Programming Jobs Losing Luster in U.S.

Iria · Jun 20, 2005, 06:02 AM

As an eager freshman in the fall of 2001, Andrew Mo's career trajectory seemed preordained: He'd learn C++ and Java languages while earning a computer science degree at Stanford University, then land a Silicon Valley technology job.

The 22-year-old Shanghai native graduated this month with a major in computer science and a minor in economics. But he no longer plans to write code for a living, or even work at a tech company.

Mo begins work in the fall as a management consultant with The Boston Consulting Group, helping to lead projects at multinational companies. Consulting, he says, will insulate him from the offshore outsourcing that's sending thousands of once-desirable computer programming jobs overseas.

More important, Mo believes his consulting gig is more lucrative, rewarding and imaginative than a traditional tech job. He characterized his summer programming internships as "too focused or localized, even meaningless."

"A consulting job injects you into companies at a higher level," he said. "You don't feel like you're doing basic stuff."

Mo's decision to reboot his nascent career reflects a subtle but potentially significant industry shift. As tens of thousands of engineering jobs migrate to developing countries, many new entrants into the U.S. work force see info tech jobs as monotonous, uncreative and easily farmed out - the equivalent of 1980s manufacturing jobs.

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Read More / Source: Forbes.com

ericdrum · Jun 20, 2005, 04:44 PM

I don't get it. I'm a software engineer for a living and I'm having to turn down opportunities all over the place. In fact I'm starting a new job next month. Here's the other thing, if you are a grad from freaking Stanford, the type of job you are going to get as a programmer is not the type of stuff that is outsourced. At least at the two companies I have worked for since school haven't used offshore resources for that kind of stuff. They'd use those resources for busy heads down work. A CS major from Stanford can look to get a big salary in a more demanding position right off the back. The problem IMO is Silicon valley. Too many rats and not enough cheese to go around.

Here's one more nugget to think on, when I worked for the giant Siemens as a software engineer, they tried outsourcing a lot of stuff to India. We found out very quickly that it was only mildly successful. Our division was in the U.S. and communicating with them just didn't work because of the time changes. With the lack of real communication, the code we always got back wasn't to spec and most of the time didn't work. I think companies will give their shot at outsourcing, but a lot will come back around to just having in house people.

Iria · Jun 20, 2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericdrum

I don't get it. I'm a software engineer for a living and I'm having to turn down opportunities all over the place. In fact I'm starting a new job next month. Here's the other thing, if you are a grad from freaking Stanford, the type of job you are going to get as a programmer is not the type of stuff that is outsourced. At least at the two companies I have worked for since school haven't used offshore resources for that kind of stuff. They'd use those resources for busy heads down work. A CS major from Stanford can look to get a big salary in a more demanding position right off the back. The problem IMO is Silicon valley. Too many rats and not enough cheese to go around.

Here's one more nugget to think on, when I worked for the giant Siemens as a software engineer, they tried outsourcing a lot of stuff to India. We found out very quickly that it was only mildly successful. Our division was in the U.S. and communicating with them just didn't work because of the time changes. With the lack of real communication, the code we always got back wasn't to spec and most of the time didn't work. I think companies will give their shot at outsourcing, but a lot will come back around to just having in house people.

Depends on the company, I think. Take a look at the jobs list at Adobe or Oracle. Most of them are in Bangalore or Mumbai. I know many companies ONLY hiring in India. If someone in the US leaves, their job is outsourced if it cannot be, someone in the US moves out of an "outsourceable" job to that position, and the other position is filled in India. I know this from personal experience.

I have friends at Oracle who go to India all the time to train people.

A lot of companies think quantity will outweigh quality. A lot of the work I've seen is substandard, or policies are not followed, deadlines not met. Same with my friends. But the labor is SO cheap.

Personally if I were starting over I'd look for a field that needs face-to-face interaction, like a doctor (not radiology!), psychology, law (not corporate, though ... I'd like criminal law), police (love to be a detective), stuff like that.

I'd also look for a job that might carry a pension (not corporate, though). Police work carries a nice pension. My wife is going to get her PsyD soon. I hear the CIA is hiring clinical psychologists!

ericdrum · Jun 20, 2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msanto

Depends on the company, I think. Take a look at the jobs list at Adobe or Oracle. Most of them are in Bangalore or Mumbai. I know many companies ONLY hiring in India. If someone in the US leaves, their job is outsourced if it cannot be, someone in the US moves out of an "outsourceable" job to that position, and the other position is filled in India. I know this from personal experience.

I have friends at Oracle who go to India all the time to train people.

A lot of companies think quantity will outweigh quality. A lot of the work I've seen is substandard, or policies are not followed, deadlines not met. Same with my friends. But the labor is SO cheap.

Personally if I were starting over I'd look for a field that needs face-to-face interaction, like a doctor (not radiology!), psychology, law (not corporate, though ... I'd like criminal law), police (love to be a detective), stuff like that.

I'd also look for a job that might carry a pension (not corporate, though). Police work carries a nice pension. My wife is going to get her PsyD soon. I hear the CIA is hiring clinical psychologists!

Yeah, I currently have a state job with a good pension. My next job has a pension, but not quite as good. In the long run though, I'll make more and be able to subsidize my retirement myself. I'm still only 30, so I have some time. This job I'm taking should be nice. Lots of stability and all the guys I work with are gamers.

The whole outsourcing thing is quite a mixed bag. If it can be done successfully, it's a good thing. Some companies will try and simply retain the profits gained from outsourcing, but the smart and competitive ones will re-invest that money in other areas and dust the competititon. It's hard because it puts people like me out of work. But I think outsourcing done successfully will benefit the greater market.

2 buddies of mine are cops both with the same department. While you don't earn a boat load of money, they both can retire after 20 years. In our state, they get 2 percent of your final salary for each year you work. So if you are a cop for 30 years, you can have 60% of your final salary for the rest of your life. Not bad.

YAYitsAndrew · Jun 20, 2005, 06:16 PM

That's unfortunate that he's had so many terrible summer internships. I've loved my two most recent (I even got hired part time while I was taking classes and now I'm back full time for the summer). While my dream is still to work into the game industry from a tools angle, I like what I'm doing here.

edit: As for outsourcing, I believe that as long as you're not reimplementing the wheel you'll always have a job. It's like creating clothing. The process became so trivial that the quality of laborer needed to do satisfactory work decreased. That doesn't mean there's not people trying to synthesize newer and better fabrics everyday for those workers to turn into clothing.

There's always the indy angle, too. Computers are young enough where a bunch of guys can have a good idea and a startup and wait to be bought out by a big boy.

Jun 20, 2005, 06:02 AM	#1
Iria DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 7,275 Rep Power: 87	Programming Jobs Losing Luster in U.S. As an eager freshman in the fall of 2001, Andrew Mo's career trajectory seemed preordained: He'd learn C++ and Java languages while earning a computer science degree at Stanford University, then land a Silicon Valley technology job. The 22-year-old Shanghai native graduated this month with a major in computer science and a minor in economics. But he no longer plans to write code for a living, or even work at a tech company. Mo begins work in the fall as a management consultant with The Boston Consulting Group, helping to lead projects at multinational companies. Consulting, he says, will insulate him from the offshore outsourcing that's sending thousands of once-desirable computer programming jobs overseas. More important, Mo believes his consulting gig is more lucrative, rewarding and imaginative than a traditional tech job. He characterized his summer programming internships as "too focused or localized, even meaningless." "A consulting job injects you into companies at a higher level," he said. "You don't feel like you're doing basic stuff." Mo's decision to reboot his nascent career reflects a subtle but potentially significant industry shift. As tens of thousands of engineering jobs migrate to developing countries, many new entrants into the U.S. work force see info tech jobs as monotonous, uncreative and easily farmed out - the equivalent of 1980s manufacturing jobs. __________ Read More / Source: Forbes.com

Jun 20, 2005, 04:44 PM	#2
ericdrum DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The SLC Posts: 149 Rep Power: 0	I don't get it. I'm a software engineer for a living and I'm having to turn down opportunities all over the place. In fact I'm starting a new job next month. Here's the other thing, if you are a grad from freaking Stanford, the type of job you are going to get as a programmer is not the type of stuff that is outsourced. At least at the two companies I have worked for since school haven't used offshore resources for that kind of stuff. They'd use those resources for busy heads down work. A CS major from Stanford can look to get a big salary in a more demanding position right off the back. The problem IMO is Silicon valley. Too many rats and not enough cheese to go around. Here's one more nugget to think on, when I worked for the giant Siemens as a software engineer, they tried outsourcing a lot of stuff to India. We found out very quickly that it was only mildly successful. Our division was in the U.S. and communicating with them just didn't work because of the time changes. With the lack of real communication, the code we always got back wasn't to spec and most of the time didn't work. I think companies will give their shot at outsourcing, but a lot will come back around to just having in house people. __________________ AMD Athlon 64 3500+ MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum nForce3 Ultra 2 gig Corsair XMS 3200 eVGA 6800 GT SB Audigy2 w/ KX Project Drivers 2-80 gig Western Digital SATA 7200 RAID 0 200 GB Seagate Barricuda 7200 for Storage Ultra Xconnect 500W Power Supply Windows XP SP2 Antec P160W case

Jun 20, 2005, 06:16 PM	#5
YAYitsAndrew Anti-Piracy Poster Boy Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 2,605 Rep Power: 77 System Specs	That's unfortunate that he's had so many terrible summer internships. I've loved my two most recent (I even got hired part time while I was taking classes and now I'm back full time for the summer). While my dream is still to work into the game industry from a tools angle, I like what I'm doing here. edit: As for outsourcing, I believe that as long as you're not reimplementing the wheel you'll always have a job. It's like creating clothing. The process became so trivial that the quality of laborer needed to do satisfactory work decreased. That doesn't mean there's not people trying to synthesize newer and better fabrics everyday for those workers to turn into clothing. There's always the indy angle, too. Computers are young enough where a bunch of guys can have a good idea and a startup and wait to be bought out by a big boy. __________________ "It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters." - Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason! www.yayitsandrew.com