temeteus82

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5343714.stm
My prays goes to the victims and their families that are suffering this horrible event...

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OmegaRED

So far the only fatality is the gunmen himself, hopefully it stays that way.

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Judas

Strict gun control won't stop a thing.... i will laugh if i hear it was unregistered gun.

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Gabriel_Etranil

My guess is that the guy was on something either prescribed or not, if so that is where I believe the real problem for this event lies.

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"I want to believe the voice in my head, but it lies"

pr0digal jenius

2 dead now....one woman, and the gunman [gunman killed the woman, wounded 19...and then police killed the gunman]


why's it always school? nobody ever shoots up much of anywhere else these days

SFOSOK

I think we need strict dumbass control

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pr0digal jenius

the only issue there is who determines the definition of "dumbass"

Pompey

I first head a bout it half way through a breaking news article on CNN and thought it was America before they said it was Canada.
Ill bet this was some emo kid who had been bullied half his life.

I think there should be gun controls, but people should have a right to them. For example, if you want a rifle you need to show that you have a legitimate need for one (like farmers, registered hunters etc). If you want a small handgun for "self defence" then ok, so long as you have no serious convictions, you’re mentally stable and you take classes/ prove you know how to use one.
The individuals 'right' has to be weighed against the risks to society. A gun is a tool that has no other purpose than to kill/harm - unlike a knife.

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Vikingod

Gun control would have done nothing to prevent this. If someone wants to kill someone, they will do it. If this guy is so obsessed with guns and death he certainly would have gotten these weapons out of the hands of the law. Gun control mainly effects those that acquire guns through legal channels, something I've a feeling this guy does not have much respect for.

The problem is not with guns, or video games (read this article ) or music, etc. It's got to do with irrational people trying to function in a rational society. Over the years, I've learned some people just can't function, and sometimes, tragically, this is the way they deal with it. Instead of adapting, they take this way out.

Its very easy to blame guns, and games, and bullies, and the media, and the war, and rock n roll, and rap, and their parents, and the school, and the cops, and MySpace, and movies, and the economy, and all that other stuff. IMO, its all an excuse. Chasing and trying to understand, repair, and restrict those avenues is not the way to combat this problem.

Maybe its got less to do with society and more to do with individuals too screwed up in the head to realize there is more to life than infamy and death? I mean, sure I want to be remembered, and hell, I was the victim of many a bully, and I sure have played a ton of video games and listened to dark music. Hell, I've even read scary, murderous books, and have a keen interest in vintage firearms. I've even been upset to the point where logic and consequences seemed to fade into nothing. I have a feeling we all have (ever been cheated on, or betrayed?). But have I ever thought something like this was a reasonable solution to my problems? No. Is that because my parents told me it wasn't? No, perhapes they didn't need to. Maybe the games I played weren't violent enough? Hmmm, maybe they were. Maybe that German Metal I used to love so much wasn't as hard as it is nowadays? I doubt that too.

Maybe society isn't the real problem. We all live there, why don't we all want to climb a clock tower and thin out the neighborhood? it's these few individuals that do these terrible acts, maybe the burden should be on them. Next in line are all the stupid bastards that didn't stand up and say something to the authorities when they realized maybe Johnny was a bit of his rocker. I doubt last year at this time this nutcase was working his way toward a Nobel Peace Prize. Hell, he was advertizing his sickness, plan as day, or anyone to see. I understand that is not the most satisfying conclusion, after all, its too simple.

Tinkerhell

I agree. Gun control & the idea thereof is a joke. The only thing that does is take firearms out of the hands of people that would only use them legitimately anyway. If someone is going to hurt others, even if they couldn't find a gun illegally (which isn't really any problem if you put your mind to it), they could find something else. I expect with little difficulty a 50 gallon propane tank (obtained at any gas station) and a flare and the same nut can cause just as much, or more destruction and death. To be very honest I think when this type of person end up using a gun(s) on a school it's not the worst thing possible. As I said. With just a bit of pre-planning, some creativity, and a trip to the local radio shack the same person could likely come up with something very nasty that would take out many more people... I feel sorry for those that have been hurt or that have had special people close to them hurt by these nuts but trying to take my guns away from me won't help that at all.

OmegaRED

He had 3 guns, at least one of which is an automatic gun. All were registered to him and he is a nut therefore better gun control is needed.

I want to know why the fuck anyone can buy an assault weapon like this at a gunshop in Canada


This isn't Iraq what possible reason would anyone need a gun like that which is clearly designed to kill people and nothing else.

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Tinkerhell

My point is still the same. Illegally obtaining guns is not hard to do at all.
But I'll play devils advocate and go with your thought - we need tougher gun control. Ok how? You can't just say - "No guns". At least not here in the USA, that whole constitutional right to keep & bear arms and all. So you say ok, we have to live with people having guns, fine, my main concern is that "nuts" have access to guns & in particular have access to full auto firearms. How do you resolve that? Nuts - fine so we require a psych test before you can get a permit for a gun.
1) how do you finance that? You can't make the potential gun owner have to pay for it because if they can't pay for it then you are preventing them from owning a firearm. The Constitution says you can't do that. So you have to figure out how to pay for it.
2) What test do you give them? A vast majority of "nuts" would pass any sort of psych test that might be feasible to give the average person wanting a gun. I mean you can't require someone to go in for a 3 day psych exam overseen by a qualified doctor. And besides, who says that I might be just fine & dandy & pass any test you give me today however five years from now after a series of traumatic experiences I might have snapped & be totally fruit loops.

So much for your better screening to keep guns out of "nuts" hands.

Next point - prevent full auto weapons from being available.
Have you done much research into full auto weapons? I can get a semi auto gun & with a few clicks on the interent & a few bucks spent at the hardware store I can turn it into a full auto. With some makes of gun it's no more difficult that filing down one piece of metal. So what good does that do to restrict who has what? Besides even now, to legally have a full auto weapon you have to obtain a special license, have it registered, be finger printed & on file with the FBI. The legally obtained guns really aren't a problem for the most part. I would say it makes things easier for the "nut" scenario but how do you prevent it?

And the bottomw line again is that even if you say "Nope, no more guns for anyone period". Felony offense. That means the only people with guns will be criminals. And besides myself and about a billion other american will still have our guns. You want to come to the door & and demand them because I'm a good guy & I've registered all my stuff so you know I have them. Opps. Seems they were stolen a while back. Got a search warrent to go through my house. Ok, go ahead. After you leave I'll give it a month or so then go in my back yard & dig em up & hide in the house again. Know how much it costs to get a warrent, have the officers turn the house over. Going to do that a couple million times. How you going to pay for it? It won't happen.

For the USA, guns are here & are not going away. I'll be damned if I'm goin to be in a situation where some thief can come in rape my wife, shoot my dog rob my home while I'm forced to sit by & watch after he's beat the crap out of me all because isolated cases of bad things happen where someone did bad things with a gun.

Going to take my car awayt too? Know how many cases of vehiclular homicide happen each year? Drunk driving?

I say again, it's a bad thing that happened, I feel sorry for those invovled, but even if my child had been at the school & been hurt or killed, I would not be a proponent of gun control. It's a mean old world, bad shit happens even to good people.

Pompey

No one here is saying ban guns, were saying (or im saying at least) that there needs to be laws governing who gets them and an official register of all the legally held guns in the country.

There is a system already in place like this, but before you can get a gun there needs to be a background check for criminal and medical records (including psychiatric history) to prevent knowing violent or mentally unstable people from getting access to a dangerous weapon. This wont catch everybody, but it will catch most people.
Another reason why it is a good idea to have a register is that if there is murder, it is easier for the police to track down the gun that did it. This only works if the gun is registered, but it is better than having no register at all.
Just because its easy to improvise an automatic weapon does not mean they should be legal. There is no reasonable ground for having one.

Now to the main bit of your argument, that people have access to guns illegally.
People still get murdered even though we have laws against it, so does that mean we should legalise murder? of course not!
If someone uses an illegal firearm in an assault or bank robbery then that is another few years that can be waked onto his or her sentence. That’s another few years that a violent criminal is kept away from the community.

Cars are registered, you need a licence to drive one and it is illegal to drive without either of these or a warrant of fitness. Drink driving is illegal, there are laws restricting things like speed and of course mandatory use of seat belts.

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Zelig

That gun is actually a Beretta CX4 Storm. It's a semiautomatic carbine which fires pistol ammo, and is legal in Canada as long as you don't have a criminal record.

Really? I could probably manage the same thing, given a carbine like the one used in the shooting, but given as I'm not trained as a gunsmith, chances are pretty good it would end up prone to jams and misfirings, and far less effective than just using in burst mode.

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temeteus82

More stupid people with guns.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5387062.stm


I hope that that situation will solve peacefully.

[EDIT] Well it didn't end nicely... one killed and the gunman shoot himself ...

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ekinlegend

Some people like to collect guns. I agree on stricter laws but dont think they should be banned. That gun looks nice btw.

SFOSOK

Strict gun laws do absolutely nothing.

Its like saying I could really go for a sweet piece of cheesecake right now but the government has banned it because it will make you fat if you eat too much. Laws should be stricter and have several test including psycological profiling that determine how best you are equiped mentally to handle a weapon.

To a lot of people gun's are part of their culture and restricting their culture because some f*cknut decided to kill a bunch of people is not the answer.




Hell pens are dangerous. What if somebody went around killing other people with pens? Should we ban everything sharp to protect people. The thing is, if someone wants to kill somebody they'll do it. What about swords and knives? Those are highly decorative and traditional items. What if all the guns in the world were banned and people started using knives instead. Ok lets say all the knives and swords are banned. Now people start getting killed with anything that can be sharpened to kill people or just plain run over people with their cars.

Ok, we live in a world of soft plastic and foam cars. Someone chokes someone to death. Ok so now all of our arms are tied to our bodies...Someone headbuts someone else to death....

Ok ok, so now they wear shock collars in their neck braces and are restricted from bumping into each other too hard.




What expect to do? Live in a f*ckin bubble?


People die, and people die because other people kill them (by any means).

Get over it!

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IamLakota

If you take away all the guns only the criminals will have them.
Me I prefer my bow and arrows and my kinves but I do own several guns and I'll not give them up willingly,to coin a pharse They'll get my guns when the pry them from my cold dead hands",and yes I am a Proud member of The NRA.

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temeteus82

Your guns are stored in a place where you only have access??

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Sandok

Meh people on the Northeren Continent of America are just a bit cookoo... Everyone has guns in Switzerland (every man to be precis) and what, we have like 0 gun deaths a year. No school shootings, no nothing...

temeteus82

Yeah, the Swiss military gives the guns to them ans trains them how to use it. And they are kept in safe place. Right?

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Maddogg6

The old saying...
Guns dont kill people - people kill people...

the real problem here as I see it...

Parents are too busy, bustin their asses paying for homes, cars and toys they cant afford, to teach their kids simple respect (self and otherwise).

They are too busy paying off christmas debt - which ends up being the parents 'conscience cleaning' for all the time they DIDNT spend with their kids - it seems kids get iPods instead of attention these days.

Maddogg6

Let us not forget grocery carts - you know how many kids that either die or are injured for life because of them? Prolly not. They keep they pretty quiet here. but we would NEVER consider a ban on shopping carts - now would we ladies? Yet - it happens way more than these (OP) incidents....

Whats the common factor of - ALL gun violence - if you ignore the gun - its the PERSON' pulling the trigger when its aimed at another PERSON.

Gun violence is NOT the problem is IS A SYMPTOM.

temeteus82

In other words parents don't have time to raise their kids and the kids just watch TV and see violence...

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SFOSOK

Maybe we should all just eat our children and end the world right now

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The_Neon_Cowboy

Yes, who wants everyday people having guns? When it can just be the criminals
that are armed to the hilt picking the helpless regular every day Joe clean or mowing
people down at will. People helpless until police arrives... how ever long that takes...

I mean if I had a gun and ran around here shooting people a few minutes in I be in
a freaking gun fight and eating much lead as people have guns. In you gun control
guys world I could kill the whole freaking neighborhood and be gone before the
police shows up...

Armed robbery would rise as people would effectively bringing a knife to a gun fight.
It actually prevents crime as well as such a robber usally doesnt want to die thus
fears breaking into places. As they could be greeted with a gun toteing grandma
with a ichy trigger finger....

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temeteus82

For some reason we here have strict gun control. And we don't have armed robbery's every day .... That might bee because that people needed guns to protect themselves from the wildlife in 1900th century USA. And we newer had to have guns for that purpose.

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TheBlackCat

I personally do not like the NRA or the anti-gun crowd. Both groups, as is generally the case, are just too extreme and too dogmatic. The NRA rejects any gun restrictions whatsoever, which I find stupid. The anti-gun crowd (the most extreme members) reject any gun ownership whatsoever, which I find equally stupid. As is the case in most issues, the best course of action appears to be somewhere in between the two extremes.


The fundamental issue is that there is a difference between have restrictions on guns and a ban on guns. This distinction seems to be lost on some people, particularly the NRA. There are two real issues here: making guns as difficult or risky for criminals to get as possible, and making guns that are needlessly powerful hard to get.

Certainly granny doesn't need to be lugging around a fully-automatic AK47. That sort of gun is simply not necessary for self-defense. The only real role it has is offensive, not defensive. Spraying high-velocity bullets around during a home invasion is an excelent way to kill your kids, pets, and neighbors. You would be much better of with a small, easily-controllable gun designed for easy of use in enclosed spaced and penetrating non-armored targets (you don't want to shoot through a wall and kill a neighbor). Similarly, no one is going to be walking down the street with an AK47 in their back pocket. There are certain sorts of guns law-abiding people just do not need, or in fact would be better off not having. Since law-abiding people have no real use for those guns, the only logical role (short of just having it for show) is for aggressive purposes, either police or criminals. I am all for police having assault rifles available (although not fully-automatic ones). But those guns are just not helpful to everday people, or in fact are bad for them to have, so making them extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get is perfectly reasonable.

Second, in every choice you make there are percieved costs and benefits. Either subconciously or conciously you only choose to do something when the percieved benefits outweighs the percieved costs. Risks of something bad happening are percieved as costs. Therefore, increasing the perceived riskiness of a certain behavior will decrease the number of people willing to carry out that act. Sure criminals could still get guns no matter how many barriers you throw up in front of them. However, each additional barrier adds additional cost to getting a gun, be it time, money, dealing with risky people, or risk of getting in trouble with the law. Thus, it would reduce the number of criminals willing to get guns. Naturally you want law-abiding people to be able to defend themselves, and restricting the percieved ability for everyday people to own guns increases the percieved benefit for criminals to own a gun and very well might balance out or even outweigh the increase in costs. We definitely don't want criminals to think guns are better with the restrictions, which may very well have happened in some states.

So the trick is making it as difficult for criminals to get guns while not making it seem as though potential victims are unarmed. Making sure people convicted of violent crimes cannot get guns legally is a way to do this. This includes gun shows, since having a legal way to own guns without any real difficulty completely ruins everything. Having a national gun registry to increase the perception of risk to getting a gun for criminals or selling a gun to criminals is also logical (it is not just the criminals we want to discourage, but also the people selling to them). Making them jump through a lot of hoops to get the most dangerous guns is also logical. Making sure legal gun owners are trained in proper use of their gun is another good method, since it increases the risk of trying to use a gun in a crime.

These sorts of choices are generally not concious. They are going on the subconcious of everybody in every decision they make. No action is taken unless subconciously or conciously it is deemed to have more benefits that costs. It is all a matter of manipulating particular groups' perception of costs and benefits in order to maximize the number of people who make the choice we went them to make. Everyone percieves costs and benefits differently, it is all a matter of maximizing the number of people who make the choice we want and minimizing the number of people who make the choice we don't.

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Pompey

Having a gun doesn’t necessarily mean it will protect you from being robed or whatever, I think it provides more peace of mind than anything else.
Think about it. Let’s take the scenario of someone breaking into your house. To do anything about it you first of all have to be home. And most importantly you have to have access to your gun before the intruder notices what you’re doing (and that could be hard to do, unless you’re one of those irresponsible people who puts it in a place a 3yr old could find). And in many different scenarios you could easily end up with a hostage situation or for some other reason things may not go your way.

Im not part of the 'anti-gun' lobby but people need to realize a gun many not give them the level of protection they think it will give them.

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SFOSOK

Did you know in a few states people are allowed to carry concealed weapons on them (handguns) with the proper permit. With that permit comes the responsibility of a citizen's arrest type deal, like if a man robs a liquor store you are expected to defuse with the situation acordingly and can be fined and such if they did absolutely nothing about it. I think this is for states with few law enforcement and its nearly impossible to get the permit.

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