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| Political and Religious Debate Political, economic, and religious debate. |
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Mar 8, 2003, 07:22 AM
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#1 |
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Old Codger
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To Hell with the French Foreign minister!
I am so sick of the dialogue the French representative is attempting to perpetuate. It is clearly obvious that we will manage to do what we need to do in IRAQ without the French. A country that consistently loses wars, money and international prestige every single time that the government attempts to form some kind of real political posture. It is in the nature of the French government to selfishly cling to the outstanding loans to the IRAQI government, doubtless, the wouldn't see a Euro after the regime in IRAQ is replaced by a democratic political machine.
No, I think the French are hiding something, whatever it is, the implications go further than the Exocet missles they sold the Hussien regime, and the Etentard aircraft that launched those missles at the USS STARK, so many years ago. The French are dirty, really dirty, and they have their fingers, legs and every other vital portion of their political anatomy inserted in the Hussien regime. What the heck are the French afraid of? I believe that they are not afraid of being hypocrates, because they do it so well, perhaps this one time, and only time, they don't want to be rescued from a war that surely will make their efforts as meaningful as cow flatulence. The French are desperately trying to redeem themselves in the interntational community. The French government better play another card in this poker game. It is a documented fact that the French people are ambivelent about this matter. What ever happens, they will continue to pay terrible prices for diesel, food and imported goods. They could really give a damn who wins. I say "Hail to the chief", President Bush has the power, the integrity, and the will to persecute Saddam Hussien and the Al Guida until the whole desperate and sticky matter is done.....so who really needs the French... and to hell with the French Foriegn minister!!
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"Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."
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Mar 8, 2003, 10:49 PM
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#2 |
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Unbiased.
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I'm curious - what exactly do you think the French are hoping for, in asking for peace?
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[img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator) |
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Mar 8, 2003, 11:54 PM
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E Pluribus Unum
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Mar 9, 2003, 12:24 AM
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A Legend in Underwear
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Now if America was the peace loving country that it proclaims to be then why does it want war so damn much?
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Gentoo Linux - Developer (baselayout) Read my blog "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts |
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Mar 9, 2003, 01:27 AM
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DriverHeaven Senior Member
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Well really the American right and the French political establishment have a lot in common. The French believe that Europe should spend much more on defence. So do many Americans. The French believe that Europeans have been too dependant on the US in many other areas. So do many Americans. The French are in favour of doing everything they can to break this dependence and to make Europe more self reliant. I have heard many Americans expressing this desire too. The only problem is that the US see Europe as a counterbalance to the power and influence of the USA in the world. Americans don't like this idea at all. So how do you work that one out? As soon as a European country begins to act in an dependant way and suggests to everyone that they should do everything the US has told them they should do, the US objects tells them they are wrong, and demonises them for their efforts. Mmm.. Having said that... there does seem to be a pattern here...
What an odd world we all live in. Q Last edited by raid517; Mar 9, 2003 at 01:37 AM. |
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Mar 9, 2003, 01:49 AM
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#6 |
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Unbiased.
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Weeeeellll... I was more curious about what fallang_jeff thought about the intentions of France with regards to asking for Peace... I have my own personal opinions, which include France wanting peace instead of war like civilized folks...
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[img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator) |
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Mar 9, 2003, 02:55 AM
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#7 |
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DriverHeaven Senior Member
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No sadly I'm not even convinced by that. The French people may want peace, of that I am certain. But the French government are Gaullists (right wing by American standards). They see Europe as a new empire, with France playing the leading role. Its sad, but unfortunately I think its true. I don't totally disagree with them. I would like to see a stronger Europe too. I think this world needs counterbalances to stop any single country becoming too powerful. I think a much more proactive approach towards defence and world affairs could be useful too. The only thing I don't like is the idea of having the French at the head of this. But that will never happen, that's not how the EU works...
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Mar 9, 2003, 02:57 AM
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#8 |
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DriverHeaven Senior Member
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Don't get me wrong, I think America is just as bad as France in all this. I certainly am not taking any sides.
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Mar 9, 2003, 03:00 AM
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Thread Starter
#9
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Old Codger
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Civilized peoples might find peace the best alternative to war under most circumstances, as long as trade and currency change hands and borders remain intact, everyone should be happy, within the scope of the "narrow view" But with history of the Hussien Regime with regard to human rights, his eagerness to increase his military power, and his attempts to invade and occupy his nieghbors in the past, civilized countries that originally invested massive support of for his weapons programs are obligated to find a dramatic resolution to the problem. Eliminating weapons of mass destruction in IRAQ. I don't think inspections and appeasement (in any form) is effective. Saddam Hussien is a meglomaniac and does not obey the rules of the civilized world. I know France has had a long and cordial relationship with IRAQ, we destroyed lots of French made planes all over IRAQ and stumbled into french and russian advisers as U.S. armoured divisions sliced through southern IRAQ. But that isn't the point really, the thrust of my argument is this: Dominique de Villepin is postering for the benefit of preserving France's financial interests, and France's relationship with the Hussien regime.
My brother, a Major in the U.S. Army stationed in Europe and a member of the military intelligence community see the French people as indifferent with regard to IRAQ. The French people want lower gas prices, less government involved in their lives, and a shorter work week, not much different than the average working american. Now that is an argument for peace, as long as no one gets hurt right? But these times dictate a more proactive role in world politics. Replacement of the current government in IRAQ is tenable, destruction of WMD is tenable, as long as Saddam Hussien will remove himself from power and destroy his military threats to his neighbors. A war with IRAQ is very "winable". The U.S. military intelligence community has slice up IRAQ into little tiny pieces on a flat piece of vellum, identified targets from the air, and with ground penetrating radar technology, isolated hidden weapons all over IRAQ, when the moment of truth arrives, arguments for peace are moot anyway. The French foreign minister may be holding all his cards very close to his chest when it comes official statements, but the last people fleeing IRAQ before we make any serious moves will be all the foreign advisers, the French among them as well. I read the French daily news for what it is worth, here is an excerpt if I may: France's foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, indicated that the new U.S.-backed proposal would not reverse France's staunch resistance to military action. "We will not accept a resolution that will lead to war," de Villepin said during the debate. He proposed a meeting of heads of state and government regarding Iraq, an idea rejected by Powell. The council debate revealed the suspicion and anger that have been steadily growing, not only between the United States and its longtime allies France and Germany, but also among European powers and between the United States and the U.N. weapons inspectors. De Villepin criticized what he called the "other objectives" of a U.S. invasion, besides eliminating Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, including ousting Hussein and "recasting the political landscape of the Middle East." If that is the intent, the French foreign minister said, "we run the risk of exacerbating tensions in a region already marked by great instability." Spanish Foreign Minister Ana Palacio, a U.S. ally on Iraq, took sarcastic aim at France's proposal for continued inspections that could last months more before the council took decisive action. "This, to paraphrase a French thinker, is merely the strategy of impotence," Palacio said. Now those are powerful words from Spain's government, not everyone is in league with the French, they are in my opinion the most vocal.. whew........ |
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Mar 9, 2003, 03:21 AM
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#10 |
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DriverHeaven Senior Member
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Well for I just hope you find these hidden WMD... And BTW the only ground penetrating radar planes that were allowed in Iraq were supplied by the UN and the Russians. The USA has been forbidden from flying such planes in Iraq. So the intelligence you speak of comes from the UN - and they say they have uncovered nothing. This is despite visiting all the sites in the American's spy photographs - and 27 others not listed by the US. If you do find WMD I will be pleased, because then the terrorists can say you are simply exploiting Muslims and holly Muslim lands for their natural resources. I would like to see an independent verification process after the war that would confirm the existence of these WMD (particularly the supposed nuclear capacity the Iraqis have) just to put the matter beyond any question. Then maybe we can maybe get back to some normal living. If though you don't find anything particularly significant, then a big part of the security of the world will be screwed and America's reputation will be in tatters. This is a huge gamble. For everyone's sake I hope it pays off.
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Mar 9, 2003, 03:30 AM
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Thread Starter
#11
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Old Codger
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Exploitation?
Man I wish I could tell you everything, but we can and routinely use our own technology to ascertain threats within IRAQ, nuff said about that. But I don't think the U.S. intends to exploint resources in IRAQ, many muslim nations stand to benefit from the dramatic changes that will most certainly be made soon in IRAQ, I think no one wants to admit they were part of the American military effort until after it is all over, just like 12 years ago, I think that many reluctant powers still fear the relationship between terrorists and IRAQ. And I am not talking about Al Quida either,
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"Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."
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Mar 9, 2003, 03:35 AM
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#12 | |
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Banned
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Quote:
That is a coop out. Ever hear shit or get off the pot? |
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Mar 9, 2003, 03:39 AM
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#13 | |
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Banned
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Mar 9, 2003, 03:39 AM
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Thread Starter
#14
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Old Codger
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ToshiroOC
you want to do us all a favor, get rid of Byteme, he is a thread corrupter of the first order
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"Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."
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Mar 9, 2003, 03:59 AM
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#15 |
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HardwareHeaven Lover
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"Well for I just hope you find these hidden WMD... And BTW the only ground penetrating radar planes that were allowed in Iraq were supplied by the UN and the Russians. The USA has been forbidden from flying such planes in Iraq. So the intelligence you speak of comes from the UN - and they say they have uncovered nothing. This is despite visiting all the sites in the American's spy photographs - and 27 others not listed by the US. If you do find WMD I will be pleased, because then the terrorists can say you are simply exploiting Muslims and holly Muslim lands for their natural resources. I would like to see an independent verification process after the war that would confirm the existence of these WMD (particularly the supposed nuclear capacity the Iraqis have) just to put the matter beyond any question"
There are these new things out, I think they are called "SATTELITES" I believe they can pretty much go wherever they are sent and look at whomever or whatever they are told to look at. Now most of the information they gather is kept in confidence (even CNN can't get it) This whole WMD thing kind of parrallels another atrocity that was not discovered until after a war had started... Maybe you have heard of the holocaust ? You know that little thing where another Tyrannical leader had MILLIONS of people slaughtered just because they were Jews and he wanted it done? Gee no one knew about that going on until the camps were discovered during a... yep you guessed it a WAR... I'd have to rank Saddam right up there with ole Adolph on the twisted meter and I believe that the little bastard is willing to kill millions of his own people to keep his a *s * s in power Anyone willing to believe in Saddam's rhetoric is as naieve as they were before WWII ... On another point, does anyone here not realize that the leaders of the government in France are friends of Saddam and France has trade relations with Iraq???. As one of the few larger countries who do have these trade policies they have a pretty damn good deal as they have the Iraqis over the proverbial barrel ... Now what happens to this sweetheart deal if Saddam is ousted, and a new government is brought in that is free to deal with all of the countries in the world??? Ya think France will get the same deal? Ya think they will have the same leverage??? Lets also talk about those idiotic "NOW" people who claim that ousting the current government will not benefit the women of Iraq who are now routinely beaten, raped, and murdered... What the hell are they thinking??? Even the Iraqi women themselves have denounced these self serving imbeciles... It's all about money, on all sides even Saddam's although he is about money, Power, ans Arrogance ... |
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Mar 9, 2003, 04:04 AM
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#16 | |
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Banned
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Re: ToshiroOC
Quote:
Dude, I've QUOTED what someone else said and directly replied. What the fokk is your malfunction? Why don't you shrink your head and use it as a paperweight? It's not much use for writing intelligent posts with, that's for sure. |
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Mar 9, 2003, 04:10 AM
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#17 |
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DriverHeaven Senior Member
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Well I was willing to make allowances for ByteMe, I always got the impression that he came here on his 'big yellow computer' as it were, and so I always thought it best just to let him be. He obviously has some 'special requirements' as usually the FW is about as much as he can manage. Sometimes he bravely pops his head up out of the mud and says something. Usually it makes people groan.
I dunno.. You could almost feel sorry for the guy. I wonder what age he is. (His mental age might be another factor). But not to worry, what would the forum be like without ByteMe? He is like the pet dog you have that always tries to have sex with you're guests legs, but he's just so dumb and helpless you can't help but forgive him.  Still telling moderators that he would like to see various animals shit in their mouths is taking things a little far.  So maybe ToshiroOC might want to speak to him, who knows. I'm not sure what good it would do, but what the hey.Q Last edited by raid517; Mar 9, 2003 at 05:59 AM. |
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Mar 9, 2003, 05:05 AM
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#18 |
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DriverHeaven Senior Member
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@Dmac43 are you saying that it is seriously possible to condem the building of this kind of nuclear facility? http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...deid_ik-20.htm or http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...udeid_dg-2.htm
It does look a bit like there may be some kind of underground tunnels for secretly transpoting stuff, but who knows what the real purpose might be? I guess you must object to this kind of thing hu? Oh well... Q |
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Mar 9, 2003, 05:15 AM
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#19 |
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HardwareHeaven Lover
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Ummm... What's yer point ????
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Mar 9, 2003, 05:45 AM
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Please answer the voices in my head
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Sure we have, the problem is that the US government always shit OUTSIDE the pot. |
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Mar 9, 2003, 05:53 AM
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#21 | |
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DriverHeaven Senior Member
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Q |
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Mar 9, 2003, 06:03 AM
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#22 |
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HardwareHeaven Lover
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What in the fuck are you talking about????
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Mar 9, 2003, 06:13 AM
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#23 | |
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DriverHeaven Senior Member
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Mar 9, 2003, 06:16 AM
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#24 |
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Unbiased.
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Byteme, you will not post personal insults of that type again outside of the flame warzone. If you wish to say things like that, stay in the FW.
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[img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator) |
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Mar 9, 2003, 07:06 AM
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#25 |
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HardwareHeaven Lover
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"Well I just wondered if you thought such Mid Eastern nuclear bases were a potetial threat? It seems a straightforward question. If you have a problem with them then I just wondered what your position was? Should inspectors be allowed in to examine them, or should they just be bombed out of existance? I don't see why you need to curse over that. It seems like a straighforwar and reasonable enough question."
Why not ask "Do you think Mid Eastern nuclear bases are a threat" ? My confusion stems from the fact that I made no comment on anything nuclear... My opinion on "any" nuclear base is that they are indeed dangerous... That said, If the base is run by a sane government, and well protected it is less dangerous... Chernobyl is a perfect example of a nuclear plant gone wrong... Now should inspectors be alowed to inspect nuclear bases, YES absolutely... Should inspectors expect that what they will be viewing is the real deal (not looking at an empty hangar where things used to be before Saddam's magic caravan moved them) again YES Should the world wait an eternity for Sadam to get stronger and go on the offensive, NO Should we sit idly by and let him use the weopons that we know he has (Even Hans Blix has admitted this) NO Should the world give the intelligence agencies of the US, BRITAN, and Israel (possibly the best in the world) the benefit of the doubt over a known war criminal (see rape, murder, pilliage, arson of Kuwait) YES Are they NO Why ? Who knows, various reasons... Naivete' probably... All I really know is that in the 12 years since he was ordered to disarm, it took the coalition forces (Mostly US, and British) being on station as well as the threat of war for Iraq to make their latest feeble attempt at feigning disarmament... Interestingly, he's building new Samoud missles at the same rate that he's destroying them.... Ain't the old shell game wonderful... Also with regard to your statement about tunnels... Why would one build a secret maze of tunnels if he didn't intend to use them ? What use might he have for them ? Storing papers? ancient subway system? how about a method of getting from one hiding spot to another so as not to be killed (See Vietnam war) This discussion could go on and on, It is quite possibly time to agree to disagree as there will never be a positive outcome (see tic tac toe). |
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Mar 9, 2003, 07:11 AM
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#26 |
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HardwareHeaven Lover
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"Please use civil language, Dmac"
There is nothing uncivil about the language that I've used. Some might call it offensive, and if the moderators feel that is the case and in the bylaws it is written that such language cannot be used then I will not use it... I refuse however to bow down to the graces of the politically correct, that is half the problem with society as a whole today, people are un willing and in some cases not allowed to say what they feel for fear of offending someone... It is time for people to lighten up... the whole sensitivity thing has gotten way out of hand... |
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Mar 9, 2003, 09:11 AM
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#27 |
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Banned
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To hell with the French government............... Well it looks like the real arguments have entered this place.... The valid ones.... So far i havent even seen anything similar about Saddam.... but..to hell with the French government... Yeah right.....Thats how it goes... Bluelight |
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Mar 9, 2003, 11:58 AM
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#28 |
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HardwareHeaven Extreme Member
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Mar 9, 2003, 12:45 PM
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#29 |
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Banned
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Well you keep telling us what you are dont you?
Bluelight |
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Mar 9, 2003, 02:07 PM
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#30 |
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DriverHeaven Senior Member
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@ Dmac43 Well it’s nice to know you think this base should be inspected and if found operational destroyed. The base is actually Al Udeid Air Base, Qatar. This as I'm sure you are aware is an American nuclear base under construction. (Well maybe you won’t be aware of it because officially it doesn't exist). It is really quite unbelievable what you can find on the internet today. Lol is nothing secret? Is nothing sacred? In any case that web site that picture is on has literally thousands of pictures from commercial spy satellites from around the world. Don't forget many Russian spy satellites have been converted to civilian/commercial use, so pretty much if you want to look at anything, there are virtually no restrictions anymore. (As previously demonstrated. In any case if you are interested in intelligence concerning Iraq here is some intelligence in plenty: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/wo...q/facility.htm
The vast majority of these sites have now been visited by UN inspectors in this latest round of inspections and the theories that they were producing WMD have been discounted, or the facilities have been destroyed. This would continue to be the case throughout the rest of the inspection process, if the process had been allowed to continue. But alas this is not the case. Instead it has been decided that a great many people must die.  I guess the point I'm making is that you asked 'what about salt elite images', as though such images were somehow hard to obtain. They are not. Nowadays even the average internet user can access information of a scope and quality only previously available to the military and security services. What is clear is that a picture doesn't always tell the full story. This has been made abundantly clear by UN inspector’s visits, where all of the sites listed by the Americans as potential nuclear sites have been visited - and it has been proven conclusively that they contain no active, or indeed partially viable nuclear weapons programs. The evidence they gave was satellite imagery. And of course as you demonstrated, when it comes to satellite imagery, it is often extremely hard to know what you are looking at. This is why you need people on the ground to look more closely at these facilities and this is why it is vital that the inspectors be allowed to do their jobs. Of course no doubt you will say, that's why we need to send 200,000 troops in there now, but that's like prosecuting people without any evidence for what you are doing. The inspectors aren't silly. The IAEA has access to at least a dozen different intelligence agencies around the world and has information on the movement of nuclear materials, technology and expertise on an extensive and detailed scale and is therefore in a unique position to assess any potential risk. Even if is insufficient for you, you would have to ask, if this were a court of law, would the 'evidence' presented to you so far convince you of a need for war? You have already noted how evidence you are presented with can be interpreted in many different ways. Are a few crude images sufficiently compelling for you for you to make the case for war? Or perhaps the testimony of experts (as in the IAEA) who have actually visited these bases might be more convincing to you? In a court such standards of evidence that you quote would certainly not be admissible - and would certainly be considered a flimsy basis on which to condemn anyone. But oh well, never mind. I am beginning to feel like this is a game of tic tac toe. I don't think since I came here that anything I or anyone else here has said has changed one single perception of anything. So what is the point? Conservatives say that evidence is a non essential requirement when killing lots of people, everyone else say that without real evidence (that really can be confirmed) going to war and killing thousands is potential madness. But oh well some people seem to take death and killing people very lightly indeed. In fact sometimes I wonder from some of the responses I see here if many people don't think of it as more of a sport. Any sober reflection of what this involves seems to have pretty much been tossed out the window - along with people's sanity and reason. I will always find it interesting how easy it is for politicians to work a crowed up into a frenzy, usually based on very little - and are able to leave them feeling that whatever they tell them to think is even remotely close to reality. What a strange thing it is that people are often just too lazy to even try to think for themselves. Very few here have expressed any original ideas on this topic at all, only seeming to manage to repeat the rhetoric spewed out by their governments. There have been one or two notable exceptions to this, both from the left and from the right. But when it comes to just repeating pure unabated rhetoric, it really does just become a totally pointless pursuit. Q |
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