Which water cooler should I go for?

tastyweat · Jul 31, 2004, 11:30 PM

As I'm getting a new 3.4 northwood / abit ic7 max 3 system - i've decided that I really want water cooling.

I have two to choose from:

Corsair Hydrocool 200 - http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...181-001&depa=1

and

KINGWIN ARCTIC LIQUID CPU COOLER SYSTEM - http://www.gameve.com/gve/Store/Prod...ku=ACC-AWC-001

The corsair will have the better cooling - that's for sure... but I'm not sure how much better

the kingwin would be easier and more handy as everything goes inside the case... but I'm not so sure about the 5.25" bay controller - I think that it may not fit in my thermaltake tsunami... there's not much room underneath the door when it's closed.

As for what OC do I want... I believe I'm looking at 3.75GHz with a thermalright SP-94 - I would like to get more than that without going over 60C

Corsair is looking the favourite atm... but it's all external which is a little bit of a turnoff... ideally I would like some good cooler that is 100% internal... I move my computer from time to time (not very often) and it would get annoying if I had to bleed the system every time... I'm not sure about the corsair - it appears to have some form of mechanism on the connecters on the hoses that may stop it from leaking when disconnected - not so sure about that though.

Any opinions?

pr0digal jenius · Aug 1, 2004, 04:11 AM

get a koolance Exos...its all in 1 box and is external...but straps to the top of the case so it can be moved

applebyk · Aug 1, 2004, 05:09 AM

I fixed up a decent rig for under $100 (they had a 10% off sale) here: http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp

They have everything, and a good rep. Should perform as well or better than a prebuilt at a lower price. You could also try used if you like that sorta thing.

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 06:12 AM

build your own.

@/2ct!< · Aug 1, 2004, 07:06 AM

the corsair would be much better than the kingwin(kingwin probably worse than your HS.) But if you just went internal with different parts you could get everything you wanted, and probably cheaper too.

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 12:11 PM

I really don't want to build one myself... I'm completely new to watercooling... so I want something easy and practically idiot proof... so the corsair and the kingwin were the best options... I really want decent cooling though - so I think the corsair is the better option.... I would really like one with a gpu block and maybe a chipset block too... but don't want to go for the big bad asetek

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 12:33 PM

I don't like the look of the koolance exos... the most expensive one out there - and looks more hassle than even the asetek - the asetek is looking more attractive though

El Kapitano · Aug 1, 2004, 01:02 PM

Have a look at the Asetek offerings.

The antarctica cpu block is excellent. I've got the full L12 kit with dual 120mm rad etc.

Depends on your case size tho' I've opted for an external sollution with leakproof connectors on the flow and return hoses and a secondary pump and reservoir for carting the rig into work for broadband updating.

I have seen this kit built into a case and done carefully with a largish case with the rad in the top it looks great.

A word of warning though, scrap aseteks anti algae stuff and use water wetter instead.

The_Neon_Cowboy · Aug 1, 2004, 01:20 PM

Personally I'd do a build it my self.....

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by El Kapitano
Have a look at the Asetek offerings.

The antarctica cpu block is excellent. I've got the full L12 kit with dual 120mm rad etc.

Depends on your case size tho' I've opted for an external sollution with leakproof connectors on the flow and return hoses and a secondary pump and reservoir for carting the rig into work for broadband updating.

I have seen this kit built into a case and done carefully with a largish case with the rad in the top it looks great.

A word of warning though, scrap aseteks anti algae stuff and use water wetter instead.

yeah... that's the asektek I'm looking out - it's coming out tops now - I want gpu cooling... and chipset cooling is an added bonus. Read through the DH review and I've talked to Veridian3 about it... it looks v. good and reasonably easy.

I doubt I'd be able to fix it into my case - it's possible - but it would be cramped and the cooling would be no where near as good... I'll just get some adhesive velcro straps and attach the radiator and pump to the side of the case without the window.... that'd do the job for me... and find a way to feed the tubing through an open pci slot... or dettach the otes from the abit and feed it in through there which I think would look good.

... I may actually be able to fit the pump + resevoir just on the inside of the case... but the radiator would definitely go on the outside

El Kapitano · Aug 1, 2004, 04:16 PM

Tasty, look at these I've used for the pipe exits -

bulkhead connectors

they save you a pci slot and are push fit so you can easily release the pipe when you need to.

Get them from your local branch of thorite pneumatic supplies or similar ones from RS.

edit:

Oh and you really get much better results if you use some kind of spacer/shroud to get the fans at least 1" away from the radiator.

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 05:10 PM

they look handy

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tastyweat
I really don't want to build one myself... I'm completely new to watercooling... so I want something easy and practically idiot proof... so the corsair and the kingwin were the best options... I really want decent cooling though - so I think the corsair is the better option.... I would really like one with a gpu block and maybe a chipset block too... but don't want to go for the big bad asetek

That is how I felt. But after researching it was clear that none of the kits can perform as well as a DIY. So as for price/performance DIY is the way to go. As far as kits being easier, you still have to mount everything and cut tubing. I am very glad that I built mine and will be happy to lend you a hand. You can see from my sig that what I came up with works pretty damn good! As far as fitting everything check out my pics in the fastest rig thread. Whew. It can be done.

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 08:52 PM

lol... well I'm tempted by the asetek and the koolance now - the koolance is an outstanding cooler and is very customisable - it comes with no blocks- so I would probably get the Maze3s/maze4s to go with it which seem to be the best on the market

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tastyweat
lol... well I'm tempted by the asetek and the koolance now - the koolance is an outstanding cooler and is very customisable - it comes with no blocks- so I would probably get the Maze3s/maze4s to go with it which seem to be the best on the market

I looked into the Koolance and it doesnt offer the cooling performance of a good heater core. It certainly looks nice, but I would rather be cool than look cool. LOL. DTEK makes great ones and they are much cheaper than Koolance systems. I guess it all depends on how much performance you need or want. DD blocks are the best I have ever used.

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 09:33 PM

I want 3.9GHz out of the 3.4 northwood... I'll settle for 3.85 (3.85 is acheivable with a zalman resorator) - so as long as the cooling is as good as or better than the resorator I'll be happy

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tastyweat
I want 3.9GHz out of the 3.4 northwood... I'll settle for 3.85 (3.85 is acheivable with a zalman resorator) - so as long as the cooling is as good as or better than the resorator I'll be happy

The resorator shouldnt be hard to beat. If that is your target than go with the Koolance. Otherwise look into a custom system. I would recommend:

DD-RBX or TDX (cpu)
DD-Maze4 (NB)
DD-Maze4 (gpu)
DTEK 120 procore (dual 120 push/pull)
Aquaxtreme pump (same as the swiffy)
1/2 inch Tygon

This setup keeps my cpu at 41 max, and my X800xt O.C. to the balls at 36 max.

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SIK_L_CELL
The resorator shouldnt be hard to beat. If that is your target than go with the Koolance. Otherwise look into a custom system. I would recommend:

DD-RBX or TDX (cpu)
DD-Maze4 (NB)
DD-Maze4 (gpu)
DTEK 120 procore (dual 120 push/pull)
Aquaxtreme pump (same as the swiffy)
1/2 inch Tygon

This setup keeps my cpu at 41 max, and my X800xt O.C. to the balls at 36 max.

I'll look into the self assembly stuff... I don't suppose you have any idea where to get that stuff in the uk do you?

and which is the better the RBX or the TDX? I saw both

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tastyweat
I'll look into the self assembly stuff... I don't suppose you have any idea where to get that stuff in the uk do you?

and which is the better the RBX or the TDX? I saw both

The only reason I would suggest DIY is if you are like me (or most of the modding world) I just wouldnt be happy with the kit performance. As far as the cpu block, the TDX is just about as good as the RBX. It just has 1 inlet and 1 outlet. Also it is wider and fits a little better on amd's. I personally prefer the flow of the RBX. I am sure there are retailers in the UK, I will have a look. Good luck.

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 09:59 PM

found just about all of the stuff - http://www.over-clock.co.uk/

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tastyweat
found just about all of the stuff - http://www.over-clock.co.uk/

http://www.tekheads.co.uk

http://www.coolercases.co.uk/water_blocks_dangerden.htm

Two more for ya!!

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 10:06 PM

how does the following sound... I don't mind paying up to £300

DangerDen Maze4 CPU Block
DangerDen Clear Reservoir
Thermochill HE120.1
XinRuillian 0.40a 120mm fan
120mm Chrome Fan Guard
Eheim 1048 Pump
2.5mtrs of 1/2" Thickwalled tubing
Purple Ice
Mounting Hardware for CPU Block
Mounting Hardware for FanGuard and Fan to Radiator
Mounting Hardware for Radiator to Case
Worm Drive Hose Clips
Fitting Instructions

For Radiator Sizing, please see the Radiators Section

THERMAL COMPOUND NOT INCLUDED. If you need some, order it HERE

Installation Guide
Price: (£149.00 exc VAT) £178.06 Including VAT - at 17.5% and PAYPAL Surcharge - at 2%
Remember, PAYPAL surcharges can be REMOVED in the checkout if paying by regular payment methods!!

Convert kit to P4 S478 Compatible - £2.99 exc VAT

Add a GF4 GPU Block - £33.99 exc VAT

Add a Maze4 Universal GPU Block - £35.50 exc VAT

Add a Maze4 NB Block - £28.00 exc VAT

Change Radiator to ThermoChill HE120.2 (2x120mm) and add relevant fans & guards - £12.00 exc VAT

Change Radiator to ThermoChill HE120.3 (3x120mm) and add relevant fans & guards - £30.00 exc VAT

Change Reservoir to Criticool Waterplant - £2 exc VAT

Change Reservoir to Typhoon Quad Bay Res - no charge!

Upgrade Pump to Eheim 1250 - £10 exc VAT

Upgrade Pump to Hydor L30 - £2.50 exc VAT

Change Tubing to Tygon - £9.00

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 10:11 PM

I'd like a pump that's relatively quiet but still pumps a decent amount water

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 10:16 PM

Looks good, just a couple of suggestions. You should use 2 fans in a push/pull config with shrouds. Also the gpu block is it the solid one with the barbs horizontal to the card? (pic if you can) As far as the pump use a swiftech mcp600 or aquaxtreme, they are exactly the same. They are ultra quiet and provide the flow that the DD blocks love.

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 10:17 PM

what about the three pumps listed?

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tastyweat
what about the three pumps listed?

If I had to it would be the Hydor. Look around see if you can find more selection. Also are you getting the RBX or TDX? Oh even the DD pumps are good.

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 10:26 PM

oh that's a point... are the pumps respectably small? don't have to be tiny... but smaller than the asetek one! - the eheims look decent - what is a good l/h rate? I have the choice between 600, 700 and 1200... would 700 be sufficient?

this is the gpu block -

tastyweat · Aug 1, 2004, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SIK_L_CELL
If I had to it would be the Hydor. Look around see if you can find more selection. Also are you getting the RBX or TDX? Oh even the DD pumps are good.

Wires straight to a molex.... no relay required!!

This Danger Den DD12V-D4 pump is one of the best 12V pumps on the market. It will run off of a standard computer power supply. This tiny pump, size shown in Figure 1 below, will fit in almost any case. The flow rates at various pressures proves to be better then any of the 110V pumps offered at Danger Den. Compare the data in Figure 2 to the Hydor L30!

Also, tuning of your pump flow rates can be done with a rheobus. The rheobus needs to have at least a rating of 18W per channel. The amp draw for each voltage level is shown in Figure 3 below. Just like fan control, if a user wants the lowest sound level possible, the pump voltage can be decreased. This can lead to different CPU temperatures and as a end user, you can control this! The sound levels at various voltages are shown in Figure 4 with both the Eheim 1048 and Hydor L30 as a baseline. Remember, at least 6 Volts is needed to start the pump.

(To see the figures referenced, follow the link below)

Click Here for Manufacturer's Info
Price: (£44.00 exc VAT) £52.58 Including VAT - at 17.5% and PAYPAL Surcharge - at 2%
Remember, PAYPAL surcharges can be REMOVED in the checkout if paying by regular payment methods!!

--- how's this one?

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tastyweat
oh that's a point... are the pumps respectably small? don't have to be tiny... but smaller than the asetek one! - the eheims look decent - what is a good l/h rate? I have the choice between 600, 700 and 1200... would 700 be sufficient?

this is the gpu block -

It is not so much l/h but head pressure. The new swiftech pumps are actually the same as the DD pumps! I just saw that. 700 should be fine. And that is the gpu block I was recommending. I would try to find the Swiftech, Aquaxtreme, or DD in that order. If not I would go with the Hydor.

SIK_L_CELL · Aug 1, 2004, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tastyweat
Wires straight to a molex.... no relay required!!

This Danger Den DD12V-D4 pump is one of the best 12V pumps on the market. It will run off of a standard computer power supply. This tiny pump, size shown in Figure 1 below, will fit in almost any case. The flow rates at various pressures proves to be better then any of the 110V pumps offered at Danger Den. Compare the data in Figure 2 to the Hydor L30!

Also, tuning of your pump flow rates can be done with a rheobus. The rheobus needs to have at least a rating of 18W per channel. The amp draw for each voltage level is shown in Figure 3 below. Just like fan control, if a user wants the lowest sound level possible, the pump voltage can be decreased. This can lead to different CPU temperatures and as a end user, you can control this! The sound levels at various voltages are shown in Figure 4 with both the Eheim 1048 and Hydor L30 as a baseline. Remember, at least 6 Volts is needed to start the pump.

(To see the figures referenced, follow the link below)

Click Here for Manufacturer's Info
Price: (£44.00 exc VAT) £52.58 Including VAT - at 17.5% and PAYPAL Surcharge - at 2%
Remember, PAYPAL surcharges can be REMOVED in the checkout if paying by regular payment methods!!

--- how's this one?

That is a great pump!! I just found out that that is what Swiftech is using as OEM now.

Jul 31, 2004, 11:30 PM	#1
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	Which water cooler should I go for? As I'm getting a new 3.4 northwood / abit ic7 max 3 system - i've decided that I really want water cooling. I have two to choose from: Corsair Hydrocool 200 - http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduc...181-001&depa=1 and KINGWIN ARCTIC LIQUID CPU COOLER SYSTEM - http://www.gameve.com/gve/Store/Prod...ku=ACC-AWC-001 The corsair will have the better cooling - that's for sure... but I'm not sure how much better the kingwin would be easier and more handy as everything goes inside the case... but I'm not so sure about the 5.25" bay controller - I think that it may not fit in my thermaltake tsunami... there's not much room underneath the door when it's closed. As for what OC do I want... I believe I'm looking at 3.75GHz with a thermalright SP-94 - I would like to get more than that without going over 60C Corsair is looking the favourite atm... but it's all external which is a little bit of a turnoff... ideally I would like some good cooler that is 100% internal... I move my computer from time to time (not very often) and it would get annoying if I had to bleed the system every time... I'm not sure about the corsair - it appears to have some form of mechanism on the connecters on the hoses that may stop it from leaking when disconnected - not so sure about that though. Any opinions? __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 05:09 AM	#3
applebyk DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 91 Rep Power: 0	I fixed up a decent rig for under $100 (they had a 10% off sale) here: http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp They have everything, and a good rep. Should perform as well or better than a prebuilt at a lower price. You could also try used if you like that sorta thing. __________________ Antec Sonata + 380S Truepower 2500+ @ 1.3v , Volcano 12 + stealth NF7-S rev.2 w/ iceberq copper 9600XT + zalman NBsink @ 550/330 Raid 0 120GB Sata hard drives HyperX 3500 @ 2700, 2-2-2-6

Aug 1, 2004, 06:12 AM	#4
SIK_L_CELL Cowboy From Hell Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 225 Rep Power: 0	build your own. __________________ FX-55 X850xt DFI SLI-DR Gskill LE 05 - 8152 03 - 17169 01 - 38020 AM3 - 102443

Aug 1, 2004, 07:06 AM	#5
@/2ct!< HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Not Vegas, anymore :( Posts: 1,391 Rep Power: 0	the corsair would be much better than the kingwin(kingwin probably worse than your HS.) But if you just went internal with different parts you could get everything you wanted, and probably cheaper too. __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 12:11 PM	Thread Starter #6
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	I really don't want to build one myself... I'm completely new to watercooling... so I want something easy and practically idiot proof... so the corsair and the kingwin were the best options... I really want decent cooling though - so I think the corsair is the better option.... I would really like one with a gpu block and maybe a chipset block too... but don't want to go for the big bad asetek __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 04:11 AM	#2
pr0digal jenius Delete Me Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 14,648 Rep Power: 0	get a koolance Exos...its all in 1 box and is external...but straps to the top of the case so it can be moved

Aug 1, 2004, 12:33 PM	Thread Starter #7
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	I don't like the look of the koolance exos... the most expensive one out there - and looks more hassle than even the asetek - the asetek is looking more attractive though __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 01:02 PM	#8
El Kapitano Most of the 7 dwarfs in 1 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rochdale, Lancashire Posts: 947 Rep Power: 0	Have a look at the Asetek offerings. The antarctica cpu block is excellent. I've got the full L12 kit with dual 120mm rad etc. Depends on your case size tho' I've opted for an external sollution with leakproof connectors on the flow and return hoses and a secondary pump and reservoir for carting the rig into work for broadband updating. I have seen this kit built into a case and done carefully with a largish case with the rad in the top it looks great. A word of warning though, scrap aseteks anti algae stuff and use water wetter instead.

Aug 1, 2004, 01:20 PM	#9
The_Neon_Cowboy HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16,009 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	Personally I'd do a build it my self..... __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 04:16 PM	#11
El Kapitano Most of the 7 dwarfs in 1 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rochdale, Lancashire Posts: 947 Rep Power: 0	Tasty, look at these I've used for the pipe exits - bulkhead connectors they save you a pci slot and are push fit so you can easily release the pipe when you need to. Get them from your local branch of thorite pneumatic supplies or similar ones from RS. edit: Oh and you really get much better results if you use some kind of spacer/shroud to get the fans at least 1" away from the radiator.

Aug 1, 2004, 05:10 PM	Thread Starter #12
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	they look handy __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 08:52 PM	Thread Starter #14
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	lol... well I'm tempted by the asetek and the koolance now - the koolance is an outstanding cooler and is very customisable - it comes with no blocks- so I would probably get the Maze3s/maze4s to go with it which seem to be the best on the market __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 09:33 PM	Thread Starter #16
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	I want 3.9GHz out of the 3.4 northwood... I'll settle for 3.85 (3.85 is acheivable with a zalman resorator) - so as long as the cooling is as good as or better than the resorator I'll be happy __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 09:59 PM	Thread Starter #20
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	found just about all of the stuff - http://www.over-clock.co.uk/ __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 10:06 PM	Thread Starter #22
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	how does the following sound... I don't mind paying up to £300 DangerDen Maze4 CPU Block DangerDen Clear Reservoir Thermochill HE120.1 XinRuillian 0.40a 120mm fan 120mm Chrome Fan Guard Eheim 1048 Pump 2.5mtrs of 1/2" Thickwalled tubing Purple Ice Mounting Hardware for CPU Block Mounting Hardware for FanGuard and Fan to Radiator Mounting Hardware for Radiator to Case Worm Drive Hose Clips Fitting Instructions For Radiator Sizing, please see the Radiators Section THERMAL COMPOUND NOT INCLUDED. If you need some, order it HERE Installation Guide Price: (£149.00 exc VAT) £178.06 Including VAT - at 17.5% and PAYPAL Surcharge - at 2% Remember, PAYPAL surcharges can be REMOVED in the checkout if paying by regular payment methods!! Convert kit to P4 S478 Compatible - £2.99 exc VAT Add a GF4 GPU Block - £33.99 exc VAT Add a Maze4 Universal GPU Block - £35.50 exc VAT Add a Maze4 NB Block - £28.00 exc VAT Change Radiator to ThermoChill HE120.2 (2x120mm) and add relevant fans & guards - £12.00 exc VAT Change Radiator to ThermoChill HE120.3 (3x120mm) and add relevant fans & guards - £30.00 exc VAT Change Reservoir to Criticool Waterplant - £2 exc VAT Change Reservoir to Typhoon Quad Bay Res - no charge! Upgrade Pump to Eheim 1250 - £10 exc VAT Upgrade Pump to Hydor L30 - £2.50 exc VAT Change Tubing to Tygon - £9.00 __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 10:11 PM	Thread Starter #23
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	I'd like a pump that's relatively quiet but still pumps a decent amount water __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 10:16 PM	#24
SIK_L_CELL Cowboy From Hell Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 225 Rep Power: 0	Looks good, just a couple of suggestions. You should use 2 fans in a push/pull config with shrouds. Also the gpu block is it the solid one with the barbs horizontal to the card? (pic if you can) As far as the pump use a swiftech mcp600 or aquaxtreme, they are exactly the same. They are ultra quiet and provide the flow that the DD blocks love. __________________ FX-55 X850xt DFI SLI-DR Gskill LE 05 - 8152 03 - 17169 01 - 38020 AM3 - 102443

Aug 1, 2004, 10:17 PM	Thread Starter #25
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	what about the three pumps listed? __________________

Aug 1, 2004, 10:26 PM	Thread Starter #27
tastyweat Lurking Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The void Posts: 4,794 Rep Power: 75 System Specs	oh that's a point... are the pumps respectably small? don't have to be tiny... but smaller than the asetek one! - the eheims look decent - what is a good l/h rate? I have the choice between 600, 700 and 1200... would 700 be sufficient? this is the gpu block - __________________