Sound of justice and freedom

OldBuzzard · Jul 31, 2006, 11:41 PM

Maddogg66:

Just to put things in perspective. In the Battle for Iwo Jima we lost 6,821 Killed 19,217 Wounded.

On D-DAY: 1465 dead, 3184 wounded

For the whole battle for Normandy: Twenty-seven war cemeteries hold the remains of over 110,000 dead from both sides: 77,866 German, 9386 American, 17,769 British, 5002 Canadian and 650 Poles.
Between 15,000 and 20,000 French civilians were killed, mainly as a result of Allied bombing. Thousands more fled their homes to escape the fighting.

In just one TRAINING EXCERSIZE for D-Day (Operation Tiger) we lost 749 men.

So, your post about an 'impressive #' is correct, altho not for the reason you think...it's quite impressive that the number is so LOW.

Also note the number of French CIVILIANS killed...care to ask a few Fernch citizens if they think that those 'collateral deaths' were worth it, or do you think that they would rather have those people (and the Nazis) back?

All this touchy feelie', lets all sit and sing songs, and get along is a FANTESY WORLD that will never happen. Whether you like it of not, there are 'bad people' out there and they WON'T sit and sing songs and 'get along', and the only 'touchy feelie' they are intetested in is 'touching your throat with a knife and feeling you die'.

Your world seems to be one where the wolves and the sheep sit down and decide 'What's for dinner'. In my world the sheep are WELL ARMED.

TheBlackCat · Aug 1, 2006, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldBuzzard

Just to put things in perspective. In the Battle for Iwo Jima we lost 6,821 Killed 19,217 Wounded.

On D-DAY: 1465 dead, 3184 wounded

For the whole battle for Normandy: Twenty-seven war cemeteries hold the remains of over 110,000 dead from both sides: 77,866 German, 9386 American, 17,769 British, 5002 Canadian and 650 Poles.
Between 15,000 and 20,000 French civilians were killed, mainly as a result of Allied bombing. Thousands more fled their homes to escape the fighting.

In just one TRAINING EXCERSIZE for D-Day (Operation Tiger) we lost 749 men.

So, your post about an 'impressive #' is correct, altho not for the reason you think...it's quite impressive that the number is so LOW.

Anything larger than 0 is high if you don't think we should be in Iraq. Considering most of the deaths occured after the war was declared "over", people might have a right to be a bit upset. I should probably also point out we were directly attacked by Japan, our allies were directly under attack by Germany and Italy at the time, and Germany and Italy declared war on us, not the the other way around. Iraq hadn't fought anybody, ally or enemy, in a decade, and there is now no clue it would have the means or will to any time soon. That is not to say it wouldn't if it had the capability, but there is no indication it did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldBuzzard

Also note the number of French CIVILIANS killed...care to ask a few Fernch citizens if they think that those 'collateral deaths' were worth it, or do you think that they would rather have those people (and the Nazis) back?

As I recall, the French resistance was fighting the Germans. The Iraqi resistance is fighting us. That might indicate a slightly different feeling between the two groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldBuzzard

All this touchy feelie', lets all sit and sing songs, and get along is a FANTESY WORLD that will never happen. Whether you like it of not, there are 'bad people' out there and they WON'T sit and sing songs and 'get along', and the only 'touchy feelie' they are intetested in is 'touching your throat with a knife and feeling you die'.

Your world seems to be one where the wolves and the sheep sit down and decide 'What's for dinner'. In my world the sheep are WELL ARMED.

That argument would be a lot more convincing if we actually eliminated an enemy. All we have done is take one enemy that hates us but didn't have the means, at that time, to fight us and was hated by its neighbors and replace it with an enemy that does have the means to fight us and is supported by its neighbors (at least quite a few of the people, generally not the government openly at any rate), while at the same time destroying any last shred of credibility we might have had in the world community and making it much more difficult to make moves against countries that do have the means to harm us or will very soon. Fighting is an unfortunate fact of life, but people have a right to be upset if we are as bad or worse off than we were before we went in.

Iroth · Aug 1, 2006, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFOSOK

The United States government does not negociate with terrorists. Doing so would show that violence and other means of terrorism works for countries to get what they want. Because of this policy those avenues are closed.

Edit: The tax system is severly flawed in the United States and frankly it makes me sick everytime I think about it. Why should the people who make the most money have to pay a higher percent? To be fair, why doesn't have everyone pay the same percent in taxes? That is not fair or equal in anyway.

Lets say one person makes 1 $ another makes 10 $. The first has to pay 25% in taxes while the second has to pay 50%. Thats .25$ compared to 5$. Now that is bs. A percent is used so everything can be effected equally. There should not be a penalty for working your @ss off and making a good amount of money. Our tax system kind of reminds me of communism, trying to force everyone into the same financial bracket by making the rich pay more.

Freedom isn't free. If you're one of the fortunate one's in this country who make millions each year then the price you have to pay for the luxury and priviledge (not right) of making that money is taxes. There comes a point where people like that get more money than they will ever need, let alone spend. I'll agree that it's not a perfect tax system but when they cut the estate tax, which only affects estates larger than 2 million dollars - or roughly 2 percent of the population so they can do away with programs that help single mothers to not only feed, clothe, and educate their kids but also allows them to educate themselves and allow themselves to get off those programs and contribute more to society it bothers me more than a little. If you didn't earn the money, but inherited it, it's still income. But hey, if you don't like it you can always move some place else.....

SFOSOK · Aug 1, 2006, 09:13 AM

Wellfare is sucking this nation dry. Worst Idea ever concieved by man to still be in place today. The rich however contribute back to the nations economy without taxes. Like the stock market, investing, and all other sorts of things.

Pompey · Aug 1, 2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Wellfare is sucking this nation dry. Worst Idea ever concieved by man to still be in place today. The rich however contribute back to the nations economy without taxes. Like the stock market, investing, and all other sorts of things.

Welfare is not bleeding the US dry, its in an even worse state than New Zealand’s so called 'welfare state'. The main component of a welfare state and the thing that takes up the largest percentage of most developed countries revenue is Healthcare - which is something the private sector largely handles in America. How can you even make that claim? The thing that 'bleeds America dry' is its military spending. And I suppose the massive deficit America is facing (once again) is because of the socialists? Lets take a look:
Surplus under Clinton (billions)
1998 $69.2
1999 $122.7
2000 $230

Now, lets look at the deficit under bush (billions):
2004 $413
2003 $378
2005 $318
2006 $296 (projected)

But i suppose it has nothing to do with the tax cuts and emphasis on military spending...its all the lefts fault.

Im not saying america has to follow a socialist path, but at least ballance the books for christ sake.

Iroth · Aug 1, 2006, 10:48 AM

The US government gives out more in corporate welfare then they do to it's citizens. Then those corporations take that money and put into off-shore accounts to avoid paying taxes. Some of those corporations even cook their books to inflate stock prices which actually makes them worth nothing. A lot of others outsorce their lowest paying/lowest skilled jobs to countries where they can get away with paying those people pennies on the dollar. Does that help the U.S.? Well, I live here and it doesn't help me. It might inflate their stock prices since operating costs are down but since at the time of writing this I live almost paycheck to paycheck I can't buy any of those stocks - not that I'd want to, having morals and ethics and all.

I'm not saying the U.S. needs to be completely socialist either, but a healthy balance of socialism and capatalism benefits the majority of the citizens - mostly those who need it. How can the poor do all the work in this country if they aren't fed?

SFOSOK · Aug 1, 2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pompey

Welfare is not bleeding the US dry, its in an even worse state than New Zealand’s so called 'welfare state'. The main component of a welfare state and the thing that takes up the largest percentage of most developed countries revenue is Healthcare - which is something the private sector largely handles in America. How can you even make that claim? The thing that 'bleeds America dry' is its military spending. And I suppose the massive deficit America is facing (once again) is because of the socialists? Lets take a look:
Surplus under Clinton (billions)
1998 $69.2
1999 $122.7
2000 $230

Now, lets look at the deficit under bush (billions):
2004 $413
2003 $378
2005 $318
2006 $296 (projected)

But i suppose it has nothing to do with the tax cuts and emphasis on military spending...its all the lefts fault.

Im not saying america has to follow a socialist path, but at least ballance the books for christ sake.

I know for a fact there would be no debt without wellfare. Our current deficit can be attributed to things other than wellfare, but that still does mot mean that Wellfare is not sucksuckign the US dry. It doesn't contribute in anway back to the US or its interests so its like throwing away money.

As for millitary spending, most our major technological break throughs have been created in times of war. The US's role in the world (not self proclaimed but dictaded by the actions of other countries) has forced us to spend billions of $ to stop WW3 from happening because as far as Europe is concerned they will let countries destroy themselves until they actually attack them then they will retaliate. By that time it is usually too late and they need to be saved by the US.

Of course everyone loves us when we are saving them but curse us as soon as we leave. If the world were to go unchecked by the US or anyone for that matter (though the US is the only one to do it) we would have destroyed ourselves long ago.

Al_Vampyre · Aug 2, 2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFOSOK

It doesn't contribute in anway back to the US or its interests so its like throwing away money.

What a completely ironic thing to say! You have no problem with spending billions of dollars and wasting thousands of lives invading a country to rescue the poor disadvantaged people from a dictator who was vehemently anti US but you grudge taking care of your own poor and disadvantaged people?

Tell you what, why don't you just stop all US humanitarian aid, that would save you a few quid which you could then use to increase the number of people you can deploy in countries that aren't yours, have done nothing to you, but just might in the future because you don't like them...oh and they have oil. Don't bother sending troops into any of the warring African nations because, although they are treated as badly as the people in Iraq were, they don't have anything to make it worth your while.

It's called society, those are the rights that you're claiming to protect in Iraq for the people of Iraq. Truth, democracy, and the American way, but if you're sick and can't afford treatment we're going to let you die because there's nothing in it for us...

Sorry about the rant but comments like that make me furious...

Yousaif · Aug 2, 2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

You have no problem with spending billions of dollars and wasting thousands of lives invading a country to rescue the poor disadvantaged people from a dictator who was vehemently anti US but you grudge taking care of your own poor and disadvantaged people?

I want to address the last part of the above quoted text. I have no trouble taking care of our poor and disadvantaged people. Its the people that refuse to even try to get themselves out of the situation that nine times out of ten they put themselves into in the first place that I begrudge supporting.

Examples include the mother that has several kids by different fathers that just keeps sleeping with as many men as she can in order to have more children so she doesn't have to get herself off of welfare and work for a living.

Another example is the drug addict that receives disability payments from Social Security- often they applied for the disability payments while receiving some form of addiction treatment- then they take the payments they receive after rehab and turn around and get right back on the drugs again.

Its really the cycle of dependency on "free money" that gets to me more than anything else when it comes to welfare.

Al_Vampyre · Aug 2, 2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yousaif

I want to address the last part of the above quoted text. I have no trouble taking care of our poor and disadvantaged people. Its the people that refuse to even try to get themselves out of the situation that nine times out of ten they put themselves into in the first place that I begrudge supporting.

Examples include the mother that has several kids by different fathers that just keeps sleeping with as many men as she can in order to have more children so she doesn't have to get herself off of welfare and work for a living.

Another example is the drug addict that receives disability payments from Social Security- often they applied for the disability payments while receiving some form of addiction treatment- then they take the payments they receive after rehab and turn around and get right back on the drugs again.

Its really the cycle of dependency on "free money" that gets to me more than anything else when it comes to welfare.

Ahhh, thats different though, what you're talking about is abuse of the welfare system, not the welfare system itself...

Falstaff · Aug 2, 2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Those were nice videos, sounds impressive, and Im sure will be of some help to someone - but right now (and I mean no offense here - btw, just trying to make a point) - ALL I see/hear is, its a benefit to 'you' and troops in the field (on a system that should have been inplemented already - I read about electronic 'dog tags' that can hold a soldiers complete medical history in Pop Sci like 5 years ago - only NOW its cheap enough to implement) - as its giving you a nice gov't contract job - they pay nice right? but these vids made NO mention on how this sw will help vets. Instead I notice the major focus was on 'in-theater' (only small mention of vet care and NO details - vs - 7+ mins on in-theater - with details) - I have NO doubts to the level of spending for in-theater troop care. But, dont give me the 'by stream lining field operations, we can free up resources and funds that can now go to the vets' - cuz Im old enough to know how that will take years to trickle into the VA, if ever. And will be too little too late.

But... Yup ... you've cleared that up... you just told me where the VA funds are now being re-routed to in addition to the obvious. While you may work for the DoD, I've worked at a VA hospitol - still have friends there too. And no one there is seeing any more $$$ - less and less as a matter of fact. But, my friends at the VA will thank you for this fine looking SW - Im sure.

And - all because we have a volunteer military doesnt relieve the govt's responsibility for the safety or innappropriate use of our troops. I mean , does that contract you signed give your CO the right to sodomize you in your sleep - NO its still illegal. They CANT just do what ever they want with a soldier. There are still laws and responsibility on the gov'ts part.

AHLTA (noun)
is a cradel to grave...
that means...
accession > active duty > retirement > VA...
it is already intergrated at several and will be at all sites.
Navy - Marine - Army - USAF and all reserve entities.

and yes, for my work I am admirably compensated...
but I am a combat veteran..
I have served on all platforms..
Shore > Air > Sea > Submarine
I have served and have family serving in IRAQ and Afghanistan...
I think I can say with some validity that in the all volunteer military of the U.S. the only problem I have is that service members are looking for something that it cannot provide....they have to find that themselves regardless of the circumstances good or bad...
In life...you take risks and make choices...
and ultimately live with the consequences...

SFOSOK · Aug 2, 2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al_Vampyre

Ahhh, thats different though, what you're talking about is abuse of the welfare system, not the welfare system itself...

OUr wellfare system is flawed as 75% of the people on it (from what I have seen in around my city) are complete wastes of life bleeding the system. As far as single mothers go my sister in law was throw on the street with her kid at 18, she's doin allright for herself now and did what she had to, to get by. Wellfare is not needed. Help is needed though for the mentaly and phiscally handicapped where they are prevented from getting a job.

Also did you read what I wrote on millitary spending? because you did not quote it.

SFOSOK · Aug 2, 2006, 05:58 PM

Also in all truth about the millitary service, every single able male at 18 should at least spend one year in the millitary to know what they are bashing and where their money goes to. People need to open their f*ckin eyes and experience it before they judge based on what someone else tells them is true.

Again what I elieve is, if you haven't experienced yourself (I don't give a sh*t if the dali lama told you in person what is happening) Your opinion on the matter is void.

Falstaff · Aug 2, 2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFOSOK

Also in all truth about the millitary service, every single able male at 18 should at least spend one year in the millitary to know what they are bashing and where their money goes to. People need to open their f*ckin eyes and experience it before they judge based on what someone else tells them is true.

Again what I elieve is, if you haven't experienced yourself (I don't give a sh*t if the dali lama told you in person what is happening) Your opinion on the matter is void.

countries have tried to maintain a fascist / socialist state but they have failed...

TheBlackCat · Aug 2, 2006, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falstaff

countries have tried to maintain a fascist / socialist state but they have failed...

Your "/" there makes no sense. Fascism and socialism are polar opposites, the former being a business-oriented reactionary ultra-conservative political system and the latter being a radical ultra-liberal economic system (when you talk about pure socialism). They have basically nothing in common. There are, of course, a number of countries, including Canada and most of western Europe, that have a some significant degree of socialism (although certainly a very large capitalist aspect as well) and do quite well with it. They tend to have a much higher average standard of living overall than we do, but whether this is a cause or an effect is not clear.

TheBlackCat · Aug 2, 2006, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFOSOK

Also in all truth about the millitary service, every single able male at 18 should at least spend one year in the millitary to know what they are bashing and where their money goes to. People need to open their f*ckin eyes and experience it before they judge based on what someone else tells them is true.

Again what I elieve is, if you haven't experienced yourself (I don't give a sh*t if the dali lama told you in person what is happening) Your opinion on the matter is void.

You said you haven't even left for basic yet, not to mention started active duty. Perhaps you should follow your own advice and get some actual experience before telling everyone else to.

Have you ever been on welfare, or been unemployed? If not perhaps you should also follow your own advice and not make comments about that until you have experienced it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFOSOK

As for millitary spending, most our major technological break throughs have been created in times of war.

Is that so? Certainly there are a few, but I would certainly not say "most", or half, or probably even 1/10th. Besides miltiary technology itself, name all the technological advances you can think of that were made in time of war. I bet I can think of 10 times that number that were made during peace time, and probably 10 times that many military technologies that were developed during peacetime as well.

Falstaff · Aug 3, 2006, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlackCat

Your "/" there makes no sense. Fascism and socialism are polar opposites, the former being a business-oriented reactionary ultra-conservative political system and the latter being a radical ultra-liberal economic system (when you talk about pure socialism). They have basically nothing in common. There are, of course, a number of countries, including Canada and most of western Europe, that have a some significant degree of socialism (although certainly a very large capitalist aspect as well) and do quite well with it. They tend to have a much higher average standard of living overall than we do, but whether this is a cause or an effect is not clear.

either / or nothing more than that. polar opposites I accept but illustrating by either extreme they are unssuccessful.
I am old enough to remember Mussolini and Hitler and there upon I base my statement..
Ironic isnt it...and they had a common foe, therefore shared similiarities..

TheBlackCat · Aug 3, 2006, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falstaff

either / or nothing more than that. polar opposites I accept but illustrating by either extreme they are unssuccessful.
I am old enough to remember Mussolini and Hitler and there upon I base my statement..
Ironic isnt it...and they had a common foe, therefore shared similiarities..

They did? Both of those countries were decidedly fascist, not socialist, and expansionist, not defensive. They become allies in order to better take over Europe, not for common defense. The socialists at the time, i.e. the Soviet Union, many members of the French Resistance, and the Maoists in China, were strongly against the Fascist countries and fought actively against them. Also, not all fascists helped with WWII. Franco kept Spain neutral despite getting significant aid from Nazi Germany.

Al_Vampyre · Aug 3, 2006, 09:55 AM

Actually I have no problem with conscription, I would encourage it as well, there are a lot of good life skills that can learnt in a military environment and it definitely develops leadership skills.

@SFOSOK - I did read your bit about military spending but didn't think it was particularly quotable, because to my mind the idea of large scale military spending is assinine when there are issues at home (the Katarina cleanup for example).

You can at very best only believe that the US is preventing WW3 by its action in the Middle East, its an opinion thats all, and I happen to believe its wrong, but you have a right to that opinion. If you choose to ignore world opinion and do what you want anyway then you can't expect us to thank you, we didn't ask you to take on the mantle of 'world protector' and most of of don't belive thats what you're doing, all most of us can see is protection of US interests rather than world interests...

Pompey · Aug 3, 2006, 11:23 AM

New Zealand pioneered the welfare state, and we pioneered its demolition. We out protected Europe and the government intervened in virtually every aspect of the economy. It simply didn’t work. It didn’t fail because of the investment in social programs, but because of the level of government intervention on the economy and excessive regulations. Many countries have a mix of socialism and capitalism (often called the Scandinavian model) and are not on the verge of collapse.

Quote:

OUr wellfare system is flawed as 75% of the people on it (from what I have seen in around my city) are complete wastes of life bleeding the system. As far as single mothers go my sister in law was throw on the street with her kid at 18, she's doin allright for herself now and did what she had to, to get by. Wellfare is not needed. Help is needed though for the mentaly and phiscally handicapped where they are prevented from getting a job.

Not everyone on welfare is a leach, as someone pointed out you are referring to welfare abusers. I dont know what the system is in America but in NZ people on the unemployment benefit are required to active seek a job. They are forced to go to interviews, attend training and stuff and if they refuse to go or try to make sure they dont get the job they have their payments stopped. My mum was on it partially (I think my dads child support was deducted from her payments) when she got divorced for a couple of months until she got a new job. For most people, welfare is a safety net, not a hammock.
Welfare goes far beyond just giving the unemployed a cheque though; in fact that’s a small part of it. Welfare encompasses things like education and health.

Yousaif · Aug 3, 2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

welfare is a safety net, not a hammock

Well stated and I agree with you. We need to have the safety net. Its just that too many people use it as a hammock and do nothing to move their lives forward.

Falstaff · Aug 3, 2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlackCat

They did? Both of those countries were decidedly fascist, not socialist, and expansionist, not defensive. They become allies in order to better take over Europe, not for common defense. The socialists at the time, i.e. the Soviet Union, many members of the French Resistance, and the Maoists in China, were strongly against the Fascist countries and fought actively against them. Also, not all fascists helped with WWII. Franco kept Spain neutral despite getting significant aid from Nazi Germany.

There are similarities between Fascism and Nazism so you could apply it to both. In Italy and Germany a movement came to power that sought to create national unity through the repression of national enemies and the incorporation of all classes and both genders into a permanently mobilized nation.

SFOSOK · Aug 3, 2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al_Vampyre

Actually I have no problem with conscription, I would encourage it as well, there are a lot of good life skills that can learnt in a military environment and it definitely develops leadership skills.

@SFOSOK - I did read your bit about military spending but didn't think it was particularly quotable, because to my mind the idea of large scale military spending is assinine when there are issues at home (the Katarina cleanup for example).

You can at very best only believe that the US is preventing WW3 by its action in the Middle East, its an opinion thats all, and I happen to believe its wrong, but you have a right to that opinion. If you choose to ignore world opinion and do what you want anyway then you can't expect us to thank you, we didn't ask you to take on the mantle of 'world protector' and most of of don't belive thats what you're doing, all most of us can see is protection of US interests rather than world interests...

I don't expect anyone to thank the US for their millitary actions. I just expect them to get the hell out of the way and stop trying to undermine the war effort.

TheBlackCat · Aug 4, 2006, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFOSOK

I don't expect anyone to thank the US for their millitary actions. I just expect them to get the hell out of the way and stop trying to undermine the war effort.

That is not how it works in this country. If people don't support the war effort it is their right and responsibility to oppose it. The moment we are at war we do not suddenly become slaves to the federal government. The federal government ultimately answers to us (or should, at least), it is our duty as citizens to oppose decesions that we disagree with. We are not "undermining the war effort", we are exercising our civic duty to inform our elected representatives that we do not agree with the decisions that are being made. If you have a problem with that you are living in the wrong country.

Quote:

War is the health of the state. It automatically sets in motion throughout society those irresistible forces for uniformity, for passionate cooperation with the Government in coercing into obedience the minority groups and individuals which lack the larger herd sense.
-Randolph Silliman Bourne

Quote:

Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.
-Winston Churchill

Quote:

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This is, I repeat, the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. [...] Is there no other way the world may live?
-Dwight D Eisenhower

Quote:

May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.
-Dwight D Eisenhower

Quote:

The loud little handful will shout for war. The pulpit will warily and cautiously protest at first…The great mass of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes, and will try to make out why there should be a war, and they will say earnestly and indignantly: ‘It is unjust and dishonorable and there is no need for war.’ Then the few will shout even louder…Before long you will see a curious thing: anti-war speakers will be stoned from the platform, and free speech will be strangled by hordes of furious men who still agree with the speakers but dare not admit it...Next, statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
-Mark Twain

Quote:

My kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its officeholders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death.
-Mark Twain

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In war, truth is the first casualty.
-Aeschylus, ~500 BC

Quote:

Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.
-H. L. Mencken

Just 5 years ago I would not have taken such quotes seriously. In fact, my thinking was totally opposite. But that was 5 years ago. Now these sorts of statements seem to be nothing more than self-evident truths. I guess, as the saying goes, "but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

Falstaff · Aug 4, 2006, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlackCat

That is not how it works in this country. If people don't support the war effort it is their right and responsibility to oppose it. The moment we are at war we do not suddenly become slaves to the federal government. The federal government ultimately answers to us (or should, at least), it is our duty as citizens to oppose decesions that we disagree with. We are not "undermining the war effort", we are exercising our civic duty to inform our elected representatives that we do not agree with the decisions that are being made. If you have a problem with that you are living in the wrong country.

I am surprised you didnt add Robert E. Lee to your litany of quotes..

So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained.

Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less

I cannot trust a man to control others who cannot control himself.

Whiskey - I like it, I always did, and that is the reason I never use it.

My chief concern is to try to be an humble, earnest Christian.

Obedience to lawful authority is the foundation of manly character.

It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it.

[W]e made a great mistake in the beginning of our struggle, and I fear, in spite of all we can do, it will prove to be a fatal mistake. We appointed all our worst generals to command our armies, and all our best generals to edit the newspapers

[T]here is no more dangerous experiment than that of undertaking to be one thing before a man's face and another behind his back.

You must study to be frank with the world: frankness is the child of honesty and courage. Say just what you mean to do on every occasion, and take it for granted that you mean to do right.

With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword...

A true man of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others

My experience through life has convinced me that, while moderation and temperance in all things are commendable and beneficial, abstinence from spirituous liquors is the best safeguard of morals and health

The gentleman does not needlessly and unnecessarily remind an offender of a wrong he may have committed against him. He can not only forgive; he can forget; and he strives for that nobleness of self and mildness of character which imparts sufficient strength to let the past be put the past.

The education of a man is never completed until he dies.

We failed, but in the good providence of God apparent failure often proves a blessing.

What a cruel thing is war: to separate and destroy families and friends, and mar the purest joys and happiness God has granted us in this world; to fill our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors, and to devastate the fair face of this beautiful world.

You can have anything you want - if you want it badly enough. You can be anything you want to be, have anything you desire, accomplish anything you set out to accomplish - if you will hold to that desire with singleness of purpose.

Get correct views of life, and learn to see the world in its true light. It will enable you to live pleasantly, to do good, and, when summoned away, to leave without regret.

Never do a wrong thing to make a friend or keep one.

They do not know what they say. If it came to a conflict of arms, the war will last at least four years. Northern politicians will not appreciate the determination and pluck of the South, and Southern politicians do not appreciate the numbers, resources, and patient perseverance of the North. Both sides forget that we are all Americans. I foresee that our country will pass through a terrible ordeal, a necessary expiation, perhaps, for our national sins.

You cannot be a true man until you learn to obey

My trust is in the mercy and wisdom of a kind Providence, who ordereth all things for our good

Just 5 years ago I would not have taken such quotes seriously. In fact, my thinking was totally opposite. But that was 5 years ago. Now these sorts of statements seem to be nothing more than self-evident truths. I guess, as the saying goes, "but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

SFOSOK · Aug 4, 2006, 07:28 AM

Well, I'm up for our troops living so that is my view on it. Playing it nice to please the people who are bitchin and whining because their party could not come up with a candidate good enough to replace Bush only gets our troops killed.

Jul 31, 2006, 11:41 PM	#61
OldBuzzard DH's oldest Geek Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oberlin, OH Posts: 2,783 Rep Power: 145 System Specs	Maddogg66: Just to put things in perspective. In the Battle for Iwo Jima we lost 6,821 Killed 19,217 Wounded. On D-DAY: 1465 dead, 3184 wounded For the whole battle for Normandy: Twenty-seven war cemeteries hold the remains of over 110,000 dead from both sides: 77,866 German, 9386 American, 17,769 British, 5002 Canadian and 650 Poles. Between 15,000 and 20,000 French civilians were killed, mainly as a result of Allied bombing. Thousands more fled their homes to escape the fighting. In just one TRAINING EXCERSIZE for D-Day (Operation Tiger) we lost 749 men. So, your post about an 'impressive #' is correct, altho not for the reason you think...it's quite impressive that the number is so LOW. Also note the number of French CIVILIANS killed...care to ask a few Fernch citizens if they think that those 'collateral deaths' were worth it, or do you think that they would rather have those people (and the Nazis) back? All this touchy feelie', lets all sit and sing songs, and get along is a FANTESY WORLD that will never happen. Whether you like it of not, there are 'bad people' out there and they WON'T sit and sing songs and 'get along', and the only 'touchy feelie' they are intetested in is 'touching your throat with a knife and feeling you die'. Your world seems to be one where the wolves and the sheep sit down and decide 'What's for dinner'. In my world the sheep are WELL ARMED. __________________ When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Aug 1, 2006, 09:13 AM	#64
SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 7,033 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	Wellfare is sucking this nation dry. Worst Idea ever concieved by man to still be in place today. The rich however contribute back to the nations economy without taxes. Like the stock market, investing, and all other sorts of things. __________________ Warning - Explicit Content Preceeding METAL!!

Aug 2, 2006, 05:58 PM	#73
SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 7,033 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	Also in all truth about the millitary service, every single able male at 18 should at least spend one year in the millitary to know what they are bashing and where their money goes to. People need to open their fckin eyes and experience it before they judge based on what someone else tells them is true. Again what I elieve is, if you haven't experienced yourself (I don't give a sht if the dali lama told you in person what is happening) Your opinion on the matter is void. __________________ Warning - Explicit Content Preceeding METAL!!

Aug 3, 2006, 09:55 AM	#79
Al_Vampyre HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,532 Rep Power: 72 System Specs	Actually I have no problem with conscription, I would encourage it as well, there are a lot of good life skills that can learnt in a military environment and it definitely develops leadership skills. @SFOSOK - I did read your bit about military spending but didn't think it was particularly quotable, because to my mind the idea of large scale military spending is assinine when there are issues at home (the Katarina cleanup for example). You can at very best only believe that the US is preventing WW3 by its action in the Middle East, its an opinion thats all, and I happen to believe its wrong, but you have a right to that opinion. If you choose to ignore world opinion and do what you want anyway then you can't expect us to thank you, we didn't ask you to take on the mantle of 'world protector' and most of of don't belive thats what you're doing, all most of us can see is protection of US interests rather than world interests... __________________ "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad" - Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland Rugby Team 2009 Grand Slam winning Captain.

Aug 4, 2006, 07:28 AM	#86
SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 7,033 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	Well, I'm up for our troops living so that is my view on it. Playing it nice to please the people who are bitchin and whining because their party could not come up with a candidate good enough to replace Bush only gets our troops killed. __________________ Warning - Explicit Content Preceeding METAL!!

Aug 1, 2006, 10:48 AM	#66
Iroth DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 54 Rep Power: 0	The US government gives out more in corporate welfare then they do to it's citizens. Then those corporations take that money and put into off-shore accounts to avoid paying taxes. Some of those corporations even cook their books to inflate stock prices which actually makes them worth nothing. A lot of others outsorce their lowest paying/lowest skilled jobs to countries where they can get away with paying those people pennies on the dollar. Does that help the U.S.? Well, I live here and it doesn't help me. It might inflate their stock prices since operating costs are down but since at the time of writing this I live almost paycheck to paycheck I can't buy any of those stocks - not that I'd want to, having morals and ethics and all. I'm not saying the U.S. needs to be completely socialist either, but a healthy balance of socialism and capatalism benefits the majority of the citizens - mostly those who need it. How can the poor do all the work in this country if they aren't fed?