Should religeon have a role in Politics?

raid517 · Feb 25, 2003, 12:17 AM

The question is, who should control Government? Should it be Government on behalf of the people? Should the people have a say in the way government is run, or as currently seems to be the case, should the government and the people subjugate themselves to the will of an unelected/unrepresentative Church?

Here is an example of how letting the Church run government affairs can lead to some truly crazy contradictions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/10/opinion/10KRIS.html

and more here...

http://linkthing.com/screed/faith-based_cluster.html

The subject for debate is not the validity of religion or otherwise (so please no quoting from the bible to try to make a point). The question is should the Church have a role in Government - and if so what should it be? Or if you think the Church should not have a role in Government, what further measures do you think can be taken to curb the Church's role in political life?

A poll has been posted so that you can express your views more fully.

Q

~~ByteMe~~ · Feb 25, 2003, 01:45 AM

Well the USA was based on many of the ideals of the christians. Ideals ok... the rest can blow me.

digitalwanderer · Feb 25, 2003, 01:52 AM

Church + Government = No

No exceptions.

UberLord · Feb 25, 2003, 02:04 AM

NO!

Religion has caused the biggest and bloodiest wars amongst men.
Policitcs some second.

radTube · Feb 25, 2003, 08:13 AM

A church doesn't have to be unelected/unrepresentative. AFAIK the officials in the Finnish State Church (Evangelic Lutheran or whatever it is in english) are elected, to some extent by regular Church members. Our Church is in many ways extremely tolerant and undiscriminating, and as such it's really not such a scary idea for me if it had a (small but not insignificant) part in our government.

But anyway, raid probably meant something like the Church having a final say in all government decisions, and I agree that it's not the way to go.

PS: No, I'm not a churchgoer myself. I just happen to think that the finnish Church is a fine establishment.

raid517 · Feb 25, 2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by radTube
A church doesn't have to be unelected/unrepresentative. AFAIK the officials in the Finnish State Church (Evangelic Lutheran or whatever it is in english) are elected, to some extent by regular Church members. Our Church is in many ways extremely tolerant and undiscriminating, and as such it's really not such a scary idea for me if it had a (small but not insignificant) part in our government.

But anyway, raid probably meant something like the Church having a final say in all government decisions, and I agree that it's not the way to go.

PS: No, I'm not a churchgoer myself. I just happen to think that the finnish Church is a fine establishment.

No you misunderstand. What I object to is an unelected body such as the Christian right in the US today (or anywhere for that matter) having a direct say in Govenment. I'm glad the Finish experience is a happy one but this same experience is not repeated very often (indeed Finland seems to be out on a limb with that one) anywhere else. I wonder how happy this relationship in Finland really is though?

Q

radTube · Feb 25, 2003, 09:45 AM

I didn't say that the Church really has an active role in our government. I just pointed out that I don't think it would unavoidably be such a horrible thing. I guess I should have made my case a bit clearer. I agree with your views about the Christian right though.

~~bluelight~~ · Feb 25, 2003, 10:12 AM

Well God controls all politics and everything else.

We all die.Also politicians although they ususally have a hard time realising it.

BlueLight

~~bluelight~~ · Feb 25, 2003, 10:16 AM

And....religion....is politics.

In fact when peole say religion has caused more trouble than politics they arexcwrong since it is the same thing.

The only difference is the name.

Both is about gaining control i praqctice and both are and have been used for that.

The crusaders might actually have believed they went to Jerusalem to rid it of "unfaithfuls" but the real missin was purely about power and money.

Religion on a personal level can be "real" though.

Bluelight

merry · Feb 25, 2003, 10:39 AM

The way I see it, government is an institution of the society specifically made for administration. Church is concerned with matters of the soul/spirit. The Army has it's specific role and so on. None should interfere with each other.

merry · Feb 25, 2003, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
[BReligion has caused the biggest and bloodiest wars amongst men.
Policitcs some second. [/B]

WWII... THE war. Racism, nationalism, incompetent governments - no religion though.

~~bluelight~~ · Feb 25, 2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by merry
WWII... THE war. Racism, nationalism, incompetent governments - no religion though.

I dont know...Nazism was almost religion...Hitler replaced the church with his ideas in a way.

Hmmm..

Bluey

digitalwanderer · Feb 25, 2003, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
I dont know...Nazism was almost religion...Hitler replaced the church with his ideas in a way.

Hmmm..

Bluey

I'll second that one. Hitler's nazi philosophy was a replacement for religion.

Zealots=Trouble, take it from a tech zealot.

JavaFox · Feb 25, 2003, 11:51 PM

I like how the question is "should religion have a role in government?" yet the options are all absolutes. I had no idea everything in life was black and white. Perhaps the "options" you've presented make clear your biases?

raid517 · Feb 26, 2003, 12:16 AM

Well I guess it is a kind of yay or nay poll. I don't think its practical to post 50 different options describing various different levels of the Church's involvement in politics. If you have a more detailed position, it is best perhaps expressed here. The poll is a simple additional way for people to express their views, I don't think it really means that much. For me though the matter very much is black and white. A religious cleric of any kind who expresses a purely 'political' view is a very dangerous thing indeed - and strict measures should be taken to prevent this from ever happening. Your view might be more complex than this. Its up to you if you have a position to express or not.

Q

The_Neon_Cowboy · Feb 26, 2003, 03:30 AM

well if you use Religion in government then one chuch / religon will raise and then it's forceing people to one churches beleaves...it won't and can't work

the seperation is vital to fairness and equality .....

Church + State = Opression

also...
and what about the people that have no religion?

merry · Feb 26, 2003, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
I dont know...Nazism was almost religion...Hitler replaced the church with his ideas in a way.

I guess you can say that about all ideologies. Religion is openly about God.

BWX · Feb 26, 2003, 10:39 AM

If there was a choice "does raid517 WISH he was the anti-christ" -I would have voted for that one.

Before you get your panties in a wudge, it was only a joke. You see the humer in that, right?

Separation of church and state is why America was founded.--- One of the main reasons.

raid517 · Feb 26, 2003, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BWX232
If there was a choice "does raid517 WISH he was the anti-christ" -I would have voted for that one.

Before you get your panties in a wudge it was only a joke. You see the humour in that, right?

Separation of church and state is why America was founded.--- One of the main reasons.

Lol well that just about tops it, now I'm being compared to the anti-christ.

You religious types are whacky. The last time someone said 'try to be nice to each other, don't fight or kill people, consider your neighbours, be kind to people' etc you nailed him to a cross for it. Then you spend the next 2000 years agreeing with everything he said.

Well I would pretty much agree with all of those ideas (except that war is sometimes inevitable) - so it doesn't surprise me that I spend a lot of my time being attacked.
Lol it makes me think though, that if Jesus ever came back these days and said all these same things again, he would probably be nailed to another cross for being a weak lily livered pacifist liberal.

And before you get your panties in a wudge, that was a joke too. You see the humour in that, right?

Q

Frodo301 · Feb 26, 2003, 11:36 PM

The problem as I see it is if one person's/persons' religion controls the policy of a government then it is dead wrong.

~~ByteMe~~ · Feb 27, 2003, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BWX232
If there was a choice "does raid517 WISH he was the anti-christ" -I would have voted for that one.

Before you get your panties in a wudge, it was only a joke. You see the humer in that, right?

Separation of church and state is why America was founded.--- One of the main reasons.

Sorry dude, that is a common misconception.

The phrase "separation of church and state" is not found in the Constitution anywhere.

I am NOT religious, but this I believe is a topic that many facts are not well known.

ToshiroOC · Feb 27, 2003, 07:18 AM

But Byteme, surely you can admit that the separation of church and state is a core concept to America? Oh, lots of info for the uninformed at HERE, HERE, and HERE.

Amusing quiz here too if you think you really know your stuff

I haven't read everything at these links, so I won't vouch for accuracy...

ToshiroOC

BWX · Feb 27, 2003, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Lol well that just about tops it, now I'm being compared to the anti-christ. You religious types are whacky. The last time someone said 'try to be nice to each other, don't fight or kill people, consider your neighbours, be kind to people' etc you nailed him to a cross for it. Then you spend the next 2000 years agreeing with everything he said. Well I would pretty much agree with all of those ideas (except that war is sometimes inevitable) - so it doesn't surprise me that I spend a lot of my time being attacked.
Lol it makes me think though, that if Jesus ever came back these days and said all these same things again, he would probably be nailed to another cross for being a weak lily livered pacifist liberal.

And before you get your panties in a wudge, that was a joke too. You see the humour in that, right?

Q

Yeah, but who is the religious type?
Anyway, according to the Bible, the next time Jesus comes back, there won't be anyone calling him a pacafist- I think it says he's gonna come down here and kick the anti-christ's ass back to hell (or something like that)

Remember that little war described as Armagendon?

The_Neon_Cowboy · Feb 27, 2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BWX232
If there was a choice "does raid517 WISH he was the anti-christ" -I would have voted for that one.

Before you get your panties in a wudge, it was only a joke. You see the humer in that, right?

Separation of church and state is why America was founded.--- One of the main reasons.

The constituion was partially built on Religion / Religious beliefs at that time... !!!

JavaFox · Feb 27, 2003, 04:11 PM

Judeo-Christian beliefs are at the core of what American stands for. While I agree that nobody should be coerced into beliefs, there is something to be said about tradition. And I think a lot of people are far too knee-jerk in their reactions when religion and state are mentioned. They can coexist, even under our Constitution. But largely, I agree with the main point: gov't should be independed of religion.

mizzer · Feb 27, 2003, 05:53 PM

The question is too simple. A "religious" man in politics will probably attempt to affect politics by pushing his doctrine. A "spiritual" man in politics will affect politics simply through his behavior.

BWX · Feb 27, 2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mizzer
The question is too simple. A "religious" man in politics will probably attempt to affect politics by pushing his doctrine. A "spiritual" man in politics will affect politics simply through his behavior.

Mhh, yeah, but most religious men are "spiritual" men. I would hope that a religious guy would push his doctrin by setting an example through his behavior.

If you had a daughter, who would you rather have spending time around her (by being their boss or whatever)- Bill Clinton or George Bush? Since I wouldn't want my daughter to be fighting off sexual advances or favoritism do to what she looks like, I would have to say George Bush. Ya know what I mean? He is the more "spiritual" of the two, and I would say he shows that through his personal life.

mizzer · Feb 27, 2003, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BWX232
Mhh, yeah, but most religious men are "spiritual" men. I would hope that a religious guy would push his doctrin by setting an example through his behavior.

If you had a daughter, who would you rather have spending time around her (by being their boss or whatever)- Bill Clinton or George Bush? Since I wouldn't want my daughter to be fighting off sexual advances or favoritism do to what she looks like, I would have to say George Bush. Ya know what I mean? He is the more "spiritual" of the two, and I would say he shows that through his personal life.

I see what you're saying. Let me be more complete: often, church-going individuals demand that non-church-going individuals adhere to their religious standards of behavior (i.e. "pushing their doctrine"). This is done in ignorance of the Christian teaching that righteousness cannot be achieved through the exertion of man's will but only through the transforming power of God.

In contrast, a Spiritual man ("Spiritual" as in Holy Spirit; for there are other spirits) will draw people toward change through his actions alone. With power to live righteous given to him by God he will be an example for others seeking answers in this life.

BTW: I have two daughters. And I'd let them no where near Clinton. Ha!

BWX · Feb 27, 2003, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mizzer

BTW: I have two daughters. And I'd let them no where near Clinton. Ha!

LoL, I don't have any children(yet)- but I see you know what I mean.
Alls I have is two cats, but I don't think I would even want them anywhere near Clinton!!
I wouldn't want my girlfriend around him either.

mizzer · Feb 27, 2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BWX232
LoL, I don't have any children(yet)- but I see you know what I mean.
Alls I have is two cats, but I don't think I would even want them anywhere near Clinton!!
I wouldn't want my girlfriend around him either.

Ha!

Yah, I forgot about my cats. Lately one has not been feeling well and has consequently been vomiting everywhere. If it were up to me I'd try to get it as close to a car tire as possible, and I like cats! Well, this one I could do without. It's never found it's way on to my good side. But, alas, my wife adores it.

*sigh* I'll have to be really sneaky if I decide to take it out.

Feb 25, 2003, 12:17 AM	#1
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Should religeon have a role in politics? The question is, who should control Government? Should it be Government on behalf of the people? Should the people have a say in the way government is run, or as currently seems to be the case, should the government and the people subjugate themselves to the will of an unelected/unrepresentative Church? Here is an example of how letting the Church run government affairs can lead to some truly crazy contradictions. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/10/opinion/10KRIS.html and more here... http://linkthing.com/screed/faith-based_cluster.html The subject for debate is not the validity of religion or otherwise (so please no quoting from the bible to try to make a point). The question is should the Church have a role in Government - and if so what should it be? Or if you think the Church should not have a role in Government, what further measures do you think can be taken to curb the Church's role in political life? A poll has been posted so that you can express your views more fully. Q Last edited by raid517; Feb 25, 2003 at 01:57 AM.

Feb 25, 2003, 01:52 AM	#3
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,619 Rep Power: 0	Church + Government = No No exceptions. __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Feb 25, 2003, 02:04 AM	#4
UberLord A Legend in Underwear Join Date: May 2002 Location: Unknown Posts: 5,255 Rep Power: 0	NO! Religion has caused the biggest and bloodiest wars amongst men. Policitcs some second. __________________ Gentoo Linux - Developer (baselayout) Read my blog "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts

Feb 25, 2003, 08:13 AM	#5
radTube just keepin' it cool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 228 Rep Power: 0	A church doesn't have to be unelected/unrepresentative. AFAIK the officials in the Finnish State Church (Evangelic Lutheran or whatever it is in english) are elected, to some extent by regular Church members. Our Church is in many ways extremely tolerant and undiscriminating, and as such it's really not such a scary idea for me if it had a (small but not insignificant) part in our government. But anyway, raid probably meant something like the Church having a final say in all government decisions, and I agree that it's not the way to go. PS: No, I'm not a churchgoer myself. I just happen to think that the finnish Church is a fine establishment. __________________ [color=orange] [/color]

Feb 25, 2003, 09:45 AM	#7
radTube just keepin' it cool Join Date: May 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 228 Rep Power: 0	I didn't say that the Church really has an active role in our government. I just pointed out that I don't think it would unavoidably be such a horrible thing. I guess I should have made my case a bit clearer. I agree with your views about the Christian right though. __________________ [color=orange] [/color]

Feb 25, 2003, 01:45 AM	#2
~~ByteMe~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 761 Rep Power: 0	Well the USA was based on many of the ideals of the christians. Ideals ok... the rest can blow me.

Feb 25, 2003, 10:12 AM	#8
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Well God controls all politics and everything else. We all die.Also politicians although they ususally have a hard time realising it. BlueLight

Feb 25, 2003, 10:16 AM	#9
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	And....religion....is politics. In fact when peole say religion has caused more trouble than politics they arexcwrong since it is the same thing. The only difference is the name. Both is about gaining control i praqctice and both are and have been used for that. The crusaders might actually have believed they went to Jerusalem to rid it of "unfaithfuls" but the real missin was purely about power and money. Religion on a personal level can be "real" though. Bluelight

Feb 25, 2003, 10:39 AM	#10
merry gargouille Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 962 Rep Power: 0	The way I see it, government is an institution of the society specifically made for administration. Church is concerned with matters of the soul/spirit. The Army has it's specific role and so on. None should interfere with each other. __________________ There is a war between the ones who say there is a war and the ones who say there isn't. ~~Leonard Cohen

Feb 25, 2003, 11:51 PM	#14
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	I like how the question is "should religion have a role in government?" yet the options are all absolutes. I had no idea everything in life was black and white. Perhaps the "options" you've presented make clear your biases?

Feb 26, 2003, 12:16 AM	Thread Starter #15
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well I guess it is a kind of yay or nay poll. I don't think its practical to post 50 different options describing various different levels of the Church's involvement in politics. If you have a more detailed position, it is best perhaps expressed here. The poll is a simple additional way for people to express their views, I don't think it really means that much. For me though the matter very much is black and white. A religious cleric of any kind who expresses a purely 'political' view is a very dangerous thing indeed - and strict measures should be taken to prevent this from ever happening. Your view might be more complex than this. Its up to you if you have a position to express or not. Q Last edited by raid517; Feb 26, 2003 at 03:41 AM.

Feb 26, 2003, 03:30 AM	#16
The_Neon_Cowboy HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16,009 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	well if you use Religion in government then one chuch / religon will raise and then it's forceing people to one churches beleaves...it won't and can't work the seperation is vital to fairness and equality ..... Church + State = Opression also... and what about the people that have no religion? __________________

Feb 26, 2003, 10:39 AM	#18
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	If there was a choice "does raid517 WISH he was the anti-christ" -I would have voted for that one. Before you get your panties in a wudge, it was only a joke. You see the humer in that, right? Separation of church and state is why America was founded.--- One of the main reasons. __________________

Feb 26, 2003, 11:36 PM	#20
Frodo301 Outraged Join Date: May 2002 Location: The mountains Posts: 584 Rep Power: 0	The problem as I see it is if one person's/persons' religion controls the policy of a government then it is dead wrong.

Feb 27, 2003, 07:18 AM	#22
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	But Byteme, surely you can admit that the separation of church and state is a core concept to America? Oh, lots of info for the uninformed at HERE, HERE, and HERE. Amusing quiz here too if you think you really know your stuff I haven't read everything at these links, so I won't vouch for accuracy... ToshiroOC __________________ [img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Feb 27, 2003, 04:11 PM	#25
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	Judeo-Christian beliefs are at the core of what American stands for. While I agree that nobody should be coerced into beliefs, there is something to be said about tradition. And I think a lot of people are far too knee-jerk in their reactions when religion and state are mentioned. They can coexist, even under our Constitution. But largely, I agree with the main point: gov't should be independed of religion.

Feb 27, 2003, 05:53 PM	#26
mizzer HardwareHeaven Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 60 Rep Power: 0	The question is too simple. A "religious" man in politics will probably attempt to affect politics by pushing his doctrine. A "spiritual" man in politics will affect politics simply through his behavior.