Falstaff

Now North Korea has apparently tested a Plutonium weapon underground.

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...0.html?cnn=yes

http://www.foxnews.com/world/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6033457.stm

Its only a matter of time before Asia reacts very swiftly upon N. Korea.

A rogue nation has atomic power and weapons...

what will this spell for the future off the world.

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Dark Lord

ya i saw that last night. this will only end badly.

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BWX

I thought it was interesting that it was about 20 times smaller than the one that hit Hiroshima.. (5.5 kilotons/ 12.5 kilotons) which even the larger is tiny by today's standards I guess. Still.. it isn't good.

mkk

Yeah it was so small that it could easily have been a fake, but readings from science stations from other countries ought to be able to tell.

Assuming that it really was a nuclear blast, I don't think that they intend to or even have the capacity to stock up on long range nuclear missiles. But that they just need to front the technology as leverage against some of their as they see it aggressive neighbours and the west.

Whatever measures will be taken by the UN it must not lead to a ban on food or medical aid, as a suffering people is only going to benefit the government. The only thing that could make the situation really bad really fast is any kind of military strikes, but I feel fairly confident that there will only be rattlings of arms.

Falstaff

I remember stationed in Fallon NV. and seeing for the first time the remains of a nuclear test site just 22 miles outside of town. You could still get way above background with a normal gieger counter.
PROJECT SHOAL


Detonation Yield:
12.5 Kilotons – equivalent to the energy released by the detonation of 12,500 tons of TNT high explosive or about 80% of the energy of the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan
Depth:
367.4 meters (1205 feet)
Medium:
Solid granite
Purpose:
The Shoal event was part of the VELA UNIFORM program. It was intended to produce a better understanding of the seismic (earth movement) detection of underground nuclear explosions. This seismically active region was chosen due in part to its unique seismic characteristics which were unavailable at the Nevada Test Site
Location:
Churchill County, Nevada (28 miles southeast of Fallon, Nevada, at Gote Flat in the northern portion of the Sand Springs Range). Geographic coordinates: 39° 12¢ 00.7² N / 118° 22¢ 49.0² W.
Sponsors:
The Department of Defense’s Advanced Research Program Agency (ARPA) and the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC), predecessor of the Department of Energy (DOE)
Physical results remaining:
The explosion occurred in a tunnel carved into the solid granite of the Sand Springs Mountain Range. It produced a cylindrical shaped cavity, called a nuclear rubble chimney, which is approximately 166 feet in diameter and 446 feet in height. At the bottom of the cavity lies over 10,000 metric tons of porous, fractured radioactive rock slag. The hazardous waste materials produced by the nuclear bomb are similar in composition to the High-Level radioactive wastes (high-level plus transuranic waste) that are discharge from the cores of nuclear reactors. Like the core-derived waste, the waste left from the bomb includes over 200 fission product isotopes including strontium-90 and cesium-137. In addition, the nuclear blast produced radioactive hydrogen (tritium). The tritium can migrate along with any mobile water that may enter the cavity. One important difference between the waste derived from reactor cores and the debris left by the explosion is that it is likely that the explosion debris includes approximately two kilograms of “unburned” plutonium-239 (half-life 24,000 years). Fallen granite rubble from the collapsed cavity ceiling fills the slug pool and extends for over 400 feet to the top of the final ceiling. An extensive network of voids in the rubble chimney connects with a vast network of fractures that radiate out several hundred feet beyond the cavity walls. A small quantity of radioactive material reached the surface during drill-back operations. This hazardous material was subsequently buried beneath several feet of uncontaminated soil during “site restoration” activities.

The many millions of dollars that were spent on the planning, conduction and then finally on the “site restoration” did not include the cost of the perpetual groundwater monitoring program. A recent study has indicated that many of the existing groundwater monitoring locations are poorly situated.

The Shoal site lies adjacent to a couple of old Navy bombing ranges. A massive explosion around the mid 1980s destroyed the Project Shoal monument. Since then there has been no effort to replace the monument or mark the site. The plaque that described the Shoal event failed to even suggest that a potential hazard existed below the monument.

The United States Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Title 40, Sections 191.13(a) and 191.14(c) describe the Environmental Protection Agency’s requirement for isolating nuclear waste “…for 10,000 years after disposal…” and for marking the disposal site with “…the most permanent markers…” which “…indicates the dangers of the waste and their location.” [See 40 CFR 191.13(a) and 40 CFR 191.14(c)].

The Shoal Site is just one of the United State’s ten underground nuclear detonation sites that is outside the borders of the Nevada Test Site, the traditional test site in southern Nevada. The offsite areas have, to a large extent, been abandoned.

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SFOSOK

They would, however, have the ability to nuke south korea...

We have a lot of men and women stationed over there, not to mention civilians. I would have guessed Iran but it looks like North Korea is next.

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BWX

I dunno.. I have heard military action is really not even on the table as of now.

N Korea should expect to have those targets taken out though, even though it probably won't happen any time soon.

temeteus82

If you are suggesting the thing that I'm thinking you might count that China has something to say in this matter.

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Sandok

You do know that your army is quite weak nowadays since its being stretched WAY to far. Afganistan and Iraq are already taking their toll on it, wanna add Korea and China to that?

The US has to calm down

SFOSOK

I'm not saying right now. Besides you know absolutely nothing about my country's millitary and neither do I. All you know is what you read in the papers, which is pretty much nothing.

I do not think our millitary will ever be weak enough to be pushed down from #1 millitary power in the entire world.

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OmegaRED

How could N.Korea nuke South Korea without being hurt themselves from fallout? Nukes are designed for long range detonations not across the border.

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TheBlackCat

The yield of the weapon is estimated to be less than 1/15th the power of the one that was dropped on Hiroshima. That is still awful, but if the estimates are correct that they only have the capacity to make a few such weapons, the destuction would be terrible but certainly not world-threatening. We are talking about maybe destroying part of a major city if placed correctly. That is also assuming they could effectively deliver such a weapon to a target, which is highly questionable. Aircraft are impossible, they would get shot down. Their missiles are unlikely to be able to actually carry one of their weapons, nor is it certain they can be aimed with enough accuracy to hit their intended target. A ship would mean a significant fraction of the weapons' destructive power would be delivered to open water. Sneaking it in would label them terrorists and bring the hatred of the entire world down upon them. I won't make light of the event, but it is also not (in and of itself) a world-threatening weapon.

It seems to me that if they were to use such a weapon China would most definitely not back them. China is an economic powerhouse right now. They cannot afford to support a country that would launch a nuclear attack during peacetime since they would see their business partnership dry up really fast. China does not seem to be quite as strong a supporter of Korea as they once were. Their economic future depends on stability in the region. Foreign investors would not want to invest if they fear war may cost them money. And Kim may be crazy but I do not think he is stupid enough to take on the entire world without China's support.

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[color=#000000]There is always an easy solution to every human problem—neat, plausible and wrong.[/color]
-H. L. Mencken

temeteus82

N-Korea might have the technology to make nuclear detonation in a at least but making warhead that works correctly is another thing. Besides China don't like the idea that N-Korea has nukes.

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SFOSOK

Well, I wouldn't give North Korea the chance to detonate a nuclear bomb for any reason. I don't think anyone has a clue what they are capable of at this point. If forced into a corner I'm sure Nuclear would look more and more like a better solution. Either they comply completely or they are up to something.

Any nuclear action by them would make them viewed as terrorists and I'm pretty sure everyone already hates them.

Also all those possible scenarios don't really have much to do with anything blackcat. A nuclear threat is still a nuclear threat and will be dealt with as such. I'd say better to over react then under react in this type of situation.

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BlueMak

I had a nice post posted about 10 hours ago or so, but it is not here now, damn connection.

I seriously doubt that N.Korea contacted a nuclear explosion. The yield was too small and could be easily done with conventional explosives by a country as N.Korea. Plus that it was not airburst, it just doesn't compute.

BUT even if it was for real, if I were S.Korean I would be more worried about the 12000 artillery pieces aiming Seoul than a possible nuke. I believe if Seoul was not so close to the borders as it is, things would have been very different now in terms of reaction against N.Korean hostility.

As for the guy that said that US is too stretched to fight another war, I will not go into this, but S.Korea has enough power to stop N.Korea, the problem will be the civilian casualties and the damage to the economy. S.Korea will win, but at what cost?

Someone should get rid of the N.Korean leadership if change is going to happen in the near future. People are dying all over the country by hunger and I believe a huge percentage of the population has no idea how far the rest of the world has advanced in the last 50 years.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

SFOSOK

Again all information you have been reading or seeing has been fed to you. You have absolutely no clue as to US millitary's power.

I'm pretty sure China (which accounts for how much of the world's population?) is on pretty bad terms with N. Korea. Muslim countries are not half the world and since when do you speak for all muslims? Americans? Most of the World?


Edit: here is the actual population count. http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworl...population.htm

Hmm it looks like most muslim countries don't even skim the surface when it comes to population. Could it be they yell the loudest? Could it be that they have envoked some sort of fear upon you making them seem a larger body than they actually are?

and Yes Sandok, there is a big difference between muslim and Hindu.

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BlueMak

You are forgetting one little tiny bit of detail. The US troops in Afghanistan, Iraq and any other part of the world are not there to conquer or destroy said country/territory. After smashing enemy armies they remain there to hold peace and their own interests. Sure they are not doing an excellent job, but they were not supposed to, they are trained to fight and kill, not be peacekeepers and police force.
They are not the Nazi Germany of the past, or the Stalin's USSR. If things in the world get MUCH MUCH worse, and the US is forced to act like that, do you really thing that what you call poor afghani or iraqi will live for long enough to do major damage to US soldiers? If the US armed forces had the orders to open fire at all (having in mind the much much worsen situation than today), I seriously doubt it any single country in the world could hold much against the US. Just because much of the media says the US is bad and fascist, doesn't mean they are, don't forget that.

And even if we look at today's situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, how many dead US troops due to the situations there? 2000-3000? How many dead muslims (because they are not all Iraqis or Afghans as you also forget to mention)?

Most of the world will not rejoice for a nuked US city, but I am sure many will like it. They are what I call scum of the earth that do not deserve the title human.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

SFOSOK

That is what you said wasn't it? Sure sounds like your trying to broadly generalize what arabs think.

This is going nowhere fast though and I don't see the purpose in keeping it up. I'm done.

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ROBSCIX

Could just be they are flexing their muscle for the world..."look, you don't want to mess with us!" -Although if you can make a smal one you can make a big one...when they are smal aren't they called tactical nukes? meaning they can flatten a mjor city with little muss and fuss? I just think it's awful in this day and age that people are still playing around with this crap...let it go and get rid of the nukes already...everybody...

Sandok

I'm just saying what they did when 911 happened... Meh your done, I'm done. I still don't get the rest of your other post

temeteus82

Hmmm... China is giving green light to UN sanctions!

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BlueMak

1) There are not 2-3 billion muslims in the world. With your logic if they are the second largest religion and have 2-3 billion, then the first has about 3 billion (your logic), then the earth's population that is neither christian or muslim is about 1 billion? I don't think so...
If I remember correctly there are about 1 billion muslims, and 1.5 christians. Even combined they do not make 50% of the world population.

Also, read my post that you quoted again. I did say not rejoice but like, I didn't say hate the idea or anything "negative" about such an attack. I am sure most people will like it. That doesn't mean they are not low lifes as I said.

I have travelled in Europe and I live in Europe and what I see is a loud vocal minority being so negative against the USA, and the silent majority are not against the USA. I don't know how exactly things are in the Middle East though.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

TheBlackCat

Technically tactical nuclear weapons are simply those designed to be used on the battlefield. Strategic nuclear weapons are designed to be used against cities or bases or such. Generally tactical nukes are smaller than strategic ones because the goal is destroy localized enemy forces without harming your own nearby forces as opposed to leveling a city deep in enemy territory. But modern tactical nukes are thermonucleaur weapons, using fusion. Some tactical nukes far more powerful than the weapons dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which were strategic but fission-based. The one tested by N Korea was an old-fashioned fission device, one far less powerful than even the weapons dropped on Hiroshima (which was itself significantly less powerful than the one dropped on Nagasaki).

And yes, I think having nukes period is stupid. They are no longer an effective method of deterrent. The enemies we face are ones that know we cannot use nukes against them because of the collateral damage and lack of an centralized infrastructure to attack.

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[color=#000000]There is always an easy solution to every human problem—neat, plausible and wrong.[/color]
-H. L. Mencken

merry

That is actually the big news, and makes me wonder if the Chinese didn't push their puppets in NK to all this just to allow "new" China to look good in front of the world.

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and the ones who say there isn't.
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temeteus82

It seems that China don't have the "puppets" you mentioned in NK...

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BWX

That's what some people would like to believe, the facts are much different I am sure.

OmegaRED

If I were in North Korea I'd be a hell of a lot more worried about China than anything America could do.

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Gabriel_Etranil

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061014/D8KOI9DO0.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061014/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl

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"I want to believe the voice in my head, but it lies"

BlueMak

Man, I want one of those glasses! It must be like 3 pints or something.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

bstef9950

I don't put much stock into any United Nations sanctions,Look at some of there recent ones (worthless)I think the US should listen to this nut of a North Korea President and really see what's on his mind.He has visited some Western courntries and is looking actually for some US trade for his precious North Korea.Weird way of asking for help.

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