North Korea has done it again.

BlueMak · Oct 15, 2006, 02:18 AM

Perhaps the West should offer him like $100m, a mansion and 12 luxury cars in some tropical paradise and then there won't be any more problems with him.
Low cost solution

Falstaff · Oct 15, 2006, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueMak

Perhaps the West should offer him like $100m, a mansion and 12 luxury cars in some tropical paradise and then there won't be any more problems with him.
Low cost solution

I think you hit it on the nose..
My son said it more profoundly..
The U.S. wont invade N. Korea because they actually have Weapons of Mass Destruction.
He thought it was funny...
but it was cause for worry...
How painfully close he is to the truth..

TheBlackCat · Oct 15, 2006, 05:01 PM

I do find it a bit strange. The two countries we seem to be targetting most have been Iraq and Iran. At that time we invaded we had questionable intelligence indicating Iraq might possibly have been trying to obtain one bit of technology that, if combined with a great many other technologies they didn't seem to be buying, might potentially be used to make nukes a long time down the road. Iran is currently threatening to use technology that after a long period of time might give them materials needed to build a nuclear weapon. At the time we were invading Iraq, if me memory serves me, N Korea was already running breeder reactors and churning out weapons-grade plutonium. By the time we were threatening Iran, N Korea apparently had enough weapons-grade plutonium for several fission weapons and missiles capable of hitting our allies in Asia and maybe even hitting us if they were lucky.

And now it seems Bush's major concern is not N Korea itself, but that it will give its technology to Iran.

It seems like these things go through several stages.

1. The country threatens to obtain technology that is obviously intended to be used for weapons but they claim is for only "civilian power production". They use this as a not-so-subtle threat to the world community, forcing other countries to give them stuff for not obtaining the technology. They milk that for all its worth until countries get fed up. Meanwhile, claiming that the other countries are stalling or preventing diplomacy they secretely go ahead and get the technology anyway and build whatever it is they wanted to build (centrifuges for weapons-grade uranium or breeder reactors for weapons-grade plutonium).

2. When other countries get fed up they wait a little while and reveal that they have the system built and then threaten to turn it on because the other countries wouldn't negotiate on their terms. They use this as a negotatiating tactic to get countries to give them more stuff.

3. When other countries get fed up again they turn the technology on, and use to get yet more concensions from other countries trying to get them to turn it off. Meanwhile they are secretely researching fission weapon technology and using any uranium or plutonium they get to start building a test device.

4. When other countries get fed up yet again they go ahead and test their single experimental device, and threaten to build more of weapons "for self defense" against "aggression" from the countries they have been extorting money from. Meanwhile, they go ahead and build the weapons anyway.

5. (theoretically) When other countries get fed up yet again they test a device that could actually be used in warfare, and use this for one final round of extortion.

As it stands, North Korea is at stage 4. Stage 5 is hypothetical because no country has reached that point yet under this scenario. Iran is still at stage 2. Iraq hadn't even reached stage 0, since the nuclear weapon technology people thought they were after they really weren't. I don't know what will happen past stage 5, probably nothing because they most likely would not be crazy enough to use such a weapon. If they really wanted to use it they would have done the entire process in secret so they could get through it as quickly and smoothly as possible. Korea and Iran have both been publicizing every step, milking it for all its worth before moving on. This is slow and ultimately counterproductive to making use of such a weapon.

And I don't think there is anything we can offer this guy personally. He has absolute power. He controls the government and the budget. He can get anything material or financial we could offer him more easily himself without any concessions because he has absolute control over his own salary and his own benefits.

BlueMak · Oct 15, 2006, 07:07 PM

King of garbage is still living in garbage.
Of course in this case it is his and his father's fault for the state N.Korea is in...

I do support a similar escalation as with the USSR. Make it so that they just can't compete, even theoreticaly. The country is already close to collapse. Promise some of his generals or even colonels (....Greece anyone?) great things if they get rid of him. Suddently we have a coup, he is dead, hello collapse of N.Korea. Of course that can and will lead to other problems. Who would want to live in N.Korea if he/she could live anywhere else, even PRC, or of course better, S.Korea or Russia.
I don't see the N.Korea remaining as it is for more than a decade if played correctly.

TheBlackCat · Oct 15, 2006, 07:29 PM

Then what is going to happen to all of that weapons-grade plutonium? You think it will just stay put during the collapse of the country? Of course not, it will go straight to the black market. So will any other nuclear weapons they may have produced.

BlueMak · Oct 15, 2006, 11:58 PM

ukraine, russia, all the soviet republics. They have managed quite well considering the number of nukes and size of territory and population. I think north korea would be easier to deal with in any such case.

SFOSOK · Oct 16, 2006, 01:39 AM

Iraq and Iran weren't backed by China.

hyperl1t3 · Oct 20, 2006, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWX

I dunno.. I have heard military action is really not even on the table as of now.

N Korea should expect to have those targets taken out though, even though it probably won't happen any time soon.

same was said about iraq. first it was diplomacy, then final warning, then the spray and pray (aka shock and awe) and now... what stage is it now??

BWX · Oct 20, 2006, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyperl1t3

same was said about iraq. first it was diplomacy, then final warning, then the spray and pray (aka shock and awe) and now... what stage is it now??

I think it's in Saddam is in jail, his brutal sons are dead, and that tyrannical regime is gone stage.

hyperl1t3 · Oct 20, 2006, 07:33 AM

oh yeah, the "clusterf*ck" stage.

BWX · Oct 21, 2006, 09:16 PM

Quote:

North Korea has done it again.

Yeah but Kim Jong mentally Ill said he was sorry.

Oct 15, 2006, 02:18 AM	#31
BlueMak HH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 13,483 Rep Power: 349 System Specs	Perhaps the West should offer him like $100m, a mansion and 12 luxury cars in some tropical paradise and then there won't be any more problems with him. Low cost solution __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*

Oct 15, 2006, 05:01 PM	#33
TheBlackCat DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Searching for the Candle in the Dark Posts: 567 Rep Power: 0	I do find it a bit strange. The two countries we seem to be targetting most have been Iraq and Iran. At that time we invaded we had questionable intelligence indicating Iraq might possibly have been trying to obtain one bit of technology that, if combined with a great many other technologies they didn't seem to be buying, might potentially be used to make nukes a long time down the road. Iran is currently threatening to use technology that after a long period of time might give them materials needed to build a nuclear weapon. At the time we were invading Iraq, if me memory serves me, N Korea was already running breeder reactors and churning out weapons-grade plutonium. By the time we were threatening Iran, N Korea apparently had enough weapons-grade plutonium for several fission weapons and missiles capable of hitting our allies in Asia and maybe even hitting us if they were lucky. And now it seems Bush's major concern is not N Korea itself, but that it will give its technology to Iran. It seems like these things go through several stages. 1. The country threatens to obtain technology that is obviously intended to be used for weapons but they claim is for only "civilian power production". They use this as a not-so-subtle threat to the world community, forcing other countries to give them stuff for not obtaining the technology. They milk that for all its worth until countries get fed up. Meanwhile, claiming that the other countries are stalling or preventing diplomacy they secretely go ahead and get the technology anyway and build whatever it is they wanted to build (centrifuges for weapons-grade uranium or breeder reactors for weapons-grade plutonium). 2. When other countries get fed up they wait a little while and reveal that they have the system built and then threaten to turn it on because the other countries wouldn't negotiate on their terms. They use this as a negotatiating tactic to get countries to give them more stuff. 3. When other countries get fed up again they turn the technology on, and use to get yet more concensions from other countries trying to get them to turn it off. Meanwhile they are secretely researching fission weapon technology and using any uranium or plutonium they get to start building a test device. 4. When other countries get fed up yet again they go ahead and test their single experimental device, and threaten to build more of weapons "for self defense" against "aggression" from the countries they have been extorting money from. Meanwhile, they go ahead and build the weapons anyway. 5. (theoretically) When other countries get fed up yet again they test a device that could actually be used in warfare, and use this for one final round of extortion. As it stands, North Korea is at stage 4. Stage 5 is hypothetical because no country has reached that point yet under this scenario. Iran is still at stage 2. Iraq hadn't even reached stage 0, since the nuclear weapon technology people thought they were after they really weren't. I don't know what will happen past stage 5, probably nothing because they most likely would not be crazy enough to use such a weapon. If they really wanted to use it they would have done the entire process in secret so they could get through it as quickly and smoothly as possible. Korea and Iran have both been publicizing every step, milking it for all its worth before moving on. This is slow and ultimately counterproductive to making use of such a weapon. And I don't think there is anything we can offer this guy personally. He has absolute power. He controls the government and the budget. He can get anything material or financial we could offer him more easily himself without any concessions because he has absolute control over his own salary and his own benefits. __________________ [color=#000000]There is always an easy solution to every human problem—neat, plausible and wrong.[/color] -H. L. Mencken Last edited by TheBlackCat; Oct 15, 2006 at 05:17 PM.

Oct 15, 2006, 07:07 PM	#34
BlueMak HH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 13,483 Rep Power: 349 System Specs	King of garbage is still living in garbage. Of course in this case it is his and his father's fault for the state N.Korea is in... I do support a similar escalation as with the USSR. Make it so that they just can't compete, even theoreticaly. The country is already close to collapse. Promise some of his generals or even colonels (....Greece anyone?) great things if they get rid of him. Suddently we have a coup, he is dead, hello collapse of N.Korea. Of course that can and will lead to other problems. Who would want to live in N.Korea if he/she could live anywhere else, even PRC, or of course better, S.Korea or Russia. I don't see the N.Korea remaining as it is for more than a decade if played correctly. __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*

Oct 15, 2006, 07:29 PM	#35
TheBlackCat DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Searching for the Candle in the Dark Posts: 567 Rep Power: 0	Then what is going to happen to all of that weapons-grade plutonium? You think it will just stay put during the collapse of the country? Of course not, it will go straight to the black market. So will any other nuclear weapons they may have produced. __________________ [color=#000000]There is always an easy solution to every human problem—neat, plausible and wrong.[/color] -H. L. Mencken

Oct 15, 2006, 11:58 PM	#36
BlueMak HH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 13,483 Rep Power: 349 System Specs	ukraine, russia, all the soviet republics. They have managed quite well considering the number of nukes and size of territory and population. I think north korea would be easier to deal with in any such case. __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*

Oct 16, 2006, 01:39 AM	#37
SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 7,033 Rep Power: 90 System Specs	Iraq and Iran weren't backed by China. __________________ Warning - Explicit Content Preceeding METAL!!

Oct 20, 2006, 07:33 AM	#40
hyperl1t3 DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 28 Rep Power: 0	oh yeah, the "clusterf*ck" stage.