UberLord

That statement applies to the rest of the world as well...

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JavaFox

The only way you could say that, Uber, would be if you had not read UN documents.

Have you?

JavaFox

Give me a break, Raid. Nobody wants killing for killing's sake. Statements like that are worthless in the context of intelligent debate. My position has been clear -- I view this war to help humanity and promote peace in four important ways. You may disagree with that, but that's what I believe.

raid517

And I believe differently. In the "context of an intelligent debate" I wonder how smart it really is to contemplate killing thousands needlessly. From where I stand these issues don't even seem to weigh on your, or any other conservative's minds. Its almost like you lack a conscience. I'm not even saying no war. All I am saying is in the context of a full legal and moral framework and given the possibility that one month and one month only could save many unnecessary deaths, what difference to anyone would this 4 weeks make? Its just about having all your t's crossed and all your i's dotted. Considering the entire world of hurt it would avoid, with everyone in the world - and particularly many aggressive Arab countries in the world already accusing you of adventurism, this short time does not seem like so much of a compromise. Indeed if things worked well, it would be the biggest victory imaginable. The Canadian plan does not allow vagaries, it sets out real targets to be achieved and when they should be achieved by. If Saddam missed even one of these deadlines, then it would be a cause for war.

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UberLord

Yes I have.

Strangely enough, I'd say that the French, China, Germany, Russia and other anti-war nations have as well.

Your point?

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Vampyromaniac

Please clarify for me . . .

The previous resolutions say that (at the situation we are in now):

A: military action will be taken to disarm Iraq
- or -
B: military action may be taken to disarm Iraq

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bluelight

If any country in the security council lays a veto or if you do not get enough votes in favour of you way in the next vote and you still attack....then...you are doing so outside of the UN.


Simple


If it was ok for you to attack now why would you even bother to get accordance for it in the security council??


Why are they voting about it?

Think...
'

Why would the leaders pass weeks with the same issue...If...all was cleared??

No Javafaox you are wrong.


Bluelight

The_Neon_Cowboy

.....a quote frim the website "A resource for activists "

.....and for eample.... articals come from sourses like electroniciraq.net

..... most articals are written by people and posted by people with no accountabilty, Like the tabloids, they can say just about anything with no need for any foundation of truth....... to call these creditable sourses would be the same to say....that all tabliods are 100 percent factual... and that iraq is and allways has been 100% compliant to 1441... the world is flat ..... etc....

I mean come on some of the site portray that only a few people in the america are behind this even? try over 50% of the poulation that make it the magorityof such site sites.... are loaded with BullS***

gee the kinda of people that would support "tree huggers" who spike trees in logging areas to damage logging equipment and often KILL innocent loggers who are only doing thier job.

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The_Neon_Cowboy

So who cares? I sure don't if he didn't have the hellacopters he would of just did it with a warhead/missle/or other means instead. It's like saying I bought this gun in france and then went and killed some one then its the frenches fault not mine... well they sold it to me! same logic being used here

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The_Neon_Cowboy

correct...." the enemy of my enemy is my friend" so to speak

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The_Neon_Cowboy

well if the un is going to piddle paddle around and sit on their hands when thier own resloutions are being voilated the us the Us will step up and inforce them. After this war is over it will be buisness as useal ... I gree with you on two parts ....

"The world would be a much better place if everyone was friends"

we'd like the Flame Warzone to be a bit more active

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bluelight

Well i didnt expect you to bother about it either.


Everything about Usa`s role in the above article is true.Im not gonna dig up more to convince.I know its true both from Americamns European and other sources-.

I am also fifty years old and i remeber clearly the incident and its consequenses when reported in media 88.

I also remeber very clearly that the senate said no...we do not continue exporting to Iraq.I also remeber clearly that the morally highstanding r e p u b l i c a n government at the time overruled this.

I also remeber that the American government defended the use of American helicopters by saying they were un armed when sold to Saddam.Well he didnt need them armed to kill 5000 people.

I also remember when the reports came about Saddam using nervegas against Iran.Usa had no bigger problem with that either.

Ypour and others talk about the morals of Europe is utterly ridiculous.




Finally...you want more action in the flame zone....well s sugeest you go over there and stay there cause if i see you call me retarded as you did in a general statement about people opposing to war i will report your post.

Moral...yeah right..

Bluelight

bluelight

Well of course.....how brilliant.

That shows true moral.



BlueLight

The_Neon_Cowboy

Um who set oil freld a balze in desert storm? aparently you dont know so try IRAQ/saddom

yea no biggys useing iraq oil lets see russia....

Iraq informed Lukoil -- Russia's largest oil company -- that it was cancelling a 1997 contract worth a reported $3.8 billion.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe...raq/index.html

That was just one contract ....Iraq saysupport war, or couse any trouble for us and No OIL for you!!!


and who's trying to free up iraq's oil? countries like France

French propose new Iraqi inspection program, end of oil embargo
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9901/....02/index.html


yea we openly admit the we have nukes! you missed the point.... But what if we had never used them and we said we didn't have any ? your proof would be?- none...but tell me where they are? the exact locations? - LOL you can't

well there aot of things you can buy and mise use.. try mixing dot3 barke fluid and dry pool clorene some time you get a nice 1500 deg supirze.. so does that mean we can have barkes on out cars or keep pols clean? NO


you see after war there will be aot of people eating thier words ... (might be Me lol) only time will tell

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The_Neon_Cowboy

yea just like after world war 2 .... try huge and long .......... war is big business

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The_Neon_Cowboy

no it show brains...enemys to fighting each other.. - priceless

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raid517

Not much chance of that happening this time. I think something like 50,000 Special Forces specifically trained troops are waiting to take care of that one. Saddam won't have time to do anything.

Well Russia was a small consumer of Iraqi oil; they have a big enough supply of their own. They did however help the Iraqis develop these oil reserves for others. The biggest consumer of Iraqi oil over these last 12 years is, that's right, you've guessed it... the USA....

[QUOTE] Iraq informed Lukoil -- Russia's largest oil company -- that it was cancelling a 1997 contract worth a reported $3.8 billion. [/QUOTE ]

So what has that got to do with anything, or even the current crises? Contracts get confirmed and cancelled all the time. If the Russians hadn't helped produce Iraqi oil for you, you might have had to invade much sooner, as it would have been hard to live without it.

So are you saying that there isn't a plan to massively increase oil production after an invasion? To frikin right there is. You will see oil prices plummet (though not so much that it puts US domestic oil producers out of business).

Well give me $55 and I will be happy to try to spot some for you. That is how much it costs to buy some time on Russian spy satellites these days. Not very expensive at all. In any case some of the images I supplied you of were American nuclear bases. They had American nuclear bombs there. Didn't you understand what you were looking at?

[QUOTE/]well there aot of things you can buy and se use.. try mixing dot3 brake fluid and dry pool clorene some time you get a nice 1500 deg supirze.. so does that mean we can have barkes on out cars or keep pols clean? NO

Well an electron beam welder is a tad different from a crude chemical reaction. I don't see any potential for anyone to be dropping brake fluid on anyone’s head any time soon. But equipment that can be used in the manufacture of enriched uranium is quite another matter. You blame the French for selling this material, when in fact the majority came from the USA. So who is more to blame? I suspect you will say the French, because the comics and cartoons you read have told you not to like them.

Well I sure hope you do find some pretty major stuff - and that this is confirmed by an independent verification body, otherwise America's name in the world will be trash. I don't want to see that happen. It would also shut a lot of potential terrorist up, as they couldn't say it was all about oil or robbing the Arabs any more. So We wouldn't need to worry so much about more terrorism happening as a result of this war.

In any case I'm sure none of this is going to change your mind. Evidence apparently does not play a major part in your thinking. I guess when a couple of hundred thousand are dead (about the same who died in the last war) then maybe you can search for what it has so far proved so difficult to find. Its ironing that many, many times more people will die in this war (Americans and British included) than ever died in the September 11th attack. The numbers just don't add up.

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bluelight

Yeah finally i understand....exacly like hyenas do...


Well at this time when this..happened..Your friend Saddams deeds. Saddam was not...your enemy........


Yeah like Hyenas..

Bluelight

raid517

On that we agree... Although oddly you appear to enjoy the idea. It kind of highlights many of the things people have said here. America is in the middle of a economic slump. A war might help lift her out of it in the short term. Its this idea of "War for profit" that I have problems with.

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Falstaff

I remember 12 years ago, feeling terribly full of beans and intent on showing the world what my crew on my ship the USS MISSOURI BB-63, could do, with missles and technology that reaped havoc on the occupying forces in Kuwait. Saddam Hussien was already a household word at my dinner table, and I remember telling my son and my daughter that I had a job to do, get rid of Saddam, end the occupation and change the balance of power in the middle east. They looked glazed and indifferent, they asked me why the United States wanted to go clear across the world to solve a problem that was the responsibility of all the nieghboring states. "BECAUSE WE CAN", I told them and began to question my motives as well. I had no doubts about the mission, and no doubts about the outcome, but after the trip there, the long hours a general quarters and the drone cams of destruction in Kuwait and Iraq, I often wondered if the whole darn thing was justified. Today I pulled out my Medals and looked at them again. I found the magnificent gold one from Saudi Arabia, and I recalled how scared I really was. Yeah, we won, but we didn't finish the job. And now, with the same degree of justification, we approach the brink of another terrible war. I served proudly, I obeyed without the question my orders and did my duty, and now my children are old enough to go to war, I am even more scared now than I have ever been.
Is the war in IRAQ justified? I just don't know anymore. All you have to see are charred bodies and smell burning flesh and fuel to really polarize your thinking, War is absolutely the last thing I think the United States should do, before we give up. I don't know about anyone else, but unless you see the terrible outcomes you can't appreciate the lasting effect of annihalation on a grand scale.
The United States has fantastic power, and we can and will use it whether the american people or the citizens of the world like it or not.
Justification for war? God forgive us if this turns into one of the biggest conflicts of this century..

raid517

My fear is that there will be a short war that will appear relatively successful.. at least initially. But really I'm afraid that the war will never end. Half the Muslim world has threatened to declare war on the US (their governments haven't as many are largely funded by US money) but their leaders and religious clerics have - and that is the most worrisome prospect of all. They could be placated. But the West would have to be very careful in its approach - do everything above board, make sure they have the full legal and moral support of the UN and put the question beyond doubt. This seems to be the wise course of action. However no one seems to be pursuing the wise course of action. War is always a possible resolution, but it shouldn't be the first resolution, not when other possibilities still exist.

On a side note, it looks like elements of the Canadian plan are winning through (I just heard the news). Now a list of specific questions will be put to the Iraqis and a specific amount of time given for them to answer them. How much time and how much of the Canadian plan will be implemented remains to be seen.

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JavaFox

Oh really? Perhaps you missed the pesky 7th Chapter of the UN Charter, which authorizes "complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations" as well as military action by sea, air, and land. Or maybe you missed it when it said ""action required to carry out the decisions of the Security Council […] shall be taken by all the Members of the United Nations or by some of them, as the Security Council may determine."

"Aha! The Security Council hasn't determined that yet!" You must being saying. Then perhaps you missed you missed it when Resolution 678 authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions. In case you missed that, Resolution 1441 re-affirms it.

Facts are stubborn things.

raid517

Well no matter what or whoever perceives the facts to be, the 'fact' remains that most people (including about half the UK government who look set to resign without full UN support) feel that without a new and final UN resolution this war would lack legitimacy. That also is an uncomfortable fact. It seems to me those not willing to acknowledge this reality, are pretty much walking through a mine filed and are doing so without an apparent care in the world. They appear to be looking forward to a war so much that every other consideration has become meaningless to them. People want to see for certain that the legality, morality and justification for war are placed beyond question, because they fear if it is not then terrorism in this world could increase a thousand fold over its current levels. No one is quite sure how bombing people on the basis of some slim legal/technical justification is likely to lessen the risk of terrorism in the world. They hear too often tales of even senior military and secret service personnel voicing their doubts about the Americans claims of links with Saddam Hussein's regime, and Al Quada, Even serving members of the CIA have voiced their concerns over the Bush Administrations attempt to subvert their national security mission and turn them into a political organisation serving only the foreign policy aims of the Bush Administration http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...25/wirq225.xml and http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4525268,00.html (BTW for JF benefit, the Telegraph is slightly right wing of Beelzebub) so it is when we hear all of these open doubts and concerns being raised that we begin to worry. It is clear that the Bush administration is engaged in a determined effort to distort the intelligence picture and the community to meet their political ends.

Despite all this, despite the deep misgivings that many people have, they would still be pretty much willing to go with this if it could be proved to them than everything was being done to ensure that any war was conducted with the full legal, ethical and moral authority of the UN. They worry when they hear that America is refusing even to physically allow Iraq the amount of time it would take to disarm. they worry because they can't see thow this is connected to international terror, they worry because there has been so much information debunking the theory that Iraq posses weapons of mass destruction and that she intends to use them on America, they worry all the signals they have so far have done very little to convince them that the case made for war is indeed valid.
Perhaps a different case could have been made that would have been more convincing. But this case regrettably has not been made and the evidence that has been forwarded so far has made people deeply suspicious about the motives for war. So while you might wish to quote this or that legal technicality or other, unless you can directly address peoples concerns no amount of glib references to your supposed interest in UN proceedure will convince them. (Not that anyone is convinced by this apparently false interest either). So far the jury has been out on this, what they are asking for is one final effort for the US to convince them before they make a final decision. Under the circumstances and everything that has passed to date, this seems extremely fair and reasonable to me.

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Smoothdrive

Do some research on the every day live of the Iraqi's..that's all the justification you need...think about Saddam ignoring the UN for 12 years and you have your political motive as well.

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raid517

Well I could have gone with that. As I'm sure many other people could have. But it is all the misinformation and decidedly unconvincing evidence that has been put forward to date that has made people suspicious of the motives for any war. People who try to disguise their motives for war usually have something to hide. Don't go after me for saying this, as this is simply the general perception. If that is the case you wished to make for war, it has been very poorly presented and has been buried under all the flack and propaganda. People are just to sceptical and too well informed these days to fall for the political spin in the same way they have in the past. In any case, it looks like some people are getting a bit nervous about rushing to war without the full backing of the UN - and elements of the Canadian plan are creeping in. Now a list of demands will be put to the Iraqi government and they must prove they have complied with them. Furthermore the March 17th deadline looks like it could be extended (though how much closer it would go towards giving Iraq the 4 weeks it would need to actually physically disarm remains to be seen). All that is being asked for is a credible compromise. If such a compromise can be reached, many people might be willing to put aside their doubts and support a war against Iraq if Iraq does not finally and conclusively disarm. I think those who would be willing to go to war without even trying to address peoples concerns in this regard, are rash in the extreme.

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The_Neon_Cowboy

i AGREE THATS AMONG MY WORRYS.... US VS. IRAQ OTHERS ENTERING IN THE CONFLICT WOULD BECOME HORRIFIC... AND BEGAT A NTOER WORLD WAR ... NOT GOOD...

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The_Neon_Cowboy

IF THE FAIL T ATTACK FOR ANY REASON ON THE 17TH THEY WILL WAIT TILL NEXT MOUNTH .... WHY? BECOUSE WE HAVE REALLY GOOD NIGHT VISION AND THAT WILL BE WHEN THERE IS LITTLE TO NO LIGHT FROM THE MOON. A HUGE ADVANAGE FOR US .....

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