Serious CrossFire Limitation

Vikingod · Sep 16, 2005, 01:49 PM

Earlier today I was given information regarding ATI’s upcoming Crossfire technology that, at first, I passed off as so ridiculous it couldn’t possibly be true. However, after having the information verified from several very reputable sources I’ve decided it would be a disservice to keep this information private.

As many are aware by now, ATI’s Crossfire technology uses an external link to connect the Master and Slave cards together (it's sort of like a 3-headed dongle with DVI connectors at the ends). What’s not generally known is that the backbone for this setup is a Silicon Image SiL 1161 chip which is installed on the X8-series Master cards. The SiL 1161 is there to receive output passed over the external link from the Slave card in the Crossfire setup and pass it on to the Master card.
__________
Read More / Source: Rage3D

BWX · Sep 16, 2005, 03:35 PM

Wht the hell!?!? That is screwed up.. Nvidia wins again?

Sandok · Sep 16, 2005, 03:45 PM

If it's true... Yes

Asmoday · Sep 16, 2005, 03:49 PM

I really hope that that isn't true....I mean wtf? Who would pay serious money and not being able to play at higher resolutions then 16x12 and at a worthless 60hz?
Maybe it doesn't affect people with better lcd's like the Dell 2001fp, but how many have one of those...

BWX · Sep 16, 2005, 03:50 PM

What is ATI thinking? Limited to 1600 x 1200 @ 60HZ??

That is just ridiculous if it is true.. Someone over there making these decisions needs to lose their job if this is all true.

Sandok · Sep 16, 2005, 03:57 PM

But 60HZ isn't THAT bad is it? Comon, I'm stuck a 1280x1024 @ 60

deekey777 · Sep 16, 2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWX

What is ATI thinking? Limited to 1600 x 1200 @ 60HZ??

That is just ridiculous if it is true.. Someone over there making these decisions needs to lose their job if this is all true.

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/amd-graphics-cards/84996-serious-crossfire-limitation.html

But you know, how CrossFire works?

Iria · Sep 16, 2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asmoday

I really hope that that isn't true....I mean wtf? Who would pay serious money and not being able to play at higher resolutions then 16x12 and at a worthless 60hz?
Maybe it doesn't affect people with better lcd's like the Dell 2001fp, but how many have one of those...

I thought the price on these had come waaaay down. Well, considering. They're like 562 right now at Dell (sale), list 749 ... I remember when they were 750 or so on eBay and 1000 list.

daedal · Sep 16, 2005, 04:05 PM

*Claps hands sarcastically*
Doesn't really affect me considering my LCD only goes up to 1280x1024 but still. That's horrible new.

Killer_uk · Sep 16, 2005, 04:27 PM

It just might be true according to this article (I know its the inquirer but it has screenshots) :

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26228

But, I suppose until we have an official word from ATI.....

deekey777 · Sep 16, 2005, 07:09 PM

ATI's Crossfire Limitation- Mountains Out of Molehills

Joshua Walrath over at Penstar Systems decided to post an editorial on ATI's Crossfire implitation after questions of limitations with the spec have come to light:

Rage3D really broke the news on the possible limitations of the Silicon Image Sil 1161 receiver that ATI's CrossFire utilized. The receiver can handle a max of 1600x1200 at 60 Hz (or essentially receive 60 1600x1200 frames per second), and runs at a maximum of 165 MHz. At first this limitation looks like a huge disaster waiting to happen to ATI with the release of CrossFire, and many are screaming that the engineers fell down on the job and should all be sacked. When I was first given this information, I originally thought that ATI had made a big blunder... but upon further investigation I believe that it really isn't that big of a limitation at all.

ATI's Crossfire Limitation- Mountains Out of Molehills - Josh

Read it and relax: Have no fear and drink a beer.

brutusmaximus · Sep 16, 2005, 08:14 PM

It cant be just me in thinking that Rage3d are losing direction lately, first we get a few 7800 reviews which not really very complimentary to ATI at all, but we get ratchet bitching in the forums about how ati suck and how they dont do this, blah blah blah. Just seems to me that he has an issue with ATI atm. That and the fact he seems to be overly appeasing Nvidia, who im sure are loving all this PR. Hope he gets to keep the hardware as he said in R3D forums, if he doesnt it will be quite funny.

Its just a negative PR fluff article set to appease Nvidia more, i wouldnt hold much stock in it. Rage3d has gone down the tubes long ago, part of the reason i moved over here, better modding, better articles and a more relaxed atmosphere.

SFOSOK · Sep 16, 2005, 08:23 PM

The thing is with limits like that they have no chance for a large future market with Crossifre. I feel bad for ATI, they seem to be digging their own grave : (. 60hz is very hard on the eyes at times also.

md5 · Sep 16, 2005, 09:42 PM

Here is some extra information:

Quote:

First off the Sil 1161 receiver simply receives the pixel data from the slave board. That data is sent to the compositing engine, which then takes the final frame/s and sends it to either its built in TMDS transmitter or the RAMDAC, both of which can handle 2048x1536 @ 85 Hz. The Sil 1161 has NOTHING to do with the refresh rate of the screen that is connected to the master card. So, at the very least, CrossFire users can enjoy refresh rates on CRT monitors greater than 60 Hz at resolutions above 1600x1200 because that is based on the transmitters on the master card, which are essentially identical to every other standalone, high-end ATI card. You can find the refresh/pixel specs here.

BWX · Sep 17, 2005, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Now, things do change around a bit when using alternating frames. At 1920x1200 the receiver can handle a maximum of 50 fps (1920x1200 at 50 Hz, assuming the Sil chip can be programmed as such). At 2048x1536 the maximum rate is 37 fps (2048x1536 at 37 Hz). In alternating frame mode the CrossFire solution will have a max FPS of 100 when used at 1920, or a max FPS of 75 when used with 2048. We are essentially just dealing with bandwidth, as the pixel information transmitted basically contains color information (RGB) and location (clock). As such, the ways with dealing with this information can be pretty flexible. This of course assumes that the Sil 1161 is running at 165 MHz all the time.

http://www.penstarsys.com/#xfire_sil

Still it seems ATI may have put a huge limiting factor on crossfire... especially when it comes to benchmarking.. when the program measures very high framerates especially. Hopefully it's all a bunch of bull and they have figured out a way around it or will use a different faster chip or something.

amdking · Sep 17, 2005, 04:25 AM

for all the people complaining about 60hz go buy an LCD =)

BWX · Sep 17, 2005, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amdking

for all the people complaining about 60hz go buy an LCD =)

Quote:

The Sil 1161 has NOTHING to do with the refresh rate of the screen that is connected to the master card. So, at the very least, CrossFire users can enjoy refresh rates on CRT monitors greater than 60 Hz at resolutions above 1600x1200 because that is based on the transmitters on the master card, which are essentially identical to every other standalone, high-end ATI card. You can find the refresh/pixel specs here.

Then again he points to a page that lists 2D display modes.

http://www.ati.com/products/radeonx850/specs.html

2D DISPLAY MODES
Resolutions, colors and maximum refresh rates (Hz) in 256, 65K or 16.7M colors

Monitor Resolution - Hz

640x480 - 200
800x600 - 200
1024x768 - 200
1152x864 - 200
1280x1024 - 160
1600x1200 - 120
1920x1080** 16:9 - 120
1920x1200 - 100
1920x1440 - 90
2048x1536 - 85

Basically nobody seems to know anything for sure.

deekey777 · Sep 17, 2005, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWX

http://www.penstarsys.com/#xfire_sil

Still it seems ATI may have put a huge limiting factor on crossfire... especially when it comes to benchmarking.. when the program measures very high framerates especially. Hopefully it's all a bunch of bull and they have figured out a way around it or will use a different faster chip or something.

The Supertiling mode is ATi's favourite child: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpo...8&postcount=99
"As for the compositing device - the graphics chips themselves can actually do the work. Current drivers for SuperTiling don't use the composite engine at all, the pass their data across the PCI Express bus and the master graphics chip does the compositing. This being the case, with their next generation boards they have the opportunity to remove the compositing device and go for an internal connection connecting both the graphics chips together - if they don't do this, and still have the compositing engine, then they must have some reasons for not doing doing it."

And i'm not sure that there is a limitation: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2477&p=6
How is it possible, that the CrossFire system reaches 136,7 fps at 1600x1200, if the slave radeon can't send more than 60 images to the CE?

BWX · Sep 18, 2005, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deekey777

The Supertiling mode is ATi's favourite child: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpo...8&postcount=99
"As for the compositing device - the graphics chips themselves can actually do the work. Current drivers for SuperTiling don't use the composite engine at all, the pass their data across the PCI Express bus and the master graphics chip does the compositing. This being the case, with their next generation boards they have the opportunity to remove the compositing device and go for an internal connection connecting both the graphics chips together - if they don't do this, and still have the compositing engine, then they must have some reasons for not doing doing it."

And i'm not sure that there is a limitation: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2477&p=6
How is it possible, that the CrossFire system reaches 136,7 fps at 1600x1200, if the slave radeon can't send more than 60 images to the CE?

Yeah, it's hard to know what to think at this point.

Sep 16, 2005, 01:49 PM	#1
Vikingod Int'l Fish Liaison Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: By the light of lamp I sit and type... Posts: 16,197 Rep Power: 112 System Specs	Serious CrossFire Limitation Earlier today I was given information regarding ATI’s upcoming Crossfire technology that, at first, I passed off as so ridiculous it couldn’t possibly be true. However, after having the information verified from several very reputable sources I’ve decided it would be a disservice to keep this information private. As many are aware by now, ATI’s Crossfire technology uses an external link to connect the Master and Slave cards together (it's sort of like a 3-headed dongle with DVI connectors at the ends). What’s not generally known is that the backbone for this setup is a Silicon Image SiL 1161 chip which is installed on the X8-series Master cards. The SiL 1161 is there to receive output passed over the external link from the Slave card in the Crossfire setup and pass it on to the Master card. __________ Read More / Source: Rage3D

Sep 16, 2005, 03:35 PM	#2
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	Wht the hell!?!? That is screwed up.. Nvidia wins again? __________________

Sep 16, 2005, 03:49 PM	#4
Asmoday Demonic Join Date: May 2002 Location: In the cold, dark north... Posts: 5,198 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	I really hope that that isn't true....I mean wtf? Who would pay serious money and not being able to play at higher resolutions then 16x12 and at a worthless 60hz? Maybe it doesn't affect people with better lcd's like the Dell 2001fp, but how many have one of those... __________________ How You can help Hardwareheaven by using Digg

Sep 16, 2005, 03:50 PM	#5
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	What is ATI thinking? Limited to 1600 x 1200 @ 60HZ?? That is just ridiculous if it is true.. Someone over there making these decisions needs to lose their job if this is all true. __________________

Sep 16, 2005, 04:05 PM	#9
daedal Uber Coffee Drinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Gatineau, Quebec Posts: 2,250 Rep Power: 0	Claps hands sarcastically Doesn't really affect me considering my LCD only goes up to 1280x1024 but still. That's horrible new. __________________

Sep 16, 2005, 03:45 PM	#3
Sandok DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 9,472 Rep Power: 0	If it's true... Yes

Sep 16, 2005, 03:57 PM	#6
Sandok DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 9,472 Rep Power: 0	But 60HZ isn't THAT bad is it? Comon, I'm stuck a 1280x1024 @ 60

Sep 16, 2005, 04:27 PM	#10
Killer_uk DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Stoke-on-Trent, UK Posts: 117 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	It just might be true according to this article (I know its the inquirer but it has screenshots) : http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26228 But, I suppose until we have an official word from ATI.....

Sep 16, 2005, 07:09 PM	#11
deekey777 Grünschnabel Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Good Old Germany Posts: 285 Rep Power: 0	ATI's Crossfire Limitation- Mountains Out of Molehills Joshua Walrath over at Penstar Systems decided to post an editorial on ATI's Crossfire implitation after questions of limitations with the spec have come to light: Rage3D really broke the news on the possible limitations of the Silicon Image Sil 1161 receiver that ATI's CrossFire utilized. The receiver can handle a max of 1600x1200 at 60 Hz (or essentially receive 60 1600x1200 frames per second), and runs at a maximum of 165 MHz. At first this limitation looks like a huge disaster waiting to happen to ATI with the release of CrossFire, and many are screaming that the engineers fell down on the job and should all be sacked. When I was first given this information, I originally thought that ATI had made a big blunder... but upon further investigation I believe that it really isn't that big of a limitation at all. ATI's Crossfire Limitation- Mountains Out of Molehills - Josh Read it and relax: Have no fear and drink a beer. __________________ I know, my english is terrible.

Sep 16, 2005, 08:14 PM	#12
brutusmaximus DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 520 Rep Power: 76	It cant be just me in thinking that Rage3d are losing direction lately, first we get a few 7800 reviews which not really very complimentary to ATI at all, but we get ratchet bitching in the forums about how ati suck and how they dont do this, blah blah blah. Just seems to me that he has an issue with ATI atm. That and the fact he seems to be overly appeasing Nvidia, who im sure are loving all this PR. Hope he gets to keep the hardware as he said in R3D forums, if he doesnt it will be quite funny. Its just a negative PR fluff article set to appease Nvidia more, i wouldnt hold much stock in it. Rage3d has gone down the tubes long ago, part of the reason i moved over here, better modding, better articles and a more relaxed atmosphere.

Sep 16, 2005, 08:23 PM	#13
SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 7,033 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	The thing is with limits like that they have no chance for a large future market with Crossifre. I feel bad for ATI, they seem to be digging their own grave : (. 60hz is very hard on the eyes at times also. __________________ Warning - Explicit Content Preceeding METAL!!

Sep 17, 2005, 04:25 AM	#16
amdking DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 51 Rep Power: 0	for all the people complaining about 60hz go buy an LCD =)