Need help & suggestion for first ever h20 rig

nitolbot · Sep 3, 2004, 08:59 PM

Hi. im new to the forum & new to watercooling. I have done some research & bought some gear. I inted to build a watercool rig with a abit ic7 max3 mobo, p4 2.6c cpu & rad 9800 pro 256 MB card (left oder specs out as I dont think they will eb neessary for my questions if im worng please let me know what other specs I should list) on a custom built hulk theme midtower casing (gonna do modding myself ).
Heres the kit I have already bought
[color=#333333]http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?CateID=31&ID=187[/color]
I know this isnt a hardcore cooling kit but this is all I could afford for the time being & I thought i would start with a kit before customizing my own atercooling stuff. As you can see from the review here the cooling REALLY isnt that well for this kit
[color=#333333]http://www.overclockercafe.com/Revi...ing_Kit/pg4.htm[/color]
I havent put togather a test rig yet from this review Im pretty sure my SP94 & ZALMAN VGA heatpipe (with opt fan) can outperform this rig. So I was thinking ill try to improve the cooling as much as possible. heres how the manual tells me to hook the array up:
Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> vga blck ---> 2n rad ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe.
Heres how I was thinking to setup array:
Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> 2n rad ---> vga blck ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe.

Q1 Will this increase my cooling or make it worse?

I also was thinking of putting in another rad & strapping it outside the casing & building the following array:
Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> 3rd rad which I will buy or pull from an engine --->vga blck ---> 2n rad ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe.

Q2 My worry for this setup up is since I will have to increase tubing because im adding another rad but will be using the same pump will there be a decrease in flow i:e: decrease performance ?

Finally For coolant I will use normal water with a drop or two of UV dye & some anti fungi which i will get from a fish shop. Im thinking of not using the anti freeze supplied with the kit because in the forum threads I read they can be corrosive & since I live in bangladesh the chances of us having a subzero temp. is the same as a GF4 4600 ti beating a rad 9700 pro.

Q3 For this I was wondering does the antifreeze actually helps decrease the heat or just stops the water from freezing? should I use any other additives to increase performance?

I wish to OC my fsb to atleast 250 & run the radeon 9800 pro 256 at XT speeds (i will add ramsinks to it). I ran a radeon 9800 non pro at 425 core with zalman heatpipe & abit is7 with p4 2.6c ran at 250 fsb with sp94 & 90 fan in a rig 24/7 without any problems. I wish to ATLEATST match this performance.

Also if any of you have any suggestions or comments please feel free to drop in a line. Since the case is going to be custom built I have a lot of control over how I can setup the array. any help will be greatly appreciated. thank you for your time

WisMerHill · Sep 5, 2004, 12:20 PM

Well, you seem to have been doing your homework

First off, welcome to driverheaven.net hope you'll have good time here.

Q1) Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> vga blck ---> 2n rad ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe <-- this would still be the prefered setup, basicly keeping the heating and cooling parts away from eachother instead of "mixing" . I only use 1rad myself so can't test for you but my gut tells me you'll get a higher mediate temp if you and to do it the way you suggested. You might wanna try it tho because of your custommade case you'll have plenty of options to still seperate the warm and cool components, just try it outside of the case when leak testing for instance

Q2) Flow isn't the prime perfomance thing everyone believes it to be in watercooling, even if it would really lower your flow you'd probably won't notice a large increase in temps. offcourse it can be if you don't set it up right and that pump your gonna use isn't one of the most powerfull.

Q3) Yes the antifreeze actually helps decrease the heat, it does because it makes the water better in taking up heat.

IMO) after reading a few reviews of this set i would probably recommend you to take another. there are some bad annoyances to this setup and it's low performance and running 250fsb is fairly stressfull. read the conclusion from bjorn3d: http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=656&pageID=923
When you already consider a custombuild case it would be just as easy to add your own custom watercooling setup. an eheim pump can be found fairly cheap in your petstore for instance, an old rad from the heatingsystem out of a car is found at a cardump, tubing is found everywhere and so you only have to buy the waterblocks, something i advise against to make yourself when never had experience with watercooling. It probably cost a bit more in the end but at a much greater feeling of accomplisment and a lot better performance at probably a lower soundlevel.
I run now run 250fsb 100% stable and heaven't even reached the max by far, cpu is now at 10x250=2500mhz (original a amd64 3500+ at 2.2ghz) but my noiselevel is only about 23-26 dB, something me and my partner appreciate allot.

G@MeBoY · Sep 5, 2004, 05:39 PM

I would also recommend to set the system in order mainframe->cpu->chpst.->vga (or you can go vga-->chpst. set it to most suite you and have tubbing bend as little as possible)

You will see when you set up everyyhing that watter (antifreeze) runs at almost the same temps in start of the loop and at the end of loop. It warms up at certain level after an hour or soo (with your current radiator even faster) and stays at that level.
Now, radiator is EXTREMLY important and air flow trough it. I would suggest that you find LARGER radiator (from car heating sys.) and replace the one from the kit. That small radiator willl get you nowhere.

Flow rate trough sistem is not that immportant, it is important to be at least 250l/h for optimum cooling. And I mean 250l/h flow trough system, not what pump rating says. If pump rating is 250l/h you can expect that in system it will drop to 150l/h maybe even more, depends on resistance that watter encounters. I use 1000l/h pump just to make shure

nitolbot · Sep 5, 2004, 06:08 PM

Hey gameboy & NL thx for the reply & props. I usually try to do my HW b4 I take on a project cause from my exp. it really helps in the long run.

I think I will add another large rad. outside the box since flow isnt much of a prob. & will fit it with a 120 fan & put it someplace outside the case. that should keep the water to ambient temp. or close. so my final setup is
Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> vga blck ---> 3rd rad---> 2n rad ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe (Chpset ill use aircooling)
will this be redundant? or as many rad. I add to the array increases the performance?

If the antifreeze makes the water soak up heat easier then
I will add it but how can I fight corrosion?

I had not seen the Bjorn3d review of the kit & your right the results here seems VERY lackluster. Is there anyway Ican increase the performance? (other than adding an extra rad.) or is this becase of the waterblock design & im stuck with it?

Is there any h20 cooling method with which I can perhaps chill the water? (dont want to do peltier too risky & xpnsive)
thx again for taking the time to reply to my noobish questions

WisMerHill · Sep 6, 2004, 12:52 PM

To fight corrosion, alge and get better heatconducting water there are several products on the market which will do that, waterwetter is one : http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp

and to activly cool your water more is only achievable by getting a bigger rad with a bigger fan, the only thing after that is using phase cooling in a reservoir which is too pricey and cumbersome.
To most easiest way would just be too take a big reservoir of at least 2-3 liters, this because it won't heat up as fast as the tiny amount in the kingwin set, it's the way i would choose in your situation, lowest cost and easy to incorperate since your doing a custom case.
And remember, your temps never will be lower then the enviroment your in, a given fact in watercooling, it cools great but will never go below ambient roomtemps..

nitolbot · Sep 8, 2004, 05:48 AM

Hi NL. Thx for the link but from the vdo of how waterwetter works I dont think there will be signifacant performance increase in adding it other than corrosion since I am planning on building an airtight selfcontained cooling array. Here is the final points that I have gathered from what I found on the net & the replies to these threads. If anyof my assumptions are wrong please leave some remarks so I can rethink my design.

1. The temp. at the begining of the array & the ending of the array will be almost same so I should focus on keeping the the total temp. down instead of breaking up the the rad. to cool the water from the cpu block to the vga block.

2. De-ionized distilled water is nonconductive & will not short electrical componants out incase of a leak. But if I add other additives to deionized water, i:e: like antifreeze, dye antialgae etc. it will loose its nonconductiveness (hope thats a word

)I did some research & found that the water they use for injections in hospitals are deionized & distilled I am thinking about using them ion the system since I dont have the knowhow of deionizing water myself. I will add 2-3 drops of UV dye & some anti algae (dont wnat the array to have its own ecosystem

). My questions here are will this increase the conductiveness past the 600 mark which is needed to short out electrical componants? (just asking for educated guesses here). Or should I leave out the anti algae too since distilled water shouldnt promote algae growth?

3. The more water you have in your system & outside the case the closer it will be to the ambient temp. This is why I am planning on using a really big car radiator which I will fit on top of my case in the system so that it can double as a resorvoir too.

4. Watertight doesnot mean airtight. Even if I "bleed" my cooling array & there arent any leaks, air might sip into it through cracks which are too small for water molecules to pass through. Making an airtight system will truly keep the array maintanance free.

As I stated that I am VERY new at this & this is my first H2O system. so if I am assuming anything wrong or I could do it better or what I am doing is overkill PLEASE let me know. :P

pr0digal jenius · Sep 8, 2004, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitolbot

Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> vga blck ---> 2n rad ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe.
Heres how I was thinking to setup array:
Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> 2n rad ---> vga blck ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe.

Q1 Will this increase my cooling or make it worse?

if it were me i'd use Y-adapters and have it go(___drawn because it deleted my spaces..lol):

________________________CPU----radiator---mainframe
mainframe--->y adapter---<
________________________GPU----radiator---mainframe

this way you essentially have 2 loops of piping running and it will probably end up looking much cleaner and you have more optiosn as to where to put stuffas the CPU and GPU won't be connected by a hose

WisMerHill · Sep 8, 2004, 09:32 AM

nitolbot, i think you've got it all now, but as you say yourself it might be overkill but offcourse that depends on how far you'll go.
Personnally i only use 1 rad because i only have one rule considering a h20 setup, it needs to fit within my Lian-Li pc65 case, period.

And to be honest, i run with low temps and run with a 250 "fsb". B

pr0d might have a point as well with his Y adapter tho i never recommend those things myself cause i don't like it, no real motivation i know but i do think they usually look bad and i find the appearance of my pc important as well. I have no technical reason not to use those except when having a low pressurepump that would have difficulties supplying both channels with enough pressure.

nitolbot · Sep 13, 2004, 05:19 PM

Ok designed the array & ordered the stuff. will let you guys know how it went & will up pics of the rig when im done. It should take about a month for me to get all the gear I ordered so....

I was just thinking what if I put a peltier or two right against my radiator shouldnt that cool the water more than any fans?
nyway if any1 has any other comments feel free to post it

G@MeBoY · Sep 14, 2004, 12:41 AM

NO ! You dont put peltier on radiator ! Peltier needs to be cooled like a CPU, or even better ! The more you cool peltier more the peltier will cool ! It has two sides, the one that cools and the one that needs to be cooled in order for the one below to cool !

In order of apperiance: -->CPU-->cold plate-->pelter-->watter block or :
-->CPU-->cold plate-->peltier-->cold plate (larger)-->peltier-->watter block-->watter sistem with "bong"

Sep 3, 2004, 08:59 PM	#1
nitolbot DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	Need help & suggestion for first ever h20 rig Hi. im new to the forum & new to watercooling. I have done some research & bought some gear. I inted to build a watercool rig with a abit ic7 max3 mobo, p4 2.6c cpu & rad 9800 pro 256 MB card (left oder specs out as I dont think they will eb neessary for my questions if im worng please let me know what other specs I should list) on a custom built hulk theme midtower casing (gonna do modding myself ). Heres the kit I have already bought [color=#333333]http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?CateID=31&ID=187[/color] I know this isnt a hardcore cooling kit but this is all I could afford for the time being & I thought i would start with a kit before customizing my own atercooling stuff. As you can see from the review here the cooling REALLY isnt that well for this kit [color=#333333]http://www.overclockercafe.com/Revi...ing_Kit/pg4.htm[/color] I havent put togather a test rig yet from this review Im pretty sure my SP94 & ZALMAN VGA heatpipe (with opt fan) can outperform this rig. So I was thinking ill try to improve the cooling as much as possible. heres how the manual tells me to hook the array up: Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> vga blck ---> 2n rad ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe. Heres how I was thinking to setup array: Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> 2n rad ---> vga blck ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe. Q1 Will this increase my cooling or make it worse? I also was thinking of putting in another rad & strapping it outside the casing & building the following array: Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> 3rd rad which I will buy or pull from an engine --->vga blck ---> 2n rad ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe. Q2 My worry for this setup up is since I will have to increase tubing because im adding another rad but will be using the same pump will there be a decrease in flow i:e: decrease performance ? Finally For coolant I will use normal water with a drop or two of UV dye & some anti fungi which i will get from a fish shop. Im thinking of not using the anti freeze supplied with the kit because in the forum threads I read they can be corrosive & since I live in bangladesh the chances of us having a subzero temp. is the same as a GF4 4600 ti beating a rad 9700 pro. Q3 For this I was wondering does the antifreeze actually helps decrease the heat or just stops the water from freezing? should I use any other additives to increase performance? I wish to OC my fsb to atleast 250 & run the radeon 9800 pro 256 at XT speeds (i will add ramsinks to it). I ran a radeon 9800 non pro at 425 core with zalman heatpipe & abit is7 with p4 2.6c ran at 250 fsb with sp94 & 90 fan in a rig 24/7 without any problems. I wish to ATLEATST match this performance. Also if any of you have any suggestions or comments please feel free to drop in a line. Since the case is going to be custom built I have a lot of control over how I can setup the array. any help will be greatly appreciated. thank you for your time

Sep 5, 2004, 12:20 PM	#2
WisMerHill DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 468 Rep Power: 0	Well, you seem to have been doing your homework First off, welcome to driverheaven.net hope you'll have good time here. Q1) Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> vga blck ---> 2n rad ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe <-- this would still be the prefered setup, basicly keeping the heating and cooling parts away from eachother instead of "mixing" . I only use 1rad myself so can't test for you but my gut tells me you'll get a higher mediate temp if you and to do it the way you suggested. You might wanna try it tho because of your custommade case you'll have plenty of options to still seperate the warm and cool components, just try it outside of the case when leak testing for instance Q2) Flow isn't the prime perfomance thing everyone believes it to be in watercooling, even if it would really lower your flow you'd probably won't notice a large increase in temps. offcourse it can be if you don't set it up right and that pump your gonna use isn't one of the most powerfull. Q3) Yes the antifreeze actually helps decrease the heat, it does because it makes the water better in taking up heat. IMO) after reading a few reviews of this set i would probably recommend you to take another. there are some bad annoyances to this setup and it's low performance and running 250fsb is fairly stressfull. read the conclusion from bjorn3d: http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=656&pageID=923 When you already consider a custombuild case it would be just as easy to add your own custom watercooling setup. an eheim pump can be found fairly cheap in your petstore for instance, an old rad from the heatingsystem out of a car is found at a cardump, tubing is found everywhere and so you only have to buy the waterblocks, something i advise against to make yourself when never had experience with watercooling. It probably cost a bit more in the end but at a much greater feeling of accomplisment and a lot better performance at probably a lower soundlevel. I run now run 250fsb 100% stable and heaven't even reached the max by far, cpu is now at 10x250=2500mhz (original a amd64 3500+ at 2.2ghz) but my noiselevel is only about 23-26 dB, something me and my partner appreciate allot. __________________ [color=sandybrown][color=white] [/color] [color=white][color=white]M[/color][color=white]y Computer[/color]: [/color][color=white]3DMark2001[/color][color=white] - [/color][color=white]3Dmark2003[/color][color=white] - [/color][color=white]3DMark200[/color][color=white]5[/color][color=white] - [/color][color=white]PCMark2004[/color][/color]

Sep 5, 2004, 06:08 PM	Thread Starter #4
nitolbot DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	FINALLY someone replied Hey gameboy & NL thx for the reply & props. I usually try to do my HW b4 I take on a project cause from my exp. it really helps in the long run. I think I will add another large rad. outside the box since flow isnt much of a prob. & will fit it with a 120 fan & put it someplace outside the case. that should keep the water to ambient temp. or close. so my final setup is Liquid cooler mainframe ---> cpu blk ---> vga blck ---> 3rd rad---> 2n rad ---> backto Liquid cooler mainframe (Chpset ill use aircooling) will this be redundant? or as many rad. I add to the array increases the performance? If the antifreeze makes the water soak up heat easier then I will add it but how can I fight corrosion? I had not seen the Bjorn3d review of the kit & your right the results here seems VERY lackluster. Is there anyway Ican increase the performance? (other than adding an extra rad.) or is this becase of the waterblock design & im stuck with it? Is there any h20 cooling method with which I can perhaps chill the water? (dont want to do peltier too risky & xpnsive) thx again for taking the time to reply to my noobish questions

Sep 6, 2004, 12:52 PM	#5
WisMerHill DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 468 Rep Power: 0	To fight corrosion, alge and get better heatconducting water there are several products on the market which will do that, waterwetter is one : http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp and to activly cool your water more is only achievable by getting a bigger rad with a bigger fan, the only thing after that is using phase cooling in a reservoir which is too pricey and cumbersome. To most easiest way would just be too take a big reservoir of at least 2-3 liters, this because it won't heat up as fast as the tiny amount in the kingwin set, it's the way i would choose in your situation, lowest cost and easy to incorperate since your doing a custom case. And remember, your temps never will be lower then the enviroment your in, a given fact in watercooling, it cools great but will never go below ambient roomtemps.. __________________ [color=sandybrown][color=white] [/color] [color=white][color=white]M[/color][color=white]y Computer[/color]: [/color][color=white]3DMark2001[/color][color=white] - [/color][color=white]3Dmark2003[/color][color=white] - [/color][color=white]3DMark200[/color][color=white]5[/color][color=white] - [/color][color=white]PCMark2004[/color][/color]

Sep 8, 2004, 09:32 AM	#8
WisMerHill DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 468 Rep Power: 0	nitolbot, i think you've got it all now, but as you say yourself it might be overkill but offcourse that depends on how far you'll go. Personnally i only use 1 rad because i only have one rule considering a h20 setup, it needs to fit within my Lian-Li pc65 case, period. And to be honest, i run with low temps and run with a 250 "fsb". B pr0d might have a point as well with his Y adapter tho i never recommend those things myself cause i don't like it, no real motivation i know but i do think they usually look bad and i find the appearance of my pc important as well. I have no technical reason not to use those except when having a low pressurepump that would have difficulties supplying both channels with enough pressure. __________________ [color=sandybrown][color=white] [/color] [color=white][color=white]M[/color][color=white]y Computer[/color]: [/color][color=white]3DMark2001[/color][color=white] - [/color][color=white]3Dmark2003[/color][color=white] - [/color][color=white]3DMark200[/color][color=white]5[/color][color=white] - [/color][color=white]PCMark2004[/color][/color]

Sep 5, 2004, 05:39 PM	#3
G@MeBoY makes your mouse tremmble! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Serbia,Livingroom Posts: 247 Rep Power: 0	I would also recommend to set the system in order mainframe->cpu->chpst.->vga (or you can go vga-->chpst. set it to most suite you and have tubbing bend as little as possible) You will see when you set up everyyhing that watter (antifreeze) runs at almost the same temps in start of the loop and at the end of loop. It warms up at certain level after an hour or soo (with your current radiator even faster) and stays at that level. Now, radiator is EXTREMLY important and air flow trough it. I would suggest that you find LARGER radiator (from car heating sys.) and replace the one from the kit. That small radiator willl get you nowhere. Flow rate trough sistem is not that immportant, it is important to be at least 250l/h for optimum cooling. And I mean 250l/h flow trough system, not what pump rating says. If pump rating is 250l/h you can expect that in system it will drop to 150l/h maybe even more, depends on resistance that watter encounters. I use 1000l/h pump just to make shure __________________ -= G@MeBoY =- ::Full color with 3DNOW! tech:: XP2000+ thoroughbred @ 10x230FSB - watter cooled by home made sistem - EpoX RDA3I - ASUS V9950SE/Td @470/820 - 2x256 DDR400 V-Data - !Live Player - 80GB Maxtor DiamondMax9+7200rpm - Tagan TG-380 black PSU - chieftek Matrix case - WinXP SP1

Sep 8, 2004, 05:48 AM	Thread Starter #6
nitolbot DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	Hi NL. Thx for the link but from the vdo of how waterwetter works I dont think there will be signifacant performance increase in adding it other than corrosion since I am planning on building an airtight selfcontained cooling array. Here is the final points that I have gathered from what I found on the net & the replies to these threads. If anyof my assumptions are wrong please leave some remarks so I can rethink my design. 1. The temp. at the begining of the array & the ending of the array will be almost same so I should focus on keeping the the total temp. down instead of breaking up the the rad. to cool the water from the cpu block to the vga block. 2. De-ionized distilled water is nonconductive & will not short electrical componants out incase of a leak. But if I add other additives to deionized water, i:e: like antifreeze, dye antialgae etc. it will loose its nonconductiveness (hope thats a word )I did some research & found that the water they use for injections in hospitals are deionized & distilled I am thinking about using them ion the system since I dont have the knowhow of deionizing water myself. I will add 2-3 drops of UV dye & some anti algae (dont wnat the array to have its own ecosystem ). My questions here are will this increase the conductiveness past the 600 mark which is needed to short out electrical componants? (just asking for educated guesses here). Or should I leave out the anti algae too since distilled water shouldnt promote algae growth? 3. The more water you have in your system & outside the case the closer it will be to the ambient temp. This is why I am planning on using a really big car radiator which I will fit on top of my case in the system so that it can double as a resorvoir too. 4. Watertight doesnot mean airtight. Even if I "bleed" my cooling array & there arent any leaks, air might sip into it through cracks which are too small for water molecules to pass through. Making an airtight system will truly keep the array maintanance free. As I stated that I am VERY new at this & this is my first H2O system. so if I am assuming anything wrong or I could do it better or what I am doing is overkill PLEASE let me know. :P

Sep 13, 2004, 05:19 PM	Thread Starter #9
nitolbot DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	Ok designed the array & ordered the stuff. will let you guys know how it went & will up pics of the rig when im done. It should take about a month for me to get all the gear I ordered so.... I was just thinking what if I put a peltier or two right against my radiator shouldnt that cool the water more than any fans? nyway if any1 has any other comments feel free to post it

Sep 14, 2004, 12:41 AM	#10
G@MeBoY makes your mouse tremmble! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Serbia,Livingroom Posts: 247 Rep Power: 0	NO ! You dont put peltier on radiator ! Peltier needs to be cooled like a CPU, or even better ! The more you cool peltier more the peltier will cool ! It has two sides, the one that cools and the one that needs to be cooled in order for the one below to cool ! In order of apperiance: -->CPU-->cold plate-->pelter-->watter block or : -->CPU-->cold plate-->peltier-->cold plate (larger)-->peltier-->watter block-->watter sistem with "bong" __________________ -= G@MeBoY =- ::Full color with 3DNOW! tech:: XP2000+ thoroughbred @ 10x230FSB - watter cooled by home made sistem - EpoX RDA3I - ASUS V9950SE/Td @470/820 - 2x256 DDR400 V-Data - !Live Player - 80GB Maxtor DiamondMax9+7200rpm - Tagan TG-380 black PSU - chieftek Matrix case - WinXP SP1