I have no doubt that the $100 2GHz x86 cpu would be non-existent today. If we'd even have reached 2GHz speeds from an Intel monopoly by now we'd probably be paying 12x as much for the privilege... When offered compatible, competitive cpus at decent prices versus proprietary, x86-incompatible Intel cpus at ridiculous prices, the market is going to go to what is practical and economical.

Superficially, it might appear that AMD "owes" something to Intel. After all, when Intel changes course to follow AMD as it did over x86-64, that certainly lends credence to AMD's innovation. But the fact is that AMD is succeeding with A64 primarily because the A64 is a fantastic, uber-practical 32/64-bit cpu with a standard endorsed by Microsoft, and Intel simply had, and has, nothing to match it, although it might well have been able to match it had it not been obsessed with its Itanium fantasy. Intel knows that the market will choose A64's x86-64 implementation over Itanium over the difference in sheer price between the hardware and software involved, if for no other reason. My take is that AMD has succeeded despite every conceivable effort of Intel's designed to see them fail over the years--certainly AMD's success to date is wholly earned. IMO, of course.

The MDR editorial is so lame because it implies that Intel's been loaning AMD money, providing helpful advice and assistance, aiding them in cpu design, making it easy for them to compete wherever they wish, and etc., which of course is ridiculous and certainly absurd, as Intel has done no such thing... Intel's sentiment expressed toward AMD since the start has clearly been one of an Intel preference that AMD not exist. That's my opinion, anyway...

Zardon

thats the problem every thread with nvidia in it (and even now threads that dont have nvidia in it), turns into a neon bashing thread, and it wont continue, I remember when it was ATI and that was unpleasant enough.

neon check your pm.

No_Style

Nicely written, WaltC. Every post you've written, which I've seen, has been top notch.

I don't think any company likes competition, though.

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EcPercy

Holy crap batman.. that's got to be the best response to any post I have ever seen! Nice work!

Necrosis

I think Walt has to be a writer for some PC magazine or something.

P.S. One of the fastest setups I've ever owned was the socket 7 MB /w a Intel chipset (can't remember model) matched /w a K6 300MHz processor (not K6-2). Stability, and that thing just screamed.

jsx[ifl]

ya...thats a quote by me from another thread. glad someone else has noticed the bashing.

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Shadow Lady

if u think about this, there would have never been a Pentium EE processor if AMD wouldnt have released the A64 proccessors.

Its all good to have a good competition, i swear if u ask in colombia about processors normal people does know Intel, but have no idea what is AMD, is a little unfair i think, and there yet AMD is in a very good place over the world, im happy about it.

But they stating this, i dont like it -.-

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Oblivion ftw

Necrosis

Colombia isn't the only place like that...it's like that all over.