[FuNsTeR]

why is it when westerners live in muslim countries we are expected to live by their rules and laws .... yet when muslims come to live in our countries they do not have to integrate and live by our rules and laws .... have we become to soft .... personally i believe if they are not happy by our rules and laws .... they should f*ck off back to their own country

[Sandok]

Stop living in the middle ages mate You cannot everyone to mix well and if people loose some of their traditions by coming into your country, then I'd hate to live there.

And not ALL muslims are like that... A very small miniority. I hate it when people generalize so much. Add to that that the muslim religion is still young (1200 years younger than the christian religion and 2500 years younger than the hindu religion) so you can't expect them to have the maturity of other religions (in a manner of speaking). WIht time, it will evolve.

[MIG-31]

That is the same comments i agree with as a whole,The uk has become so damn boring due to being told What can or can't be said out in the public society.I do believe these officials (if you can call them that) are the cause of the problems.But this has to be the comments of a eastern white person in general.It's just a pitty a minor amount try the hardest to ruin all intentions of a peacefull world.

I'm not a racist person,it's just so annoying to keep reading idiotic one sided articles (most of these are from our councils officials) in the news on a regular basis.It's just so sad the uk is gradually becoming a eastern nation without this being noticed.

(im not to good explaining my intention,i hope you will understand).

[Falstaff]

I believe it is the diversity that will eventually destroy or enhance our society, it is inevitable that other cultures will come to the free world to prosper, but we must observe tolerance for their ways and treat them as we would any ordinary citizen, with respect to our laws. However.....
Anti American rhetoric and flag burning will not be tolerated...freedom of speech be damned.

[FuNsTeR]

Mig .... the thing that really p!sses me off about the whole thing is that some muslims want to create a state within a state ffs they want sharia law (or whatever its called) in areas mainly populated by muslims .... the really sad thing is some poeple would allow them to have sharia law


i should have said in my initial post that it was aimed at muslim fundamentalists

Originally Posted by MIG-31

That is the same comments i agree with as a whole,The uk has become so damn boring due to being told What can or can't be said out in the public society.I do believe these officials (if you can call them that) are the cause of the problems.But this has to be the comments of a eastern white person in general.It's just a pitty a minor amount try the hardest to ruin all intentions of a peacefull world.

I'm not a racist person,it's just so annoying to keep reading idiotic one sided articles (most of these are from our councils officials) in the news on a regular basis.It's just so sad the uk is gradually becoming a eastern nation without this being noticed.

(im not to good explaining my intention,i hope you will understand).

[BlueMak]

What I am very worried about is if muslims get even more population and power in some western countries and combined with either small or large attacks, we have a rise of, well, a new form of nazism to counter balance the muslim "experience".
To answer your question, yes, the west has become too soft, but I am not sure if it will remain like this for long.

On the other hand, take a look what happened in the ex Yugoslavia up and including the events in Kosovo. The serbians were immediately declared the bad guys of the conflict and the muslims the victims. I am not saying the serbians were nice or anything, but I hate seeing two ways of looking at the same actions.

I am worried about the future, at the same time I say, let it come.

[Sandok]

Even if there are a lot of muslims in the west, the western world has enough power to make sure they never existed if deemed necessary. The more they attack our way of life, the more they bring their own doom closer to themselves.

In hindi, we have a saying that generally means; the muslims will be the first to go. Its just inenvatible.

[TheBlackCat]

Originally Posted by Sandok

Add to that that the muslim religion is still young (1200 years younger than the christian religion and 2500 years younger than the hindu religion)

I am not exactly sure where you are getting these numbers. Islam is less than 600 years younger than Christianity (Christianity being founded probably sometime between 0 and 100 AD with Islam being founded between 500 and 600 AD).


It seems like every subgroup wants to impose their own rules. There are many Christian fundamentalists in the US who wish to impose their own selective interpretation of Christianity on others as laws. It seems like there is always groups within any immigrant population that want their own language and customs institutionalized in areas in which they live (this generally seems to disappear after the second or third generation). None of this is unique to Muslims. There always seems to be some resistance to integration within any immigrant population lasting for a few generations. And there is always resistance to these efforts from populations that have already integrated to a larger degree.

[merry]

Originally Posted by FuNsTeR

yet when muslims come to live in our countries they do not have to integrate and live by our rules and laws .... have we become to soft ....

Actually, they DO have to live by our rules and laws. There is no law forcing anybody to drink wine or eat pork, or preventing the use of veils, or keeping the Ramadan. As for exploding bombs in public places, not only is it not tolerated, but it's against their own laws too.

Tolerance is not a weakness, on the contrary, only the strong can afford it.

[Pompey]

As people have already pointed out Muslims do have to live by the same laws as everyone else and its not just Muslims that don’t share the same values, take the exclusive brethren for example.
They shouldn’t be expected to give up their culture if they don’t want to. What do you think freedom is? The freedom to conform?
I am fine with them wearing the veil, so long as they are happy to remove it for and identification purposes.

Im 1/2 Dutch and our house is full of pewter ornaments, tapestries on our tables and heaps of other stuff. So are the houses of my relatives. My Oma still has more dutch friends living here than she has "kiwi" friends. So what! If you are worried about how someone dresses, how they decorate their home and whether or not they associate with people from the same culture then you have a VERY sad life.

What I find amazing is many of the same people who attack Muslims for trying to force their morality on others and not integrating are the same ones that oppose things like gay marriage on moral grounds.

[BlueMak]

Where of course the muslim community is vastly in favour of free choice and supports the marriage between gays...

[SFOSOK]

As far as the millitary goes we should not modify our tactics based on a holy month coming up. I'm sorry but when it comes to our soldiers dieing or us killin theirs, I go for the second. We can't just wait around to die just cause we might hurt a family's feelings while they are fasting for rammadon

It does seem like ignoring or making fun of anything that has to do with Islam will get suicide bombers at your doorstep. We shouldn't have to be afraid of that.

[TheBlackCat]

Originally Posted by SFOSOK

As far as the millitary goes we should not modify our tactics based on a holy month coming up. I'm sorry but when it comes to our soldiers dieing or us killin theirs, I go for the second. We can't just wait around to die just cause we might hurt a family's feelings while they are fasting for rammadon

Yes, disrespecting their culture and treating their customs and religion as if they do not matter is is a perfect way to make them happier about being occupied by a foreign country and thus stop killing our soldiers and each other.

Ultimately we are occupying a foreign country. Like in all occupations, many local people are unhappy about that. Like in all occupations where many local people are unhappy about being occupied, local people are trying to kill the occupation forces. Making local people more unhappy about being occupied by making them feel that their occupiers are completely unconcerned with the locals and their feelings is probably not the ideal way to make them happier about being occupied.

[BlueMak]

Yes, the allied forces should leave Iraq so that we finaly have everlasting peace and stability in Iraq. Let's not forget that the people there want nothing than peace and would throw away their weapons and denounce violence if the allied forced would leave the country. After all it is not like they support violence in general. As for them killing each other every day, well, that is the allied forces' fault too...yes, truly!


(for the slow among us, the whole post is sarcastic).

[TheBlackCat]

Originally Posted by BlueMak

Yes, the allied forces should leave Iraq so that we finaly have everlasting peace and stability in Iraq. Let's not forget that the people there want nothing than peace and would throw away their weapons and denounce violence if the allied forced would leave the country. After all it is not like they support violence in general. As for them killing each other every day, well, that is the allied forces' fault too...yes, truly!


(for the slow among us, the whole post is sarcastic).

Strawman. I never claimed leaving would help. We are there now, the country has been hopelessly destabalized, and the Iraqis hate each other almost as much as they hate us. But not even trying to get along with the locals is really not the best way to improve their view of us.

Ultimately most people would kill our soliders if given sufficeint reason. Heck, most americans would kill our sodliers if given an extreme enough reason (our country has gotten to that point several times already). The more we piss off the Iraqis, the larger the number people there who have reached the point at which they turn violent. The less people we piss off or, better yet, the better the job we do to appease them the fewer the number of people who will want to kill us. It is all a matter of price, in a way. Everybody has a balance between living a normal life and protecting their dignity/culture/way of life/government/religion/livelihood/etc. The larger the percieved threats to the latter, the more likely they are to give up the former to protect it. So we have to minimize the percieved threat we pose in order to maximize the number of people who just want to get on with their lives.

Disrespecting their culture and religion is an excellent way to convince people there that normally just do their day-to-day routine that they should give that up and try to kill us.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by FuNsTeR

why is it when westerners live in muslim countries we are expected to live by their rules and laws .... yet when muslims come to live in our countries they do not have to integrate and live by our rules and laws .... have we become to soft .... personally i believe if they are not happy by our rules and laws .... they should f*ck off back to their own country

We only respect cultures that are a threat to us. Insulting Muslims=certain death.

[ronnn]

Originally Posted by BlueMak

Yes, the allied forces should leave Iraq so that we finaly have everlasting peace and stability in Iraq. Let's not forget that the people there want nothing than peace and would throw away their weapons and denounce violence if the allied forced would leave the country. After all it is not like they support violence in general. As for them killing each other every day, well, that is the allied forces' fault too...yes, truly!


(for the slow among us, the whole post is sarcastic).

Allied? Here I thought it was the Americans with a few token Brits. I think Iraq and Afganistan are unwinnable wars, so best to offer real aide and back off or maybe just back off.

[BlueMak]

1) (not you personaly) Stop being afraid of "disrespecting their culture/religion", unless you do not leave a free democratic country, you shouldn't have to control yourself. Many people have suffered and died for "you and me" to have our freedoms today. If people from other countries do not like our IDEAS and freedom of speech, fuck 'em.

In addition to the above,

2)Leave Iraq. Seriously, get the hell out of Iraq as soon as possible. Let them massacre themselves freely, let them either split the country or let them try to reach their virgins as soon as possible, it is their country, their right to die for it...

Iraq's oil is not THAT important no matter what some people think.

After a while Iraqis will see how good this so called occupation realy "was". Or even better, free Saddam, see how they like their butt plugs.
The people there fighting each other do not even deserve freedom IMO, they are too stupid to even fight what they see as an occupational force. Case in point (or something), Greece during the nazi occupation. There were two sides of rebels fighting the germans. The pro monarhy and/or pro "west" and the communist. They hated each other, still they worked TOGETHER to fight the occupation force, and after the germans left, starting to kill each other and everyone in between, sure they killed almost as many greeks as the germans did, but at least they had the brains to fight off the invader first. Free Iraq! Give it back to Saddam!

[TheBlackCat]

It is easy enough for us. We are a relatively new country with no ancient conflicts. Iraq is the site of one of, if not the, first civilizations. It's culture goes back a long time, and so do its rivalries. The British basically forced three cultures that have hated each other for hundreds, maybe even over a thousand, years.

The US had its own conflicts due to two different cultures being lumped together. It ultimately tore us in two and led to the bloodiest war in history to that point. We were only able to continue as a country be outlawing the difference that ultimately caused the war in the first place. That is not as easy to do with religion, although Saddam seems to have tried to a degree.

I personally think Iraq should not exist. Iraq is 3 countries that were forced to be together for no good reason and now when that force has been lifted is trying to do what it natrually would do: not be a single country. So just do that. Split it into the three countries it normally would be. Instead of trying to rig the government so that minority groups aren't abused by the majority or vice versus, simply give them each their own government. The three different populations are mostly geographically localized and seperate from each other. There are a few people that would have to move but it is better than them dying in a massive civil war that would probably ultimately end in the same result anyway. I know that it may be seen as a failure by some people, but it seems to be the most practical solution and the one most likely to succeed. I know some of our "allies" in the middle east may be concerned with the idea of an independent Kurdish state when they have Kurdish regions bordering the one in Iraq, but I honestly don't really care. The fact is Iraq is a failure, so now it is a matter of minimizing the extent of the failure. And staving off a civil war is definitely a way to do that.

Originally Posted by BlueMak

The people there fighting each other do not even deserve freedom IMO, they are too stupid to even fight what they see as an occupational force. Case in point (or something), Greece during the nazi occupation. There were two sides of rebels fighting the germans. The pro monarhy and/or pro "west" and the communist. They hated each other, still they worked TOGETHER to fight the occupation force, and after the germans left, starting to kill each other and everyone in between, sure they killed almost as many greeks as the germans did, but at least they had the brains to fight off the invader first. Free Iraq! Give it back to Saddam!

Yes, that happened with the communists and nationalists in China with the Japanese occupation as well. The difference in those two cases is that, although they had their differences, they were all Greeks or all Chinese. They wanted success for all of Greece or all of China. It doesn't seem that Iraqis truly consider themselves part of one group like that. It seems like they consider themselves part of 3 largely distinct groups, and they consider the other groups just as much of a threat as the Americans. Many seem to have no concern at all with killing those outsiders. And Americans are extremely difficult to reach in significant numbers. Local targets are much more readily available. Nor do they seem particularly concerned with killing other groups along with their primary American targets. The Nazi and Japanese occupation forces were much more spread out, much less locked in their fortification, much more easily accessible, and much closer to the level of the resistance in terms of equipment at that time.

[OnDborder]

Originally Posted by FuNsTeR

why is it when westerners live in muslim countries we are expected to live by their rules and laws .... yet when muslims come to live in our countries they do not have to integrate and live by our rules and laws .... have we become to soft .... personally i believe if they are not happy by our rules and laws .... they should f*ck off back to their own country

It's the same here, in the U.S., especially down here in the southwest with the Mexicans.
You live here you better learn the Mexican language.
Listen, do you honestly think this influx of these "foreigners" is accidental? After putting up with this invasion, down here in Az. for years, I've come to the conclusion that our goverment/politicians are letting this take place to make up for the "zero population" growth of the Americans. Especially caucasians.
They need monetary support for Social Security and other programs. Same goes with Europe.. The populations are getting older with no labor support so the easy way out, import the labor and tax base..
Pretty pitiful.. To bad..

[TheBlackCat]

Originally Posted by OnDborder

Listen, do you honestly think this influx of these "foreigners" is accidental?

No, it is the same with every other immigrant group that "invaded" this country and scared the previous immigrant groups. First it was the Irish. Then oriental people. Then Eastern Europeans. Now it is Latin Americans. (I may be missing a few, it has been half a decade since I studied the groups in detail). Every time the previous immigrant group gets integrated they cease do the low-paying jobs that they used to do because they were despereate, requiring the influx of a new immigrant group that will do those jobs because they are now desperate.

It has been happing like this practically since the beginning of the country. Every time it is an "invasion". Every time they are going to "dilute our culture". Every time they are going to "force us to learn their language". There is always crime in the immigrant areas, since there is always crime with poverty and desperation. There are always those within the groups who set themselves apart and serve as role models and emissaries. This is all nothing new. It has happened over and over and over and it will continue happening for the forseeable future. There are only a finite number of jobs that can be filled by immigrants. Once the demand for their services start dropping, the flow will slow down and after a generation or three they will intergrate and refuse to do those jobs anymore. Then the cycle will repeate with a new group, and the descendants of the latin american immigrants will be afraid of the new "invasion". Every one of us, except perhaps pure-bred Native Americans, were descended from immigrants at some point and elicited the same feeling from the established groups at the time.

And it is not unique to the US, either. It is common worldwide. Different established group, different immigrant group, same story.

[OnDborder]

When the census reports that the majority of the population will be "hispanic" maybe you'll realize this is totally different situation than what you've studied in the past..
Better open your eyes..
It's different than what you've studied is the "non-intregration" from the foreigners into the host country's language and customs. They don't have speak english, spanish, etc. if they don't want to.. They don't have to.
They don't have to learn the history of this country..
Also it was a controlled immigration. Certain percentage of Irish, Chinese, etc. were allowed to come in. Now it's a free-for-all for the Mexican's. You get here, you have kids, you stay here.

[OnDborder]

Oh well this is going to solve our all our problems anyway.. The Feds are here to help.. http://www.spp.gov/

[TheBlackCat]

Originally Posted by OnDborder

When the census reports that the majority of the population will be "hispanic" maybe you'll realize this is totally different situation than what you've studied in the past..
Better open your eyes..

There is something known as "projecting beyond the region of fit". You simply cannot predict population trends 50-100 years in the future with any accuracy. Every attempt to do so has failed miserably in far less time than that. There are simply too many unknown variables. According to the US Census Bureau, Hispanics will acount for a little under 1/4 of the population by 2050 vs. non-hispanic whites accounting for a little over half. It would be many decades more, if ever, before hispanics reached greater than 50% under that model. It is simply not possible to predict popluation trends a century or 3/4 of a century or even a quarter of a century into the future. As an example, population growth in Hispanic countries is dropping faster than previously expected.

As of yet I have seen nothing that differs from any other wave of immigration the US has faced.

The paper says it itself:

"They are based on Census 2000 results and assumptions about future childbearing, mortality and international migration."

It has been shown time and again these sorts of assumptions are very often wrong.