raid517

continued....

Mmm I could tell you to go do something too, but that would very much be against the spirit of the forum. I think you have been warned about using these sniping tones with forum members previously. Be nice J.Reb, if that is at all remotely possible for you.

Well it will be a cold day in a very hot place before that ever happens. I stand by everything I have said here. This administration (which is not 'America' mind you) has appeared to deliberately set out to pitch itself against much of the rest of the world. In almost every aspect of what they do, their words and actions groan with this policy.

Like you it seems they believe that diplomacy is unnecessary, since why would it be required when either nations are 'with us, or are with the terrorists?' Where is the wiggle room here? Where is the scope for dissent? In any case it seems that you have at least managed a small concession in that it is now possible to disagree with this administration - and not be considered un-American. (Just like all those un-American Americans who disagree too). That is at least small progress.

And I don't know what your motivation is for continuing to want to beat up poor old Sweden? If you want to know what Sweden has done in the fight against terror, this has in actual fact been far from insubstantial. http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=swe...-8&hl=en&meta= will show you numerous information sources about Swedish contributions towards the fight against terror. Like many European countries the Swedish record on catching terrorists has really been rather good. Indeed many European countries have caught more terrorists through good police work, than a lot of Americans have had hot dinners. This is one area where our experience is undoubtedly valuable - and no doubt America could learn something from us. Just because we don't go out and drop a couple of hundred tons of bombs on everyone's heads in response to each minor attack, doesn't mean we aren't damn good at preventing terrorism; or at catching those who do perpetrate it. I think you will find too that dropping bombs on people is unlikely to do much to solve terrorism in the longer term either, but then that is a lesson you still have to learn I guess. You shouldn't be surprised the next time it happens though. Eliminating it is simply impossible.

All in all I still don't get what your about J.Reb. You want to disparage, lambaste and discount the views of almost everyone, even those who largely support the current administration in the upcoming war on Iraq. I don't think anyone has ever expressed a contrary view in this regard - and most have only ever said that if this is to be done, we must take care that it is done properly - and that the implications for the eventual geopolitical make up of the Mid East are well understood. If your going to allay Arab fears this will take a lot of careful diplomacy - and right now the biggest diplomatic tool we have at our disposal is the UN. Perhaps we should all try harder to see if we can learn how to use it a little more effectively?

So if we all agree that getting rid of Saddam would be a good thing, providing it was done right - and the outcome handled sensitively, what exactly is the point your making J.Reb? So far all I have really heard you say (indeed you go on about it endlessly) is that the US is the greatest country on Earth. Fair enough, were all entitled to our view - and were all entitled to disagree too. Personally my view is that America is the most powerful. Does that make her the greatest? Well that is a value statement and is not a serious subject for debate. My view is that America is a country - and views beyond this are possibly the subject for another thread, or for another less diverse forum completely.

Q

Ps

Look its probably a waste of time saying this, but is there any danger of you holding off on that sniping and attacking attitude of yours any time soon and maybe toning down the bright orange text a tad? There is no reason just to go about disparaging people because they have views that are different from your own (and I freely I confess I am a little ashamed for lowering myself to playing this game with you). Also you are the only person I have ever seen that appears so desperate for your views to be noticed, that you have to print them in bright colours. If your views have any real weight, I'm sure they should be able to stand up on their own. The bright colours simply point to a lack of confidence.

But as I said much of what has passed to date seems to have fallen on deaf ears, so I will not hold out much hope for change.

ByteMe

stop posting freaking books

raid517

Lol sorry Byte. I didn't know books weren't your thing.

Q

Falstaff

REALLY ENJOY EVERYTHING YOU AND BLUELIGHT HAVE TO CONTRIBUTE, START ANOTHER THREAD, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE EUROPEAN PERSPECTIVE. LET'S TURN THE TABLES FILL US IN ABOUT THE CONTROVERSY OVERTHERE, CHOW......

__________________

J.Reb

[color=orange]bluelight, to me it seems pretty simple. If you don't care for Bush's plan, then propose another in its place. That's why I keep asking you what your plan is, because as of now there is no alternate to Bush's for anyone to consideration. I do not think it an unreasonable request.

If his is so bad, you or your country or someone should be able to formulate a better one. If you cannot, then we pretty much have a one-plan horse race. You should not be surprised if the only plan up for consideration is also the winning plan.

All the talk about bad-this and bad-that about America is no substitute for a good plan. It is not addressing the need. By default you are leaving money on the table with every hand, because his plan progresses while yours hasn't started.

Now don't misunderstand, I don't think you have a plan. But if you do, please share it. Or if not, you might consider toning down your ridicule of us a bit just out of simple honesty.[/color]

bluelight

Well since you obviously arent capable of reading a board and you continue harssasing me with the same question i that i havereplied to once very very clearly i will spell it out for you once again and the i expect you get off my back ...ok?


I want it handled by the UN.

I dont want an issue as important as this to be handled by people that threatens other nations as your government has done by saying "You are either with us or against us".Nor do i want it handled by a government that constructs laws that interfere with free speech and international agreements as your government has done.

Nor do i want it handled by a government that writes laws that allows people to be secretly arrested,judged and executed without public trial or lawyers.

Nor do i want it handled by a government that holds prisoners in chicken cages for over a year witout giving them trials or even the basis for what the prisoners are accused of and under which law they are held.

Asking librarians to report what kind of literature people asks for in public librarys IS interfering with free speech.This...is just one of the dubious things you government has constructed in the "Patriot act"

Wouldnt it be simpler to just close the public libraries if the are a threat to your nations?

Books have benn dangerous before.......in other places....

Like Benjamin Franklin i think that those that are prepared to sell out free speech for security arent worth free speech.


Ok...is that enough for you?


It better be because youre not getting anymore.

Yes...you will...Terrorism IS not the biggest threat to security.Injustice is.


Bluelight

raid517

Oh I do wish you would stop sniping at people J.Reb. I hope you know that you come across as nothing more than one nasty SOB. I have done my best to tone my own language down and will not lower myself to the mire again to respond to your taunts.

It is up to members if they do not agree with you or your president, you cannot force them to agree to your views or brow beat them into it either. The likelihood is that if you thought you could do this, debates like this would just go on indefinitely. In truth after a while though it just becomes tiresome.

Up until now Sweden and European countries through Interpol and other law enforcement agencies have had a very good track record in fighting terrorism. In deed far better then any army has achieved thus far. Do you want to disprove this, or are you just going to keep on rambling on and sniping at members about how big the US military is?

Q

J.Reb

ToshiroOC

Because starving people don't revolt against tyrannical leaders, and tyrannical leaders also want military power, meaning nuclear weapons...

__________________
[img][/img]
[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

bluelight

No Raid...this is an example of the now so common"We are God theory".It was planted by Bush government and fuelled by Sept 11.Since Americans are often so uncritical to what their governments are doing in times of pressure all questioniong from ouside is regarded as being unamerican although the person they speak to arent at all american.Everyone in the world is expected to think as conservative americans by these people.

I am moderating a fairly large Australian site with lots of americans coming to it.
It is exactly the same there.In fact the discussions here are carbon copys of the ones we have.The one difference is that the hostilities at our place has gone far to long .Personally i am accused of being mentally disturbed by " American patriots" once a week or more" Just for posting topics not to their pleasure.

The funniest thing though is...if you visit an"All american board" with an absolute majority of Americans all these issues can be discssed without the same hostilities by bothe left wing,liberal and conservative Americans....

Funny...


BlueLight

ToshiroOC

Raid, if you have problems with J.Reb, you talk to us, the moderators, and if you have problems with not enough action taking place, you talk to WyretheWolf, the moderation team leader. It is that simple. Continually asking him to stop sniping at people, especially when he doesn't appear to be "sniping" at anyone anymore, with very few minor exceptions, is simply not going to do anything. You are correct in that last statement that you should not be lowering yourself to simple taunts - and please, if J.Reb wishes to type in orange, let him type in orange. It doesn't hurt anyone, and while I might also disagree a bit with the color, it really doesn't matter and isn't grounds for you to "snipe" back at J.Reb.

ToshiroOC

__________________
[img][/img]
[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Falstaff

[COLOR=darkred]now this is more interesting, I could post inane comments in this color, ha ha...not.!!!!!!!!!!!!, what color would you use RAID517?[/COLOR]
I am sure it would be tasteful, how about you bluelight?I guess you could choose your own quote highlight...these threads are still interesting..

__________________

raid517

ToshiroOC I wasn't aware that that's what I had done. I felt sorry for bluelight who seems to be under a sustained attack based on very little.

I thought I responded politiely to JReb and was trying to ratchet down the tone a little. I thought a direct and polite appeal was reasonable. If it wasn't then I am sorry. I think we could all get along a little better if we just set out to debate each others views rather than attack them. I think we have both tended to get a little confused in the difference between debate and attack recentlly - and in this, I freely admit my own fault.

Q

ToshiroOC

The text colors are part of the Blueheaven color theme for Driverheaven... it would probably be best to leave things at default if only because your text might be unreadable in future different themes (though bright orange, eye hurting it may be to some, probably won't cause problems, dark red might...)

__________________
[img][/img]
[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

raid517

I think the plan, as you put it, is the same plan that has saw European nations capture and incarcerate countless terrorists over the last 50 odd years, something we have done with a very high success rate since the formulation of the EU. As pointed out recently good police work has yielded better results against terrorists than any number of wars ever have. We have a lot of experience in this area and excellent intelligence services that through the years have prevented a lot of potentially very devastating attacks. Terrorism in Europe is still very rare - and it is rare because terrorists fear our police and intelligence services and know that attempting this kind of illegal action poses an extreme risk to them. Sometimes war may be necessary, but war and good police work are rarely the same thing.

Q

ByteMe

WOW, they sure give you alot of credit!
















Just kidding mods, no need of a ban here.

J.Reb

bluelight

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bluelight

Personally i am accused of being mentally disturbed by " American patriots" once a week or more" Just for posting topics not to their pleasure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Qoute Byte me


WOW, they sure give you alot of credit!

Just kidding mods, no need of a ban here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Reply Bluelight

Well as far as im concerned you are a moron and you can fuck off.


Sorry just kidding.

BlueLight

raid517

Well some people might not distinguish right from wrong in this regard, but it is certainly always a mistake to discount the views of a neighbour. I think you make too many deep distinctions between people, who given half a chance would be only too willing to be your friends. All that is asked is that, even if nothing else is, that friendship should be placed on a level playing field. Can you ever imagine any true friendship where one half of the relationship is prepared to tell the other that their views don't matter - and that their contribution (although that may not always just be about tanks and bombs) is all but worthless. What kind of a friendship would that be? In truth if that is the way you behaved in your normal life, you would have no friends at all, just people who mistrusted you and who did not trust your motives. By this reasoning it is not ok to disparage my brother, or in reality just your fellow country men, but its perfectly acceptable to disparage everyone else? That's a very nasty double standard if you ask me.

A lot of years have been spent building firm relationships and establishing understandings - and in many senses, in terms of trade, culture and the exchange of ideas and technical knowledge, this relationship has been mutually beneficial. Now with the threat of international terror pressing on everyone's mind, there is another area where these old relationships could be of use, which is in Europe's experience in catching bad guys and in rooting out terrorists before they strike. What would happen if these relationships were really to end? What would happen if trade, the exchange of knowledge, culture and intelligence about terrorism and crime were really to come to an end? What kind of chaos would this world descend into? That is why these relationships should be encouraged, why they should be regarded as valuable and why it is important that effort is put into ensuring that these friendships are maintained.

A lot of these attributes have been missing in the outlook of the current administration, which is exactly why this has bred so much mistrust and resentment in the world. Old partners who's views and input were valued for the best part of the last century, feel they are being cast aside, just as the US has done with many former allies. (Indeed it can almost be described as a US tradition to go about the world ditching old friends). They feel fear and resentment as they see their own contribution being utterly disregarded - as once more America ditches them in favour of her latest ally of the moment.

Now that bases are being built in Czechoslovakia and other Eastern block countries and new relationships are being formed with several dictatorships in the Mid East and along the former Soviet border, it seems the advice and input of old friends is no longer valuable to US interests. Germany looks set to suffer greatly for its recent dissent, with America threatening to pull its troops out and relocate them elsewhere in Poland and Hungary etc, which will cost the German economy something like 3 billion dollars a year.

I know the typical refrain from you will be, well hey you can't have it both ways, you can't have the security of our armed forces and not pitch in when your needed too, but (ignoring German pacifism) it isn't that straightforward. Since the end of the cold war, there isn't much of a threat to German interests in Europe any more - and with the dominance of the EU, the EU isn't ever likely to go to war with itself any time soon either. So having US troops in Germany, has been for the last 12 years far more to America's benefit than it has been (at least militarily) to Germany, for the bases in Germany afforded America access the former Soviet satellite states that border Eastern Russia. But now that America has made friends with many of these dictatorial regimes and have even been invited in to set up bases there, the need for Germany, and for several other European countries to act as allies has been considerably lessened (or so the reasoning goes).

So pulling troops out of Germany in order to punitively punish ordinary Germans because they dared to disagree with the position of the currently serving Republican party, is seen as an acceptable means by which the power of the state can be exercised. Now I'm sure you and others like you will find this a gleeful prospect, but the problem comes in when you consider what happens when trade an intelligence links with America's 'partners' in Europe become threatened too? What happens when relationships with the UN (which I know you hate) Nato, the W.T.O. (World Trade Organisation) and the EU have been irreparably shattered? What happens when the free flow of trade, ideas and covert intelligence stops? What happens when America has prosecuted an unpopular war in the eyes of many Arab countries and made an awful lot of angry Muslim fundamentalists even more angry? What happens when international terror has become the single most pervasive force in the world? What then? who will America look to then in her time of need?

If you keep picking up friends and then putting them down again when they are no longer convenient to you, how many real friends will you have that you can really count on? Are friendships of no more significance, than the mere transient short term strategic value they can offer you? Not too long ago the answer to all of these questions would have been no, most Americans understood the value of long term strategic partnerships and knew that the best friends you had were those you were able to keep the longest. (Even during those odd times when you didn't see eye to eye). But this present administration does not appear to have considered any of this, or perhaps it doesn't understand it, or perhaps like you it simply considers these matters to be of no value any more? I really cannot tell.

But what I can say is that in the longer term if your prepared to trash all past relationships and do so virtually on a whim, in the longer term it is America who will have the most to loose. How more "with us or against us" or blatantly empirical is it possible to be, than to threaten an old long standing ally with punitive economic sanctions simply because it had the audacity to disagree with you? The message this sends is clear, you are only our friends while you agree with us, dare to disagree and you will suffer the consequences. How can you preach democracy to the world yet still be prepared to use these tactics? And all this from a country who says it plans to place a democratic government in Iraq. How democratic will it be if it knows that if it even remotely steps out of line, it will undoubtedly suffer the full consequences for failing to play ball too?

Democracy it often seems, is only for the Americans.

Q

ToshiroOC

Byteme, bluelight... no more. Strike one.

__________________
[img][/img]
[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

bluelight

Will do Toshiro.

Third time he insults me .Next time i will not answer him a at all.

BlueLight

raid517

And if you still don't fully understand the potential issues you could try this http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml . Its a pretty extreme example of what could happen - and if you want to pick out the inaccuracies it contains then perhaps you should pinch yourself first just so you remember isn't a documentary. Its simply a cartoon and is intended as a humorous look at the possible out come of some of our actions if we do not take care to think them through first. As Jeff has pointed out, we could all end up in the middle of a very big mess. That is why talking with each other is important - and those who refuse to talk are the most dangerous people of all.

Q

J.Reb

bluelight

I am talking but you arent listening so i will quit talking.


BlueLight

J.Reb

[color=yellow]I am listening, bluelight. You have a plan we can discuss?

Just kidding ya....[/color]

bluelight

Sorry about the tone mate...im tired...excuse me..

Just read that over 100 different American cities..and among them Los Angeles Chicago and other major cities has expressed their serious doubt in Usa going to war without the Un.

I figure this is a sign if anything that ideas about this differ witrh you guys too.

All i can say is ..i see the problem...i hope they can fix it in the best way...

Bluey

J.Reb

[color=yellow]Don't forget that there is also a large contingent of Americans who believe we should get out of the UN altogether. And this group increases in number as they continue to see nonperformance, foot-dragging, and delaying tactics allowed at the UN. So there is indeed a difference of opinion as to what extent the UN should be able to dictate US policy. There always has been.[/color]

J.Reb

[color=yellow]Pardon this second post, but you said that "major cities have expressed their serious doubt" and that is not so. Vocal minorities in those cities have expressed their own point of view. That is all.[/color]

J.Reb

[color=yellow]Interesting....

Powell is announcing a donation of food for UN programs in North Korea.....evidentally international aid has dropped drastically there...

Powell won Japanese support for the US effort to force North Korea to dismantle its nuclear programs......

The US wants any negotiations with North Korea to be conducted multilaterally.....but North Korea has said it would deal only with the US

North Korea has had death toll estimates as high as 2 million people from famine recently.....

The famine was eased in past years because of a massive international aid program - of which about half the donations come from the US.

But in recent months foreign pledges of assistance have stopped......

The US was the biggest supplier of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan before 9-11...[/color]

bluelight

No as i read it...the representatives of these cities...the choosen political representatives has expressed this.

Ususally they are Democrats..which of course explains why...doesnt it..and it also means Bush dont have to bother about it.
Nobody has been walking around making up a list with 3 peole fron Chicago and ten from LA and then presented that as some thing valid.

It shows clearly as do many other things...You are not unified when it comes to attack without UN.

It is very important to understand that....Bush politics is Republican politics...All Americans arent Republicans..as a matter of fact the majority arent.That does not mean a democrat cant support Bush..but they dont do it to the extreme amount that one is led to believe.

Our political parties try the same game when they are in lead.

BlueLight