Andrzej Bania from ATI speaks out at recent HA article

Zardon · Sep 18, 2005, 09:17 PM

This is taken from a post on beyond3d. here

Traditionally, I don't post in this forum.

Although I have massive respect for the work that goes on with Beyond3D - I always feel that the forum is best left to enthusiasts in the general public as well as the hardcore technologists from ATI and other organisations.

However, the ‘Hardware Analysis thread’ brought up several issues that I am not about to ignore and I want to set the record straight.

Firstly, at ATI we always try to work to the highest standards of professionalism and honesty possible. We have an open relationship with all of the press across the globe and we never shy away from tough questions.

Briefings
We have invited over 100 of Europe’s top press to our R520 Tech Day which takes place at the end of September.
Even with so many places, we cannot invite everyone.
The question remains - how do we brief the press who cannot make it on the day.
From the time that our Tech Day, we will be working with the regional press that we missed to ensure that as many technical journalists as possible have access to the relevant information.
Journalists who have seen and tested the final product themselves, can then be certain of the facts, should write EXACTLY what they feel.

If they love what they see – great.

If they are not happy with what they see – also great.

All we ask for is honesty in the copy itself... that they 'write it as they see it'

Having read through enough of Dave’s reviews over the years – it is pretty clear that Beyond3D forum members have the same mind set as ATI…

JUST GIVE US THE FACTS & LEAVE THE FICTION AT THE DOOR - WE WILL MAKE OUR OWN MINDS UP THANK YOU VERY MUCH

CONCLUSION: When it comes to R520 results, you should only believe journalists who have established a reputation for being trustworthy

Not Invited
Sander has 'presented the reasons' why he was NOT on the list of 100 press for our R520 Tech Day.

However, he has conveniently left off the actual reason - which he and I have discussed at length in various emails. I am not talkning about a snatched comment - these were full blown conversations - going back and forth - that clearly detail the logic behind the decision.

Not inviting him to this Tech Day is a direct result of his response to the last invitation that I sent him

I am not going in to detail here - but it was that categorical refusal to engage that led to his being left off of this list. He knows exactly what I am talking about.

Remember, he would still have been briefed before the NDA lifted - just not at our Tech Day.

Let me say this clearly, there is no 'ATI black list for press who do not write nice stories'.

We want an open and honest press who report the facts as they see them - based on their own testing - rather than second hand gossip and fairy tales.

There are a number of reasons why any company would stop engaging with an individual - but writing honest copy is not one of them.

Honest reviews serve the vendor just as much as the customer - and anything less should be rejected.

CONCLUSION: If you choose NOT to work with a vendor - don't cry 'foul' when they decide NOT to work with you

Email conversations

As I have pointed out, honesty is crucial.

Emailing several people at ATI to explain that you are very important, that you have a series of specific demands that must be met as soon as possible and then going on to explain just how bad a job we are doing of keeping you happy is one thing.

However, including ATI's direct competition on 'cc' in such an email is another thing entirely.

To then 'jump to the moral high ground' when your 'threats' have been exposed is laughable.

CONCLUSION: Once you pick the rules of engagement - don't get upset when your true character is revealed later on

The Figures
When considering the performance of our next-generation products, you need to ask yourself one very simple question:

"Would ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe’s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"

Sander claims that these numbers were given to him by a trusted source.

The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products.

CONCLUSION: Either Sander lied - or his 'trusted source' set him up to look stupid on a global stage for printing made up results

Edits
Intelligent readers also need to be aware that the first version of the story he posted seemed to accuse every site who attends the ATI Tech Day of a fundamental inability to be independent in their testing and copy.

Needless to say that I am sure several sites have 'web-wacked' that original version and will be considering taking action to defend their names.

CONCLUSION: If you are going to accuse the largest independent publications in Europe of being bent - make sure you have enough money in the bank to retain good council

Logic
The whole thing has clearly been engineered - to what purpose no one can say for certain.

Maybe he is trying to force ATI to offer an invitation to Tech Day... which is not going to succeed as we refuse to be strong-armed.

Perhaps it was a simple tantrum at not being taken seriously... when, in fact, that was not the case at all.

Cynical people might say that it was to generate hits... but we cannot be sure of that either.

Whether it was one of these reasons - or a completely different twist of logic - one thing is for certain - it has certainly acted as an appetiser for ATI's next generation launch... and for that I have to say 'Thanks Sander !'

Having corrected several of the 'inaccuracies', I am not going to say any more on the subject because the real strength of the Beyond3D forums is their focus on technology.

How open are we going to be with our Tech Day ?

Simple, in addition to the top news & reviews sites, we have also invited one of the largest nVidia fan sites in the world to come along, get briefed and benchmark R520 however they choose - along with the best of them.

The world's top press will have hands-on our latest products in less than two weeks and you can all decide then if you prefer facts or fiction.

Thank you for taking the time to read this

Kind regards,

Andrzej Bania
ATI Technologies

pr0digal jenius · Sep 18, 2005, 09:38 PM

Well said.

Much respect for how ATi, DH, and the general public(for the most part) have handled this whole situation.

evrt63 · Sep 19, 2005, 12:08 AM

well said indeed! and now i'm left drooling for benches on that card that brings ATI so much confidence

No_Style · Sep 19, 2005, 12:11 AM

Hey, I just read this at Beyond3D as well. Nice to have some kind of official response. October will be interesting.

farkas · Sep 19, 2005, 12:43 AM

I like the fact that although you responded in a detailed manner, you left out the dirty laundry and took the high road Andrzej Bania.

regards
farkas

digitalwanderer · Sep 19, 2005, 04:01 AM

Meanwhile, back at Beyond3D on around page 8 of their new thread about this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Reynolds

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssassen

I actually welcome Andrzej's post, as it gives me the opportunity to no longer hold back with certain information. Rest assured that my reply is on its way, I just want to make sure I don't miss any of the details. As the crux of the matter is usually in the details. All I can say now is that I had to correct quite a few of Andrzej's ‘inaccuracies’ which I’ve now set in stone by providing full transcripts of emails or quotes from emails which do put the majority of his comments in a rather different light, but there simply is no getting around the truth I’m afraid. I also welcome the fact that given his statement and my upcoming one, the reader himself can now make up his mind what to think of all this.

Honestly, if most of this soap opera merely pertains to why ATI chose to cut you 'out of the loop' the majority of readers here simply won't care. Receiving review samples from companies is a privilege, not a right, something you seem to have confused in your head for whatever reason. And personally, at this stage, I think you're just trying to garner sympathy by casting yourself as the innocent martyr devilishly wronged by the big, bad IHV after having chosen to use your site as a rather unprofessional bully pulpit.

So, that said, please stop dodging questions pertaining to what readers here really want to know (i.e. how those benchmark scores were generated) and leave the soap opera elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssassen

John,

Rest assured I won't be repeating myself again but will be offering full disclosure on a lot of issues. But I'm supportive of the suggestion of the other gentleman, it might be a good idea to get the popcorn out and get a fresh pot of coffee ready, this won't be a single paragraph reply I'm afraid.

Looks like we get front row seats to Sassen nuking himself all public like, I can't wait!

The_Neon_Cowboy · Sep 19, 2005, 01:47 PM

yea sasson is still sticking to his guns.

I can't help but laugh I been looking over his forum the last few
days and never has it said that there was more then 10-14 members
logged in. either thier not that many users or thier all out defending
thier high lord and master.

The best part will be waching the man roast, and try to explain
away all this when the REAL reviews come out. That and how
his "supporters" will feel when they've been proven WRONG.
When the Cloud of the NDA is up.

be sure to book mark and save of this stuff sasson is saying!

digitalwanderer · Sep 19, 2005, 03:30 PM

Oh man, his "article" about it was just painfully embarressing to read...but it is up if anyone is interested.

Sad, very sad....I actually sort of pity the guy now.

WxChaser · Sep 19, 2005, 03:33 PM

Well said my friend. Great response and well elucidated. Keep up the good work!

jenns · Sep 19, 2005, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalwanderer

Oh man, his "article" about it was just painfully embarressing to read...but it is up if anyone is interested.

Sad, very sad....I actually sort of pity the guy now.

Yeah pretty much.

SFOSOK · Sep 19, 2005, 06:09 PM

Not trying to rain on everyone's parade (stomping on Sanders), but what if his benchmarks are not that far off and ATI barely beats the 7800GTX for 100 - 150 more?

Edit: I would like to support ATI and all, but to swing to one side of the issue at hand before anything official is released seems kind of dumb.

ReDGuiTaR · Sep 19, 2005, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFOSOK

Not trying to rain on everyone's parade (stomping on Sanders), but what if his benchmarks are not that far off and ATI barely beats the 7800GTX for 100 - 150 more?

Edit: I would like to support ATI and all, but to swing to one side of the issue at hand before anything official is released seems kind of dumb.

The 7800GTX is one of a hell good card that's for sure, so you cant go wrong buying it .
From the benchmark on HA site it clearly show that the X1800XT is underpar with the 7800GTX and more challenging the 7800GT wich i dont believe it will . May be the X1800XT wont be much faster than a 7800GTX but still there is a big margin between the bench at HA and what the x1800XT should be . If you're itching to buy a new card just go the 7800GTX route you wont be disapointed . But, that is not the point there ... the problem is this guy throwing number that cannot be verified even by himself !!! How can you trust a journalist that just speculate like that ??? He does not even know what kind of MoBo or CPU was used to bench the card nor the driver version . In the journalistic world it is not very professionnal if you only rely on hearsay except if you're the kind of journalist that wrote papers on Stars from hollywood !!!

Edit : may be that was his intention after all ... getting more hit on his site ! But if you go check who's online on HA now you will see that there's only 15-20 member and over 3k guests ......

SFOSOK · Sep 19, 2005, 08:31 PM

Well I can only state how it seems as I do not know either side of the story to the full extent. I would like to say wait a while before bashing this guy (even if you know he is wrong). It would be a damn shame if he was right (which he probably is not). I just hope (for ATI's sake) that this card is worth the extra 100-150. If not they are goin to have to do a lot to compete with Nvidia.

This guy probably deserves a bashing, but I would not be so hasty without all the facts and not having any other valid benchmarks, I mean most of us assume that the 1800 would be a certain degree higher than the 7800 GTX, but sometimes things don't always come out as expected.

ReDGuiTaR · Sep 19, 2005, 08:38 PM

Even if the benchmark are close or equal to what he wrote, wich would surprise me, the way he did it wasnt the good one .

The_Neon_Cowboy · Sep 20, 2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFOSOK

Well I can only state how it seems as I do not know either side of the story to the full extent. I would like to say wait a while before bashing this guy (even if you know he is wrong). It would be a damn shame if he was right (which he probably is not). I just hope (for ATI's sake) that this card is worth the extra 100-150. If not they are goin to have to do a lot to compete with Nvidia.

This guy probably deserves a bashing, but I would not be so hasty without all the facts and not having any other valid benchmarks, I mean most of us assume that the 1800 would be a certain degree higher than the 7800 GTX, but sometimes things don't always come out as expected.

He wrong!

I don't like that all his numbers except for the supposed to be R520 ones
came from a review of a 7800GT he had posted on aug 11th.
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1810/
The exact same just minus he adding the bechmarks in question.
That alone make him off right from the get go becouse of drivers
on those numbers are well over 30 days old when he posted the
supposed to be r520 artical! The funy thing is that 7800GT artical
was questionable as well as in some were saying it didn't match up
to the reviews on other sites. (On that I don't know)

those with actual R520's are the only ones who know better and with
100% certanty and it not unlikely some have commented on the mans
wrongness. It's hard to come claen with it all untill the NDA lifts and the
REAL reviews roll on wich day you'll find sasson hideing under a rock.

Why did he do this a month before and not a week before? Besides the
malicious intent do damage ati as in sales and stocks. Becouse
he going to try to say they changed the cards and drivers and that his
artical was accurate

and that maybye it was the custom
bechmarks, maybe it was the fact he never went with in miles of a
actual R520 little lone bechmark one. He didn't even know the system
specs of drivers used (wich if you don't have you don't publish).

Sep 18, 2005, 09:17 PM	#1
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	Andrzej Bania from ATI speaks out against recent HA article This is taken from a post on beyond3d. here Traditionally, I don't post in this forum. Although I have massive respect for the work that goes on with Beyond3D - I always feel that the forum is best left to enthusiasts in the general public as well as the hardcore technologists from ATI and other organisations. However, the ‘Hardware Analysis thread’ brought up several issues that I am not about to ignore and I want to set the record straight. Firstly, at ATI we always try to work to the highest standards of professionalism and honesty possible. We have an open relationship with all of the press across the globe and we never shy away from tough questions. Briefings We have invited over 100 of Europe’s top press to our R520 Tech Day which takes place at the end of September. Even with so many places, we cannot invite everyone. The question remains - how do we brief the press who cannot make it on the day. From the time that our Tech Day, we will be working with the regional press that we missed to ensure that as many technical journalists as possible have access to the relevant information. Journalists who have seen and tested the final product themselves, can then be certain of the facts, should write EXACTLY what they feel. If they love what they see – great. If they are not happy with what they see – also great. All we ask for is honesty in the copy itself... that they 'write it as they see it' Having read through enough of Dave’s reviews over the years – it is pretty clear that Beyond3D forum members have the same mind set as ATI… JUST GIVE US THE FACTS & LEAVE THE FICTION AT THE DOOR - WE WILL MAKE OUR OWN MINDS UP THANK YOU VERY MUCH CONCLUSION: When it comes to R520 results, you should only believe journalists who have established a reputation for being trustworthy Not Invited Sander has 'presented the reasons' why he was NOT on the list of 100 press for our R520 Tech Day. However, he has conveniently left off the actual reason - which he and I have discussed at length in various emails. I am not talkning about a snatched comment - these were full blown conversations - going back and forth - that clearly detail the logic behind the decision. Not inviting him to this Tech Day is a direct result of his response to the last invitation that I sent him I am not going in to detail here - but it was that categorical refusal to engage that led to his being left off of this list. He knows exactly what I am talking about. Remember, he would still have been briefed before the NDA lifted - just not at our Tech Day. Let me say this clearly, there is no 'ATI black list for press who do not write nice stories'. We want an open and honest press who report the facts as they see them - based on their own testing - rather than second hand gossip and fairy tales. There are a number of reasons why any company would stop engaging with an individual - but writing honest copy is not one of them. Honest reviews serve the vendor just as much as the customer - and anything less should be rejected. CONCLUSION: If you choose NOT to work with a vendor - don't cry 'foul' when they decide NOT to work with you Email conversations As I have pointed out, honesty is crucial. Emailing several people at ATI to explain that you are very important, that you have a series of specific demands that must be met as soon as possible and then going on to explain just how bad a job we are doing of keeping you happy is one thing. However, including ATI's direct competition on 'cc' in such an email is another thing entirely. To then 'jump to the moral high ground' when your 'threats' have been exposed is laughable. CONCLUSION: Once you pick the rules of engagement - don't get upset when your true character is revealed later on The Figures When considering the performance of our next-generation products, you need to ask yourself one very simple question: "Would ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe’s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?" Sander claims that these numbers were given to him by a trusted source. The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products. CONCLUSION: Either Sander lied - or his 'trusted source' set him up to look stupid on a global stage for printing made up results Edits Intelligent readers also need to be aware that the first version of the story he posted seemed to accuse every site who attends the ATI Tech Day of a fundamental inability to be independent in their testing and copy. Needless to say that I am sure several sites have 'web-wacked' that original version and will be considering taking action to defend their names. CONCLUSION: If you are going to accuse the largest independent publications in Europe of being bent - make sure you have enough money in the bank to retain good council Logic The whole thing has clearly been engineered - to what purpose no one can say for certain. Maybe he is trying to force ATI to offer an invitation to Tech Day... which is not going to succeed as we refuse to be strong-armed. Perhaps it was a simple tantrum at not being taken seriously... when, in fact, that was not the case at all. Cynical people might say that it was to generate hits... but we cannot be sure of that either. Whether it was one of these reasons - or a completely different twist of logic - one thing is for certain - it has certainly acted as an appetiser for ATI's next generation launch... and for that I have to say 'Thanks Sander !' Having corrected several of the 'inaccuracies', I am not going to say any more on the subject because the real strength of the Beyond3D forums is their focus on technology. How open are we going to be with our Tech Day ? Simple, in addition to the top news & reviews sites, we have also invited one of the largest nVidia fan sites in the world to come along, get briefed and benchmark R520 however they choose - along with the best of them. The world's top press will have hands-on our latest products in less than two weeks and you can all decide then if you prefer facts or fiction. Thank you for taking the time to read this Kind regards, Andrzej Bania ATI Technologies

Sep 19, 2005, 12:11 AM	#4
No_Style Styleless Wonder Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ottawa, Ontario Posts: 6,034 Rep Power: 0	Hey, I just read this at Beyond3D as well. Nice to have some kind of official response. October will be interesting. __________________ "The Best Style Is No Style" Specifications Here

Sep 19, 2005, 12:43 AM	#5
farkas IT Support Specialist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ste-Anne-de-Beaupre, Québec, Can Posts: 175 Rep Power: 0	I like the fact that although you responded in a detailed manner, you left out the dirty laundry and took the high road Andrzej Bania. regards farkas __________________ K8N DLX (s754) A64 3200+ Thermalright XP-120 Corsair CMX512C2 X 2 1GB total Asus X800XT PE with ATI Silencer 4 rev 1 120Gb Sea SATA + 120GB WD PATA + 80GB WD PATA

Sep 19, 2005, 01:47 PM	#7
The_Neon_Cowboy HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16,009 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	yea sasson is still sticking to his guns. I can't help but laugh I been looking over his forum the last few days and never has it said that there was more then 10-14 members logged in. either thier not that many users or thier all out defending thier high lord and master. The best part will be waching the man roast, and try to explain away all this when the REAL reviews come out. That and how his "supporters" will feel when they've been proven WRONG. When the Cloud of the NDA is up. be sure to book mark and save of this stuff sasson is saying! __________________

Sep 19, 2005, 03:30 PM	#8
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,619 Rep Power: 0	Oh man, his "article" about it was just painfully embarressing to read...but it is up if anyone is interested. Sad, very sad....I actually sort of pity the guy now. __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Sep 18, 2005, 09:38 PM	#2
pr0digal jenius Delete Me Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 14,648 Rep Power: 0	Well said. Much respect for how ATi, DH, and the general public(for the most part) have handled this whole situation.

Sep 19, 2005, 12:08 AM	#3
evrt63 HardwareHeaven Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: oregon Posts: 91 Rep Power: 0	well said indeed! and now i'm left drooling for benches on that card that brings ATI so much confidence

Sep 19, 2005, 03:33 PM	#9
WxChaser Super Moderator Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 404 Rep Power: 0	Well said my friend. Great response and well elucidated. Keep up the good work!

Sep 19, 2005, 06:09 PM	#11
SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 7,033 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	Not trying to rain on everyone's parade (stomping on Sanders), but what if his benchmarks are not that far off and ATI barely beats the 7800GTX for 100 - 150 more? Edit: I would like to support ATI and all, but to swing to one side of the issue at hand before anything official is released seems kind of dumb. __________________ Warning - Explicit Content Preceeding METAL!!

Sep 19, 2005, 08:31 PM	#13
SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 7,033 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	Well I can only state how it seems as I do not know either side of the story to the full extent. I would like to say wait a while before bashing this guy (even if you know he is wrong). It would be a damn shame if he was right (which he probably is not). I just hope (for ATI's sake) that this card is worth the extra 100-150. If not they are goin to have to do a lot to compete with Nvidia. This guy probably deserves a bashing, but I would not be so hasty without all the facts and not having any other valid benchmarks, I mean most of us assume that the 1800 would be a certain degree higher than the 7800 GTX, but sometimes things don't always come out as expected. __________________ Warning - Explicit Content Preceeding METAL!!

Sep 19, 2005, 08:38 PM	#14
ReDGuiTaR DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Quebec , Canada Posts: 746 Rep Power: 0	Even if the benchmark are close or equal to what he wrote, wich would surprise me, the way he did it wasnt the good one . __________________ Zing a ling... zing a ling a ling ... A8N-E - A64x2 4600, 2048 Mb Kingston ram 400mhz cas 2.5 ( 2 x 1024 DualChannel ), Seagate 320 Gig 7200 16Mb cache S-ata 2, GeForce 7900GT 512MB, Enermax 460watt power supply, WindowsXP SP2.