Help with a simple PC OC.

totally_tonedef · Oct 9, 2004, 04:24 AM

Hello, my first time here and I will come strait forward and let you know that I am a complete newb, so please bare with me

.

See my situation is one of, I am a poor college student and my 3.XX ghz processor 2gb ram is a long ways away, so I need to give my dinky P4 2ghz , 1.99GHz (it gives me both of those numbers btw) 512mb ram a little boost. Also since I am poor I need to be able to survive with a stock fan.

Now I know practically nothing about all this bios flashing and what have you, so lay-terms are a must here

. I just want to be able to play CS:S and not get 10 fps in a gun fight. I know it isn't my graphics card because I have a x800PRO with the latest Omega Drivers...so I am pretty sure it is the rest of my system restricting me, so any help would be most grateful!

Thank you for your time,

-Tonedef

totally_tonedef · Oct 10, 2004, 12:53 AM

No takers??

Nacht · Oct 10, 2004, 01:35 AM

what kind of motherboard is it?

Judas · Oct 10, 2004, 02:08 AM

A full list of system specs... including the kind of air flow your getting... The type (retail/OEM? ) heatsink you've got..

IF the system is a Prebuilt (Compaq/Dell/HP/etc.)

What kind of software you are running.... any active background programs... (anything nasty? )

i recommend you go to http://www.pcpitstop.com/ and run the full test and report back with any problems it saw.. (yellow/red flags and if they were able to help you solve some of them) also mention the score you got.... and if you could send us a link to your run

(it's all free and i would seriously recommend that site to anyone.. they hate Gator as well

)

I personally don't have a whole lot of experience with Intel system anymore... haven't touched up on any for a good while...

But as soon as you can get all the information you can get about your machine.... i'm SURE there will be a bunch of people around to help you out (also consider, it's Thanks Giving weekend in Canada, so there are a good amount of people not going to be around for a few days, including me)

totally_tonedef · Oct 10, 2004, 09:14 AM

Alrighty then. I have a prebuilt Alienware that is about 2 years old, so I have no clue about its airflow or heatskin. As for background programs, no gator or spyware here. Here are my pcpitstop scores http://www.pcpitstop.com/techexpress...T49WTKJYRSCLCE .

Thanks for the responses!! If there is anything else you need to know just ask again.

-Tonedef

Shinjikun · Oct 10, 2004, 04:08 PM

Those links aren't working for me.

If you have an X800 Pro then you should at least be getting playable frame rates; even with a P4 2.0 GHz CPU and 512 MB of ram.

Do you happen to know how many watts your power supply is? Also what drivers do you have installed for the video card?

totally_tonedef · Oct 10, 2004, 04:16 PM

Alright the links should work now, sorry about that. As for my power supply it is 380 watts and I get good FPS until a battle, I am pretty sure that it is not my graphics card at all...just has a feel like it is mt CPU slowing down. I have the most recent Omega drivers installed btw.

Shinjikun · Oct 10, 2004, 04:23 PM

Strange issue. Sure the CPU can be limiting the video card but an X800 Pro is still beastly enough to not slow down in the CS series.

Try reinstalling your chipset drivers, reboot, and then redetect your SmartGart settings (even if they appear ok). Reboot again and see if AGP 8X is enabled.

What resolution are you playing at? Are you using any AA or AF as well? Is Catalyst AI on in the latest set you are using?

totally_tonedef · Oct 10, 2004, 04:36 PM

I have done all that. I run at 1024x768 all settings are on high...but even if I go off the map into the black, when spectating, I get only about 50 FPS. But that is only on full MP games, in stress test and in empty maps, my FPS is great at like 60ish running around and all. Man Shinjikun I really am having a blast with my comuter here huh

. I get all the eye candy, but my computer just can't hadle a bunch of moving and calculating all at once...

Nacht · Oct 10, 2004, 05:26 PM

lol. since it is limited to online play, it is definitely your cpu and memory. the netcode is all worked by the cpu, and games that have lack luster or even mediocre net code will cause performance issues.

those links still dont work for me...but if you're running a semi-decent mobo then you should be able to easily OC a little bit from the bios. if you happen to have one of the AI series from asus then you dont even have to do it yourself

totally_tonedef · Oct 10, 2004, 07:46 PM

Those pics SHOULD work now...I am pretty sure this time. I really would like to OC this CPU...but I am not going to touch ANYTHING until I know it will not kill my only computer for a while. That is why I am sking you guys.

totally_tonedef · Oct 16, 2004, 11:09 AM

Bump...

HawgsHead · Oct 18, 2004, 02:58 AM

Well,I will add this.You are at the right place tone_def!These folks know there stuff!!!Listen to them!...And give them a little time.I have an Alienware rig also.What case do you have?The Dragon or the Preditor?And youre links still dont work.

HawgsHead · Oct 18, 2004, 04:07 AM

He has 2 80MM fans in front of the HD's and 2 80mm fans in the back of the case.There's also 1 80mm fan beside the video card on the side of the case pulling air out.The airflow is great if he hasnt messed with the factory wireing job.You can hardly see any wires.

totally_tonedef · Oct 18, 2004, 09:25 PM

Thanks HawgsHead! I was starting to give up. You are right about where I have fan slots though the bottom front and back are empty. I get about 30C in my processor and 32C in the system zone.

As for my pics, I think I got them to work so here ya go:

CPU

Cache

Mainboard

Memory

SPD

Hope this all helps

HawgsHead · Oct 18, 2004, 09:41 PM

Say what????Are you telling me that you dont have ANY cooling fans in the front or the back of youre case????Do you have the Dragon case or the Preditor case?And what kind of motherboard do you have?8 times out of 10,Alienware will have an ASUS MoBo with an Intel machine.Although sometimes they will have an Intel board.

totally_tonedef · Oct 18, 2004, 10:06 PM

lol...I have fans I was just saying I still have room for 2 more. And I have an Intel board.

HawgsHead · Oct 18, 2004, 10:42 PM

Whew...You kinda scared me there.Hmmmm you have an Intel board huh.Well,I'm really a greenpea at OCing too.But I know a heck of alot more than I did 2 months ago about the subject.If i'm not mistaken,you cant OC an Intel board at all.Intel really frowns on OCing.I'm sure someone else will comfirm what I am telling you.Sorry. I hope I'm wrong but I dont think I am.

Zardon · Oct 18, 2004, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawgsHead

Whew...You kinda scared me there.Hmmmm you have an Intel board huh.Well,I'm really a greenpea at OCing too.But I know a heck of alot more than I did 2 months ago about the subject.If i'm not mistaken,you cant OC an Intel board at all.Intel really frowns on OCing.I'm sure someone else will comfirm what I am telling you.Sorry. I hope I'm wrong but I dont think I am.

you can use a tool which INTEL developed to safely overclock their own boards. its called INTEL CONTROL CENTER and if you go into the TUNE option then BURNIN you can raise the FSB by 4%, which I know isnt a lot but you will be running your CPU at 3580mhz from 3400mhz without any work whatsoever, the machine will reboot, play a little tune and alter the bios. At the time of posting it appears INTEL site isnt working for me, but the tool is available from major geeks http://www.majorgeeks.com/download4028.html

Good luck, just make sure you check your motherboard is a built by INTEL board first.

totally_tonedef · Oct 18, 2004, 10:59 PM

So you are saying there is no pushing my 2GH processor to at least a 2.2?? BTW my board was not compatible with that program.

NeoTribal · Oct 18, 2004, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by totally_tonedef

So you are saying there is no pushing my 2GH processor to at least a 2.2?? BTW my board was not compatible with that program.

If your BIOS supports it, you may be able to overclock from in there... but be careful, and make sure you know what you're changing in there!

Lots of trial and error to do, but if you want to be safe, don't change voltages, and if you have stock cooling, don't go over a 10% overclock (just a personal opinion).

You can raise your FSB to overclock, getting a better overall speed, but if your RAM isn't up to the task, that may not succeed, in which case you could raise the CPU multiplier instead.

I don't know what kind of results people have gotten with overclocking RDRAM...

Again, your mileage may vary on your particular setup... If things get too hot, swap the CPU heatsink/fan for a better one! Or, add more case fans! Or both!

Good luck!

totally_tonedef · Oct 18, 2004, 11:34 PM

Well thats the thing I have no idea what to do and to be safe I figured I would ask you guys here what to do specifically. I have never Oced anything before, let alone know what to do if I screw up.

NeoTribal · Oct 18, 2004, 11:35 PM

I can also see why your PC is not taking full advantage of your awesome graphics card...

Look at the "Mainboard" tab in CPU-Z.

AGP Transfer Rate: 4x, Max Supported: 4x

There's not much you can do about that... Sorry!

Edit: That card is AGP 8x...

NeoTribal · Oct 18, 2004, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by totally_tonedef

Well thats the thing I have no idea what to do and to be safe I figured I would ask you guys here what to do specifically. I have never Oced anything before, let alone know what to do if I screw up.

Well, your stock FSB is 100mhz, with a multiplier of 20x. this will give you the stock 2000mhz.

If you go into BIOS and try bumping the FSB to 105, that will give you 2100mhz, 110 FSB will yield 2200mhz.

I would try upping it in small increments and see if you can reach your desired 2.2ghz @110FSB.

Make sure you use a program like "Motherboard Monitor" to check and make sure your Temps are not too high during this whole process!

HawgsHead · Oct 19, 2004, 01:05 AM

Tonedef.If youre not comfortable adding parts to youre Alienware system they will do it for you for the cost of parts and shipping.No labor.Provided you baught the system from them new.And they do guarantee there work for 1 year.

NeoTribal · Oct 19, 2004, 03:40 AM

BTW: I looked around on a few forums, there seems to be no ability in that intel mobo's bios to modify the multiplier or fsb settings at all.

As Zardon suggested, a software overclock in windows may work for you. Unfortunately since that Intel software does not support your board, you may have to try some 3rd party software...

A few prime examples I've heard of are SoftFSB and CPUFSB... you might want to give them a try if you want to continue down this route!

If it were my pc though, sometime down the road, I'd save up some cash to get a new motherboard that supports 8xAGP, DDR ram and overclocking within the bios (with some DDR ram to go with it).

If you got some decent ram and a good cooling solution for your cpu, you could overclock the crap out of it

That's just me though, I'm a bit nuts.

Either way, I hope we helped answer some questions!

totally_tonedef · Oct 19, 2004, 08:31 AM

Well I have plans to work a new MB, CPU, and RAM in, but I am in college paying rent with a 6.50 an hour job. On top of that I owe my dad like 1000 so I was just trying to get my comp suped up a bit 'til I do get those things.

well I just don't know what to do. What about 'flashing bios' I head about that somewhere (like the steam forums

) can I do that and get it all nice a powerful? I am open to most anything.

HawgsHead · Oct 19, 2004, 03:00 PM

Be VERY careful how you flash the BIOS on an Alienware machine!!!!Sometimes they have there own BIOS's.Call Alienware support before doing this!!!Support phone number is 866-287-6727.The techs. are VERY good!And you do not spend more than 10 minutes on hold,if that long.Also consult there website.TONS of downloads are there.You will have to sign in with a password if you do not have one.To obtain a password you will need youre Alienware customer number.But if you didnt buy the machine from them new you're SOL.

Oct 9, 2004, 04:24 AM	#1
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	Help with a simple PC OC. Hello, my first time here and I will come strait forward and let you know that I am a complete newb, so please bare with me . See my situation is one of, I am a poor college student and my 3.XX ghz processor 2gb ram is a long ways away, so I need to give my dinky P4 2ghz , 1.99GHz (it gives me both of those numbers btw) 512mb ram a little boost. Also since I am poor I need to be able to survive with a stock fan. Now I know practically nothing about all this bios flashing and what have you, so lay-terms are a must here . I just want to be able to play CS:S and not get 10 fps in a gun fight. I know it isn't my graphics card because I have a x800PRO with the latest Omega Drivers...so I am pretty sure it is the rest of my system restricting me, so any help would be most grateful! Thank you for your time, -Tonedef

Oct 10, 2004, 09:14 AM	Thread Starter #5
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	Alrighty then. I have a prebuilt Alienware that is about 2 years old, so I have no clue about its airflow or heatskin. As for background programs, no gator or spyware here. Here are my pcpitstop scores http://www.pcpitstop.com/techexpress...T49WTKJYRSCLCE . Thanks for the responses!! If there is anything else you need to know just ask again. -Tonedef Last edited by totally_tonedef; Oct 18, 2004 at 09:26 PM.

Oct 10, 2004, 04:08 PM	#6
Shinjikun 第3 子供 Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Nerv HQ Posts: 1,319 Rep Power: 0	Those links aren't working for me. If you have an X800 Pro then you should at least be getting playable frame rates; even with a P4 2.0 GHz CPU and 512 MB of ram. Do you happen to know how many watts your power supply is? Also what drivers do you have installed for the video card? __________________ Xfire: [Shinji1225 \ Status] A7N8X-E Deluxe Athlon XP 2500+ (@ 2.2 GHz 11x200 MHz FSB) Corsair TwinX XMS 1GB PC3200 Dual Channel (2-2-3-5) [color=red]ATi [/color][color=white]Radeon 9500 Pro (@ 330\310) \ [/color][color=white]Omega Catalyst Drivers v2.5.90[/color] [color=white]Ultra X-Connect 500W PSU[/color]

Oct 10, 2004, 04:23 PM	#8
Shinjikun 第3 子供 Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Nerv HQ Posts: 1,319 Rep Power: 0	Strange issue. Sure the CPU can be limiting the video card but an X800 Pro is still beastly enough to not slow down in the CS series. Try reinstalling your chipset drivers, reboot, and then redetect your SmartGart settings (even if they appear ok). Reboot again and see if AGP 8X is enabled. What resolution are you playing at? Are you using any AA or AF as well? Is Catalyst AI on in the latest set you are using? __________________ Xfire: [Shinji1225 \ Status] A7N8X-E Deluxe Athlon XP 2500+ (@ 2.2 GHz 11x200 MHz FSB) Corsair TwinX XMS 1GB PC3200 Dual Channel (2-2-3-5) [color=red]ATi [/color][color=white]Radeon 9500 Pro (@ 330\310) \ [/color][color=white]Omega Catalyst Drivers v2.5.90[/color] [color=white]Ultra X-Connect 500W PSU[/color]

Oct 10, 2004, 07:46 PM	Thread Starter #11
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	Those pics SHOULD work now...I am pretty sure this time. I really would like to OC this CPU...but I am not going to touch ANYTHING until I know it will not kill my only computer for a while. That is why I am sking you guys. Last edited by totally_tonedef; Oct 10, 2004 at 08:11 PM.

Oct 10, 2004, 12:53 AM	Thread Starter #2
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	No takers??

Oct 10, 2004, 01:35 AM	#3
Nacht ein Krieger Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Clemson Uni Posts: 3,127 Rep Power: 0	what kind of motherboard is it?

Oct 10, 2004, 04:16 PM	Thread Starter #7
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	Alright the links should work now, sorry about that. As for my power supply it is 380 watts and I get good FPS until a battle, I am pretty sure that it is not my graphics card at all...just has a feel like it is mt CPU slowing down. I have the most recent Omega drivers installed btw.

Oct 10, 2004, 04:36 PM	Thread Starter #9
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	I have done all that. I run at 1024x768 all settings are on high...but even if I go off the map into the black, when spectating, I get only about 50 FPS. But that is only on full MP games, in stress test and in empty maps, my FPS is great at like 60ish running around and all. Man Shinjikun I really am having a blast with my comuter here huh . I get all the eye candy, but my computer just can't hadle a bunch of moving and calculating all at once...

Oct 10, 2004, 05:26 PM	#10
Nacht ein Krieger Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Clemson Uni Posts: 3,127 Rep Power: 0	lol. since it is limited to online play, it is definitely your cpu and memory. the netcode is all worked by the cpu, and games that have lack luster or even mediocre net code will cause performance issues. those links still dont work for me...but if you're running a semi-decent mobo then you should be able to easily OC a little bit from the bios. if you happen to have one of the AI series from asus then you dont even have to do it yourself

Oct 16, 2004, 11:09 AM	Thread Starter #12
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	Bump...

Oct 18, 2004, 02:58 AM	#13
HawgsHead Rest In Peace Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Danville Virginia.The United States of America"In the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob We Trust" Posts: 2,012 Rep Power: 0	Well,I will add this.You are at the right place tone_def!These folks know there stuff!!!Listen to them!...And give them a little time.I have an Alienware rig also.What case do you have?The Dragon or the Preditor?And youre links still dont work. __________________ Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation. Last edited by HawgsHead; Oct 18, 2004 at 03:03 AM.

Oct 18, 2004, 04:07 AM	#14
HawgsHead Rest In Peace Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Danville Virginia.The United States of America"In the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob We Trust" Posts: 2,012 Rep Power: 0	He has 2 80MM fans in front of the HD's and 2 80mm fans in the back of the case.There's also 1 80mm fan beside the video card on the side of the case pulling air out.The airflow is great if he hasnt messed with the factory wireing job.You can hardly see any wires. __________________ Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.

Oct 18, 2004, 09:25 PM	Thread Starter #15
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	Thanks HawgsHead! I was starting to give up. You are right about where I have fan slots though the bottom front and back are empty. I get about 30C in my processor and 32C in the system zone. As for my pics, I think I got them to work so here ya go: CPU Cache Mainboard Memory SPD Hope this all helps

Oct 18, 2004, 09:41 PM	#16
HawgsHead Rest In Peace Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Danville Virginia.The United States of America"In the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob We Trust" Posts: 2,012 Rep Power: 0	Say what????Are you telling me that you dont have ANY cooling fans in the front or the back of youre case????Do you have the Dragon case or the Preditor case?And what kind of motherboard do you have?8 times out of 10,Alienware will have an ASUS MoBo with an Intel machine.Although sometimes they will have an Intel board. __________________ Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.

Oct 18, 2004, 10:06 PM	Thread Starter #17
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	lol...I have fans I was just saying I still have room for 2 more. And I have an Intel board.

Oct 18, 2004, 10:42 PM	#18
HawgsHead Rest In Peace Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Danville Virginia.The United States of America"In the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob We Trust" Posts: 2,012 Rep Power: 0	Whew...You kinda scared me there.Hmmmm you have an Intel board huh.Well,I'm really a greenpea at OCing too.But I know a heck of alot more than I did 2 months ago about the subject.If i'm not mistaken,you cant OC an Intel board at all.Intel really frowns on OCing.I'm sure someone else will comfirm what I am telling you.Sorry. I hope I'm wrong but I dont think I am. __________________ Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.

Oct 18, 2004, 10:59 PM	Thread Starter #20
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	So you are saying there is no pushing my 2GH processor to at least a 2.2?? BTW my board was not compatible with that program.

Oct 18, 2004, 11:34 PM	Thread Starter #22
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	Well thats the thing I have no idea what to do and to be safe I figured I would ask you guys here what to do specifically. I have never Oced anything before, let alone know what to do if I screw up.

Oct 18, 2004, 11:35 PM	#23
NeoTribal 1" Lobes! =D Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 187 Rep Power: 0	I can also see why your PC is not taking full advantage of your awesome graphics card... Look at the "Mainboard" tab in CPU-Z. AGP Transfer Rate: 4x, Max Supported: 4x There's not much you can do about that... Sorry! Edit: That card is AGP 8x... __________________ To the Dark Tower Childe Roland went...

Oct 19, 2004, 01:05 AM	#25
HawgsHead Rest In Peace Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Danville Virginia.The United States of America"In the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob We Trust" Posts: 2,012 Rep Power: 0	Tonedef.If youre not comfortable adding parts to youre Alienware system they will do it for you for the cost of parts and shipping.No labor.Provided you baught the system from them new.And they do guarantee there work for 1 year. __________________ Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.

Oct 19, 2004, 03:40 AM	#26
NeoTribal 1" Lobes! =D Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 187 Rep Power: 0	BTW: I looked around on a few forums, there seems to be no ability in that intel mobo's bios to modify the multiplier or fsb settings at all. As Zardon suggested, a software overclock in windows may work for you. Unfortunately since that Intel software does not support your board, you may have to try some 3rd party software... A few prime examples I've heard of are SoftFSB and CPUFSB... you might want to give them a try if you want to continue down this route! If it were my pc though, sometime down the road, I'd save up some cash to get a new motherboard that supports 8xAGP, DDR ram and overclocking within the bios (with some DDR ram to go with it). If you got some decent ram and a good cooling solution for your cpu, you could overclock the crap out of it That's just me though, I'm a bit nuts. Either way, I hope we helped answer some questions! __________________ To the Dark Tower Childe Roland went...

Oct 19, 2004, 08:31 AM	Thread Starter #27
totally_tonedef DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 69 Rep Power: 0	Well I have plans to work a new MB, CPU, and RAM in, but I am in college paying rent with a 6.50 an hour job. On top of that I owe my dad like 1000 so I was just trying to get my comp suped up a bit 'til I do get those things. well I just don't know what to do. What about 'flashing bios' I head about that somewhere (like the steam forums ) can I do that and get it all nice a powerful? I am open to most anything.

Oct 19, 2004, 03:00 PM	#28
HawgsHead Rest In Peace Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Danville Virginia.The United States of America"In the God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob We Trust" Posts: 2,012 Rep Power: 0	Be VERY careful how you flash the BIOS on an Alienware machine!!!!Sometimes they have there own BIOS's.Call Alienware support before doing this!!!Support phone number is 866-287-6727.The techs. are VERY good!And you do not spend more than 10 minutes on hold,if that long.Also consult there website.TONS of downloads are there.You will have to sign in with a password if you do not have one.To obtain a password you will need youre Alienware customer number.But if you didnt buy the machine from them new you're SOL. __________________ Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.