Smoothdrive

To be complete..and perhaps finally close this discussion..the immigrant problem i'm reffering to ..it is not the immigrants, not even the number of immigrants, it is the way they integrate in society.

Most immigrants in Holland live in low-rent big house area's where they are good for about 98% of the population. Because of this a lot of them do not speak any other language than Turkish or Arabian..there's no need to speak Ducth for them. Because of the language they can hardly find jobs and are not aware of what their (Dutch speaking) children are up to..there's cases know of numerous arrests from a son yet the parents were unaware since they couldn't read the paperwork. The Children itself turn to crime at much higher rates than "Dutch", the unemployment record is due to language and educational problems way higher than for "Dutch"

All of these problems are not simply "because they are immigrants" but they are problems wich need resolving..

Clear now which immigrant problem i was talking about ?

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raid517

No perhaps not, but are you denying he would have liked any more immigrants from gaining access to them? At the end of the day its the same difference.

So were debating the difference between the words "backwards" and "behind" hu? OK then. Who in your view might I ask are Muslim people 'behind' and by what standard do you measure them? To be behind someone you must believe you have a benchmark and that all Muslims are below that benchmark. So if that bench mark is the preferable standard, would it not be justifiable to consider that benchmark to be superior to the one that set a lower standard? So if you believe in a set of standards, ethics and morals that people must meet and that those who do not meet them have a lesser belief system, or lower ethical standards or have, lower moral values then does not that set them apart from you? Does not this infer that people who feel this way believe Muslims to be less valuable members of a society than those they feel meet this benchmark? I guess to certain people this still does not sound racist. In any case in the UK, in the English language even, when you say someone is 'behind' this is usually a euphemism for someone you believe lacks mental acuity. So going by this reasoning, either you are saying that Muslims are morally, or are mentally backwards? I'm not entirely clear which?

No I think you underestimate the access the modern world has to communications technologies. Some of us actually have things like (let me spell it out for you) n e w s p a p e r s, or r a i d i o , or, in some casest e l e v i s i o n , and if we arre very lucky, we have something called the i n t e r n e t too .

In this crazy modern world we live in access to information is very quick and very easy. And you know what, we are also very fortunate too to have our own brains that enable us to interpret this information in whatever way we see fit. Of course you might not see it that way, but it doesn't stop anyone else from seeing it that way. Unless your saying that people who are not living in Holland should not have a right to comment on internal Dutch politics? Hmm where have I heard that before? Or maybe you mean that the people on this forum specifically lack the intelligence to understand and interpret the things they read for themselves? Do you mean all foreigners lack this capacity, or just some specific groups? Perhaps you feel that people in the UK are less able to interpret complex information than anyone else? Maybe the entire world's press were conspiring when their language experts, many of whom are native Dutch speakers, interpreted Pim Fortuin's remark precisely as meaning 'backwards'?

As for making things up. I don't think there's much need for that, as you are now helping very much to clarify your views on these matters. Perhaps you want to clarify further though? Might I ask do you believe immigration should be curtailed, if so which groups of people would you like to see prevented from entering your country and on what basis would you exclude them?

Lol Nope. You mentioned him first. The only right wing racist Dutch SOB I know of that got shot recently, was Pim Fortuijn. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure you would like to.

I claimed not to be very interested. Not to be unaware of right wing politics in Europe. Facism in Europe is sadly a subject with which I am all too familiar.

So no one should criticize the memory of the great man? Well I'm sorry I am criticizing him, and whether you will stand for it or not, this is an open forum and that is what is happening. I don't know what the worry is, I mean he's hardly likely to be shot again. Unless Holland has some other right wing charismatic racist up its sleeve waiting to replace him? In which case no one here is likely to shoot them. Like I said I don't agree with mixing violence with politics. If someone else wants to shoot another right wing racist extremist, I will condemn this too. However if that racist were ever to overstep the mark and start preaching violence towards people of other cultures and regions then I would think they would deserve everything that was coming to them. Preferably however the law would have provisions that would allow for non violent ways of dealing with these people. Fortuijn might not have lived long enough to ever say any of this stuff, but I suspect that is possibly simply because he was too clever ever to go that far.

So what would you do with immigrants? Personally I welcome immigrants. I enjoy the diversity and colour they bring to our culture. I find it deeply gratifying that they would choose our country as a place to come. Moreover I recognise the massive contribution that immigrants make to our economy. So how would you suggest we could enhance this relationship? Or are you saying we shouldn't? I am trying hard not to make any assumptions here, since you have advised me that it would be best not to.

Well anyway, I'm sure you want to stick to your guns about the problematic nature of (Muslim?) immigration and I will stick to mine saying that on the whole immigration is a largely beneficial practice. In the longer term I'm sure my perspective will win out. People are constantly moving around these days, so how you will ever prevent this, without actively eliminating those you do not wish to enter your country I do not know. Immigration controls are only of limited effectiveness. In truth in modern Western Europe, if our economies are to survive and grow, we need many more immigrants not less.

Q

raid517

No, I don't see an immigrant problem. I see a societal problem - and one your government needs to work very hard to resolve. Improved housing, better access to education, more attempts to offer opportunities for integration, are all efforts than need to be made. I would suggest that simply saying 'ban their assess', is unlikely to resolve anything. Indeed it is just papering over the cracks of an apparently malfunctioning society.

Mmm.. A typically right wing racist tactic, create a moral panic about out of control immigrants and paint them as traditionally poor and unable to fend for themselves. Then pick out isolated incidents of crime and paint them as if they are some how unique to that ethnic group and no other. How about Dutch criminals, are you equally concerned about them? Are they reported as frequently in the media as is crime committed by white Dutch citizens? If crime among ethnic minorities is higher, why do you think that might be? Do you think its because they carry some genetic flaw that other white Western Europeans do not, or is it possibly that they lack access to the same amount of opportunities as their Western counterparts due to racist attitudes in society? how should we address this? Should we ban the immigrants, or should we seek to address these racist attitudes? I wonder which solution you would prefer?

Q

Smoothdrive

Man do you have a twisted picture of reality..wooh the evil one is out there woooh

Funny how you leave out my coment "All of these problems are not simply "because they are immigrants" but they are problems wich need resolving.." guess the quote you used looked much better with your story without this concluding line...hmm what's the word again..tabbloid journalism?

Really if you gave me a choice between you and a nazi i'ld ask "what's the difference ? one is left one is right but further they are exactly the same "

You dream on man..you're not open for discussion there's more than just black and white in this world..fail to see that is failing to be able to discuss topics like this. All you have done is just looking for opportunities to push me into the racist corner..oh well typical for a certain kind of people..hope you don't own a gun..

Given you a second change at this discussion..won't give you a third..be well.

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raid517

Well at least if the evil one is out there, he's not very big and he's not very scary.

No? Then why have you spent so much of your time discussing immigrants and immigration? If it isn't a problem for you why bring it up?

The difference between me and a Nazi is I would say you are entitled to your point of view, whereas a Nazi would say 'no your not'. Which perspective do you find more appealing?

Well I'm glad you acknowledge that there is more than just black and white in this world. Would you also say that cultural and ethnic differences were a positive thing?

As for not being open for discussion, I am perfectly open to discussion. Indeed I am willing to discuss this topic and your views on it for as long as you want. In truth I think we have really come quite far in discussing both of our respective views on these matters, even if they are very different.

As I have previously noted, if you feel you're in a racist corner it is you who walked there of your own free accord, no one pushed you there.

Well since I am against violence to further purely political goals, there would be no reason for me to own a gun. Mind you, if fascism ever raised its ugly head in Europe again I would be only too pleased to take up arms to fight against it.

Well thanks for the spare change I'm sure. But really this topic had moved on until you decided to come back and refocus it on the subject of immigration again. Previously we had a very nice and very civilised little debate going about the rights and responsibilities of free speech in a modern democratic society. On this specific topic there was a lot of meeting of minds.

Perhaps if you want to discuss this group in the context of individual rights to freedom of expression and political representation within a modern democratic multiethnic society, we might actually find something useful and positive to say? But then perhaps not. The choice is yours.

Any time you want to pick up the topic on that basis, feel free to let me know. Unfortunately I refuse to discuss the racist topic of banning immigrants or of actively restricting immigrant’s rights.

Q