I hate intelligent design

Pompey

Im not being "nit picky". If you had said "Americans dont believe evolution" that would have simply been a generalisation. But your "magnificent find" was ONLY Americans dont believe evolution, i.e Americans, and no body else reject evolution.

w/e. everyone can see what you said.

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One's inability to find an answer to a question does not imply that the question has no answer.

Sandok

Very true everyone can see it... But if you went up higher in my posts, I did write: Americans are the ones who believe least in evolution (I did write that once).

Whatever, anyways this is a hopeless topic. Who cares? I mean, once we all die, then we'll know the truth. You go to heaven/hell, I was wrong.

You see tons of black? I'm right

BWX

And you are wrong about that too- by your own chart.. which I might add is highly suspect.

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Sandok

How the hell am I wrong? Look at the chart and you'll see that you and Poland believe the least in evolution. Now Poland is at 35.4% and america is at <35.4 % which is less than 35.4%... Dude, wtf?

And it might be an old chart (1998) but I highly doubt it's wrong I only have evolution/creatism arguments with americans... And some canadians but honestly, never had this argument with anyone else no matter where I've travelled

BWX

What is the margin of error again??

hence- you are wrong in assuming that "Americans believe in it the least"

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Sandok

-_-

Fine you believe less in evolution than Europeans (by a large gap). Happy? Is that now right BWX? Am I correct now or does your margin of error render everything I say wrong?

Nacht

Sandok

I was thinking the US was mostly protestant. I havent read this anywhere, however, so I'm not going to debate it. However, christianity was started in the middle east, no matter which form of it you practice.

I most certainly did read your post. However, citing numbers and percentages don't give you free reign to make sweeping generalizations. That would be like me saying that African Americans males are dumber than average American males because of their higher failure rate in high schools. Theres more to it than that, and citing the statistic that they do fail more often does not imply that the group as a whole is less intelligent. C'mon, I know you know better than that.

Sandok

Well I've said it many times but I'll say it again...

Now from my own personal experience, only North Americans refuse to really allow evolution to be used as a "scientific" theory and must of them just call it hocus pocus.

Now why? As I've said, the northern american continent is VERY VERY VERY young compared to the rest of the world, Europe especiially (thus our nickname, the "old" contintent). I mean, America was blessed by god apparently during it's birth and well, I'm oki doki with that and don't really care but you can't refute the fact you believe in Evolution LESS than Europe. Come on, even if you don't believe the numbers I found, it's sorta a known fact by everyone...

And for your example of generalisation, I hate doing it but what else do you wanna do? Take each and every exception? We'd be here Nacht LONG after hell freezes over

Nacht

Well yes, I certainly know what you mean. Growing up in the south, I run into this alot. I was just attempting to point out that your statement made you look a little crass.

I agree that people here are probably more likely to disregard evolution. The church still has a strong influence, especially in the south.

I think this is mainly because of the way in which America was started. The first immigrants to America were strong christian puritans, and our early government was written with alot of ties to christianity and christian morals.

EDIT: fixed my retarded grammar.

BWX

No that is an old survey with no margin of error info and does not include a full spectrum of regions.. Also, who the heck knows how accurate that list is.

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Sandok

Yeah I totally agree with you... America was made by very strong religous backgrounds and that does explain what I wanted to say. Couldn't have said it even half as good as you did Nacht.

And BWX, so you are going to say that it's 100% fault? Even if it's a bit off, that it has absolutely no truth in it whatsoever?

BWX

Not saying it is, saying it could be.. Polls depend a lot on how things are asked and who you ask.. Results can be dismissed if other questions on the same poll fall into different categories.. polls are often useless.

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dehx

Before you go to far, as it looks like you already have, you should stop and realize that the entire dating system for evolutionary and modern science works on the same principle.

Carbon Dating in laymens terms basically says that you have *this amount of this molecule/atom per this fraction of time* = age of material. And it doesn't work that way.

Even astrnomers, *this star gives off this much light in this manner therefore it is this old*.

I believe evolution does occur, but not in the large proportions that everyone seems to believe without question. The amount of evolution that occurs is minimal. The erroneous dating system (which is another thing everyone seems to cling too without question, funny how europeans do what Big Brother tells them to in this manner *hehe* much <3 Sandok) was created as a scapegoat for evolution misbeliefs, and in many ways equates to what most darwinians believe to the the stupid logic behind Intelligent design and christianity.

Heres a convo between two people, one believes in Darwinism/BigBang/Evolution and one believes in God/Christianity.

EVOMAN: Hey mr ID, wassup.. you know that your belief is stupid, cause like, you believe that God created everything and when you cant prove something you just give God as an answer. How lamez0r art tho! fayg0t!!!!

GodMan: STFU n00bz0r, don't you realize you do the same thing with your faulty dating system???

*Evoman and Godman look at each other before being eaten by a pack of wild rabid babies wielding rusted sporks*


So thats just my two cents, not wanting to start a fight, but nevertheless did feel obliged to say something after reading all damn 9 pages. lol.

dehx

Actually you guys all should know better than to look at polls. What do polls tell us? That Gore was going to be president of the U.S..... that Kerry was going to be president of U.S...

Nacht

Dehx

I'm still not clear on how carbon dating is faulty. It works on the known half-life of radioactive isotopes. Therefore, all one has to do is measure the amount of decayed vs undecayed material to get a date reading. There's no logic to it, just science/math.

In any case, relative dating in geology proves that the earth is older than the bible would indicate.

Sandok

I love it when people think Carbon Dating is faulty...

Dehx, if its faulty, then ALL of our nuclear physics are wrong... That means we got no clue how nuclear engery or bombs are made, or anything else for that matter since our entire understanding of atoms would be wrong too.

You are sooooo right, its all wrong and carbon dating is a hoax.

Falstaff

your being silly...now stop that

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Sandok

Well tis true mate If we don't understand how carbon dating actually works, a lot of our science falls apart!

SFOSOK

"If cavemen and dinosaurs could write" by Sandok...

What I really hate is when someone picks apart what you say and changes your words then spends most of their arguement on proving that 1/16th of your statement is wrong therefore it must be all wrong because they are not only lazy but do not grasp the mental capacity to do so.

I'm saying there is more proof that God exists than the big bang, now thats sad but true.

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METAL!!

Zelig

Evidence for God.

Evidence for the big bang.

Feel free to edit linked articles if you feel you have any insight to add to them.

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SFOSOK

I'm sorry but the wikipedia is only evidence of your gullability and lazyness. Very sad.

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METAL!!

Maddogg6

A couple of things many here don't seem to realize about americans (at least the majority of those I've met):
1) I was taught evolution in school science class - granted - it was more of a glossing over - and more time was spent on stuff that could be proven by experiment. But ID was not introduced until after I graduated.

2) Hypocracy is a sign of non-faith. How does a priest - a suposive moral role model - justify pedophelia - did god test them and fail, leading to eternity in hell.?? Did god fuck up and make that priest a defect?
A preist should know better, that if he was having such urges - to seek help before someone gets hurt.- right? - OR did that priest get into a preisthood - for the purpose of abusing their power?? Hmmm - if THATS possible - how about the pope - did he just NOT get caught??

3) Its socially frowned upon admitting in public ones lack of faith in god. They'll even lie to avoid confrontations or arguments that lead to 3 mile long forum thread equivelents - and say - 'yes, I beleive in god'

4) most of us belived in santa clause, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy etc.. - until we were smart enough to figure out that those were lies as well. - Lies meant to influence a childs behaviour - its like Religion V1
Where Catholisism is upto V15806534 - and thus, much more effiicient, has had the majority of the bugs worked out - and only needs updates to deal with issues of that era. Like divorce, our origins (even many church leaders now buy into evolution, but insist god caused the big bang. Which covers thier religious ass' when evolution has been proven. But what caused the big band will probably NEVER be proven so...- pretty smart IMHO on those relgious leaders part)

Doesn't it makes sense to have a phoney icon like santa clause for a child in their formaidable years - to teach having faith in that which cannot be proven?? - To me it all seems very calculated but good for the counties economy - thus, it also makes sense why our gov't keeps 'in god we trust' on the dollar bills. Yet we have 'freedom of religion' - so what...?? as long as your religion includes a gods - your ok??

edit:
Ultimately my point is...

Stats may show we are a religious nation - but our behaviour indicate its no where near a deep seeded faith - some may think it is.

Zelig

If you have anything to add about god or the big bang, I'd be happy to discuss or refute it, but there's not much I can say is response to wikipedia making me dumb and apathetic.

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Sandok

So you don't believe in THAT either? Yup, the earth is only 4000 thousand years old and dinosaurs only existed in adam and eve's garden folks! And what cave men? We popped out from incest immediately as homo sapien sapiens!

Oh come on, what do you think that dinosaur bones are? An international hoax?

I haven't been focusing on 1/16th mate... Anything you guys have thrown at me, I've responded to but the opposite can't really be said no can it?

And more proof that god exists? So one book = to the same as several thousand scientific journals and books? Oh please, you have NO SINGLE proof that god exists. Nothing that is irrefutible (meaning it's a fact). I mean, the bible isn't proof... It's just a book and I don't see god's signature on it... Nature isn't proof of god either since I believe evolution is mostly responsible... So what is proof of god mate? A near death experience? Child molesting priests? Come on, I'm curious!

And I totally agree with Maddog on every point he made!

SFOSOK

I'm not saying your response to wikipedia makes you dumb and apathetic. I'm saying that wikipedia is not a reliable source of information and also the wrong type of information and using it to cite it as a fact for a theory. I'm sure any other dictionary would say the same thing on the "theory" of evolution but there is no fact to base this theory off of. While you may believe in the bible or not it is still something as opposed to the idea of evolution.


1) I learned about evolution the same way in school but we spent quite a great deal of timetalking about the theory.

2) Everyone is their own person and has their own path to take. God does not choose for use we choose for ourselves. He already knows the path he just cannot change it. To keep blaming Christianity as a whole for the actions of quite a few catholic priests is wrong to say the least.

3) What is socialy frowned upon should not even matter. Everyone should be thier own person and stop using other's beliefs as an excuse to stop acting how they want to. Truthfully nowadays it is socially frowned upon to even mention God or Jesus in conversation with another person.

4) Science states that something cannot come from nothing so where did the big bang come from? And where did that come from? Where did all the space come from? The Universe? There are no answers to those questions and there will never be. I didn't start believing in God because I needed answers, I did it because I needed guidance. As far as Catholisism it is more of a tradition than anything. I believe that Christians should have an individual relationship with God without always having the church.


In God We Trust, and anything else with the word God in it is part of this country's heritage wether you like it or not. It does not imply anything other than what it means individually to you. There is no reason to start changing our country to try and please everyone who thinks our government is trying to impose God on them. People should just learn not to be uptight and over analyze. Words are nothing unless you give them meaning, so if you read something that pisses you off you have really pissed yourself off where as the writer has not angered you (wether it was his intention or not).





perhaps its all a hoax, but bashing it wont further your cause just waste everyone's time.

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MiDri

Our world works on theorys, your faith in god is a theory. Over time all theorys will evolve and change, even religion does this. Evolution happens every day to just about everything. We as mortal beings, that are actully subconciously afraid of change and a loss of control of our surroundings, just wish not to acknowlage it.

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[COLOR=black]He is so happy, I just don't have the heart to tell him...[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Pompey

Scientists still debate evolution so its not like they just said "this is how it is now believe it because we said so", and expected everyone to follow like sheep. They dont debate whether evolution took place, the evidence over whelming supports that. They debate some of the details.

FYI, the big bang theory does not state that the universe started from a single point. It states that the universe was cooler and less dense than it is now, we know the universe is expanding.

I guess you anti-evolutionist are not worried about a bird flu pandemic, since you believe bird flu could never mutate.

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One's inability to find an answer to a question does not imply that the question has no answer.

Zelig

I think you mistake the usage of the word "theory" for scientific devices. In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations that is predictive, logical and testable.

The theory of evolution is in with the likes of the theory of gravity, theory of relativity, electromagnetic theory or extreme value theory.

Perhaps one hundred years ago, evolutionary theory had as little proof as string theory does today, but it no longer remains logical to argue to argue against evolutionary theory. (Funny though, I never see people arguing about string theory online.)


I hadn't noticed at all... doesn't the president of the US mention God in his speeches? I myself have no problems with mentioning any gods or religious figures in conversation with other people.

Science "states" no such thing, in a way that is applicable to the birth of the universe. Nobody claims that science holds definate answers about any of those questions, however, neither are we going to give up and stop looking for them. That would be akin to giving up any scientific research in the past that has resulted in breakthroughs in our knowledge. While we can't be guaranteed of finding any answers if we keep searching, we can be guaranteed of finding no answers if we stop searching.


Yeah, congress replaced "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many, One) with it in 1956. Not that I really care, since we have a picture of the Queen on our coins, which is about as useful.

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Maddogg6

First off this speaks volumes:
Why do you suppose this is? because god has been shoved down our throats for long enough and were sick of it. Especially when we hear about all the corruption happening within the religious organizations.

Huh??? - You completely avoided/missed the point made.
A 'tradition' is more like a family camping trip or something - religion on the other hand has been using guilt to bilk the elderly out of their assets, even to the point of in-ability to pay for their needed precriptions. "buy you way into heaven' is seen on TV 24/7 nowadays. Its far less trivial that what you indicate. And definitly something that needs to be corrected.

I also see religion as a 'crutch' - that one relies upon for 'happiness' - when all that was done was be told a story/parable that eases ones anxiety. Something a good psychologist can do, and with out the un-just guilt. (which leads to lowered self esteem/respect)

So what kind of guidance does one get from a priest - its psychological. plain and simple. At least with a licensed physician, theres more 'policing' of their actions than the few covering huge regions, and practically no way of formal complaint unless its drastic enough to get law enforcement/courts involved. History is now proving how in-effective a system theres been to prevent abuse in religion.
Im not harping on the fact of the many/few that did the abuse, I talking about the systems lack of assuring abuse is kept to a minimum. (we shouldnt need protection from our moral leaders right??)

Recap of an old post I made in this thread....
Greek mythology (keyword here is MYTHOLOGY) USED to be religion, that science has debunked - its vain to think that can't happen again. Isn't vanity one of gods sins??

Anyones religious beliefs are fine with me - I encourage everyone to go to church on Sunday - (so the line at Dennys for breakfast is a shorter one ) BUT KEEP I.D. THERE and not in public schools/gov't. Separation of church and state - its a law.

Go ahead, pray to god, in front of me even, I can ignore it, but I cant ignore a failing grade on a subject thats based on NO evidence what so ever. (the lack of understanding something IS NOT evidence of god)

At least with evolution, significant evidence is how bacteria grows so rapidly, how we know organisms mutate and the fact our appendix is no longer needed. (or did god goof up there too??) Thus, WHY EVOLUTION IS taught in school. Things that can be proven through experiment repeatably. There NOTHING AT ALL like this that supports ID theory. Natta.
But we can calculate how quickly bacteria grows, how and why it grows. How to control its growth rate etc.. Thats right, we can play god to those bacteria.

Describe for me an ID experiment in a class room? You can't, ITS ALL LECTURE, something one can get in a church and no need to have a lab environment - as porposed by the ID proponants wanting to teach ID in science class - the ONE room in a school thats considered a lab - WHY IS THIS? - to stall advancements/interest in science is the only logical answer. What other reason could there possibly be? - so its considered 'science' and NOT theology?? pff. Open your eyes.

ID should be an elective and NOT a requirement to graduate. If its a requirement - its forcing religious belief. Period.

Tell me this - if theres more evidence of ID over evolution - why has evo, all along, been taught in school, and ID is now just popping up??

I can tell you why, because church attendance is WAY down, and falling fast. BUT - shove ID down a kids throat in school, and watch the church attendance increase. Its painfully obvious to me. If you don't see this now, you will someday.

Oh that, and now that evo is looking pretty positive, its debunking the whole adam and eve thing here, a previously significant point for religious belief systems. (if adam and eve never existed, so why did jesus come again, wasnt it an apple adam ate, the sin jesus dies for us for?? If so, this raises hugh questions to all the other aspects in christianity.

But you go ahead and 'sort of' believe in god - even if for the 'just in case' insurance, I understand I probably wont change your mind - but hopefully, some one who hasn't been guilted into 'gods wrath', may read what I type and say - 'Hmmm' and at least think before they blindly accept a decision crammed down their throat. I'll respect their decision either way.

But don't tell me to not debate it or that I'm wasting my time, or hurting some cause. And I wasn't bashing anything, it was confrontation. Big difference. Remarks like:
are elitist, and typical of 'religious activists'.

And comments like:
Proves my point of:
But I'll add 'our behavior and statements ...'

Does anyone else here laugh as hard as me when you hear the words 'Christian Science'?? - heh. THE definition of 'oxy-moron. (I used to think it was 'Military Intelligence', but at least they get shit done) - Just what has 'christian science' discovered?? - anything the mainstrean science community has embraced? anyone??

Religion has all along (since books have been written) been struggling to control what happens in science - to slow down their debunking of their previously profitable orginization. Im sure the pope of today doesnt want to be tomarrows mythology fanatic, and laughed out of existance, like them greeks way back whenever.

Really, GDF - I just don't want, what those greeks went through, to happen to you. - Keep your mind a bit more open than what this seems to indicate:
And...
Im not offended by the word or the idea of god, Im offended that we supposivly have freedom of religion (means free to NOT have religion as well), and seperation of church and state - I belive its a sort of brainwashing, intentional or not - I belive its why those stats/chart indicate we are religious nation over all.

As GDF indicated, our nation was founded with 'god' in the paperwork, and I have no intention of 're-writing' the delcaration of independance, the bill of rights or our constitution simply to omit that word or sentiment, but I think, its innapproriate, in a 'free' nation, for its gov't and/or its officials publicly display religious bias - him simply stateing that word, gives an indication, and the 'monekey see- monkey do' factor starts rolling.

And quite frankly, it doesnt instill my confidence, having a fairy tale follower, as our nations leader. (How does one who uses god in a speech that sends our troops off to a war thats un-justified, over-extended, and obviously for additional motives than 'removing Sadaam'.??)

ALERT - NUCLEAR STRIKE - ENROUTE - ALERT.

Id rather not have G.W.'s FIRST thought to be 'pray' - and then, when its too late - think to fire off our retalitory shots...

IndianScout

being native american born and raised on my reservation and not a christian, I cant believe the whole "bible" thing..

Science has proved our people can be traced in this country for 40,000 years..

I'm not saying that there isnt some sort of "higher" being as all peoples and cultures have their own beliefs...

the bottom line is "mother earth" is the giver of life and we are slowly killing her, once she is gone all the praying in the world wont save you as we will all be dead.

just my 2 cents

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