Usa spy`s on security councils members

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 9, 2003, 06:48 PM

Inside the UN

One Two Three Four

Bluelight

raid517 · Mar 9, 2003, 07:04 PM

Hmm... So the US will even try to spy on its closest friends? How thouroughly nice of them... American spies at GCHQ... It just shows in this world you can't trust anyone who claims they are your friend. Politicians are despicable.

Q

raid517 · Mar 9, 2003, 08:12 PM

What is interesting here however is we pretty much have a UK secret service in open revolt over the Iraq issue. Nothing like this in history has ever happened before. They clearly believe that the case the Americans have made for war is not much more than pure tripe. Indeed since this is GCHQ were talking about, who routinely listen to practically every phone call and radio broadcast made in the world and who have access to multiple spy satellites of their own as well as from agents in the field, I'm sure they don't just 'think' the case that's been made is 'nonsense' they feel they 'know' its nonsense. Are they right? Well they are certainly in a better position to judge than any of us.

Q

FuNsTeR · Mar 9, 2003, 08:19 PM

no response from our American colleagues on theese despicable acts of US espionage , suprise suprise

even Javafox wouldn't dare to wriggle out on that

just to add a little spice on the UK side of things Blair is up shyte creek already members of his party are resigning and more will follow his foreign affairs man Jack Straw was made to look like a prize chump on a live interveiw on Itv news24 ... basically saying America says Jump the UK saying how high?? and reckons if they don't get what they want then they will ignore the un and do as they please .... no suprises their either

George Bush and America by 2012 will be considered the new Nazis Germany ... steeling other nations natural resources .... time for people to unite world wide against American facism

raid517 · Mar 9, 2003, 08:36 PM

Well I wouldn't go quite that far... All I would say is that some Americans might have to take a harder look at the direction in which their country is going and ask how wise it really is to go there? America used to consider itself the "first among equals." That was a very nobe and often very helpful ideal. (Mutully helpful in allowing America to pursue her interests). But it now seems to have taken a much more selfish, much more self interested approach to world affairs. Cetain members of this forum might like to deny this, but this is now the common perception of America among the majoity of people in the world. This never used to be the case. Something very fundamental has changed about America and it is making people afraid. People genuinely wonder where this new direction America is taking in the world might lead them.

Q

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 9, 2003, 09:16 PM

My understanding is the USA spy's on everyone.

FuNsTeR · Mar 9, 2003, 09:30 PM

probably was a tad OTT but it is a very worrying time ahead .... i would hate to be conscripted to fight a war for a country i do not beleive in ie Britian .... i see myself as Scottish and European ... i know it is narrow thinking i should say im a man of the world ... but at this very moment i do not feel it

The_Neon_Cowboy · Mar 10, 2003, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ByteMe
My understanding is the USA spy's on everyone.

thats my thought too.....

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 10, 2003, 11:31 AM

Yes and you hvae a right to do so even within the UN suppose....

Bluelight

BWX · Mar 10, 2003, 12:26 PM

But Hans Blix can leave out info in his report about cluster bombs and drones that Iraq has. Both of which can carry bio-weapons, I would spy on them too.

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 10, 2003, 01:01 PM

What exacly are you tallking about?

Usa have not been spying on Iraq inside of the UN.They have been spying on members of the security council by using bugging etc etc...

Obviously as i can see most of the patriots here thinks this is how one should perform international diplomacy within the UN.

Bluelight

raid517 · Mar 10, 2003, 01:15 PM

Lol even Hans Blix is now being slated as an enemy of America! (How many more will be added to the list I wonder?) Dr Blix reported on everything he was instructed to. If he was asked to find out about 'cluster bombs' then that is his job to find out about them. He doesn't just make up a report as he goes along. Besides this it is a breach of international law to spy on US members, although international law seems to be less and less important to the US right now. Anyway this was about the US spying on some of its closest friends. Also it is clear from these reports how little the security services in the UK and US believe in the case that has been made by the Bush administration for war. These are the issues I find most disturbing, not if the UN is withholding things from the US which is clearly a ridiculous proposition. This is not why the US was spying; it was because they wanted to know what positions various countries would adopt in advance. This would mean they would know where to exert pressure first to ensure that things would go their way. This might seem reasonable to some, but it is totally against all international standards of accepted conduct and certainly in no way excuses the practice of spying on friends too.

It’s all a pretty filthy business if you ask me. Why all this effort? And to what end? Why is America so desperately keen on this mall Mid Eastern country?

Q

BWX · Mar 10, 2003, 01:22 PM

I'm just surprized they (US) got caught spying. If it is true

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 10, 2003, 02:01 PM

Ok..I understand.Well what is true or not will be revealed sooner or later.I dont think anyone wil make a big affair out of it although it is a bad thing that diplomacy shpuld be carried out this way.It is probably done by most major powers ....

Bluelight

merry · Mar 10, 2003, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BWX232
I'm just surprized they (US) got caught spying. If it is true

Nixon was.

Smoothdrive · Mar 10, 2003, 02:46 PM

What's the big deal anyway ? Spying on security council members..so what ? have they got something to hide ? Which country does not spy on another ?

Why act as if this would be an outrage or something

Just heard that "al something" from the Atomic Agency said Iraq need to act and quick if they want to prevent war...strange..this guy was all in favour of more time, more inspectors..finally he got the picture ??

BWX · Mar 10, 2003, 02:55 PM

Everyone spies on everyone, so now it is a big deal if it is the US doing the spying? Give us a break.

Smoothdrive · Mar 10, 2003, 03:33 PM

OK take 5

raid517 · Mar 10, 2003, 03:37 PM

Well for me the spying is less of an issue. Be assured we spy on you guys too.

What I thought was significant in those reports was the attitude of the intelligence community to this war. That is more telling than anything in this debate. And Smoothdrive the UN has never been against War, it has just requested that it be given the time and resources to do its job. Previously it wasn't given the resources, so it couldn't enforce the resolutions and it got the blame for this, now it has the resources but isn't being given the time and its still getting the blame for it. Really though I'm beginning to wish some of you guys not directly involved in this would moderate your views a little and not be so keen to stand by and watch as those from other countries die. As time is getting closer I find it genuinely upsetting that potentially thousands of my fellow country men may soon die. The bottom line is, if it came down to it there is no question of where my loyalties lie. I don't mind shouting the toss with my American friends because they have similar concerns, but increasingly I do feel those countries who are shouting about swinging this way and that way would contribute a little more so that their voices would actually account for something. No wonder Americans get frustrated sometimes by countries who want to have a say in world affairs but when it comes to the crunch are willing to contribute virtually nothing. Is the Dutch contribution significant? Perhaps it is I don't know. All I do know is that many thousands of my country men are waiting in the desert right now and that many of them may soon die. This has real meaning to me and gives me a very heavy heart. I may not agree with all of the motives behind this war, but I am very proud of our troops and for as long as it takes until this is over, politics aside, they will have my total support.

In any case I still think spying on your friends is a dirty business, even if our governments do all do it.

Q

UberLord · Mar 10, 2003, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BWX232
Everyone spies on everyone, so now it is a big deal if it is the US doing the spying? Give us a break.

Everyone knows that, but everyone knows that spies shouldn't be found out either.

Spy was found - "invasion of personal privacy" and all that. Bad mojo

BWX · Mar 10, 2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Well for me the spying is less of an issue. Be assured we spy on you guys too. What I thought was significant in those reports was the attitude of the intelligence community to this war. That is more telling than anything in this debate. And Smoothdrive the UN has never been against War, it has just requested that it be given the time and resources to do its job. Previously it wasn't given the resources, so it couldn't enforce the resolutions and it got the blame for this, now it has the resources but isn't being given the time and its still getting the blame for it. Really though I'm beginning to wish some of you guys not directly involved in this would moderate your views a little and not be so keen to stand by and watch as those from other countries die. As time is getting closer I find it genuinely upsetting that potentially thousands of my fellow country men may soon die. The bottom line is, if it came down to it there is no question of where my loyalties lie. I don't mind shouting the toss with my American friends because they have similar concerns, but increasingly I do feel those countries who are shouting about swinging this way and that way would contribute a little more so that their voices would actually account for something. No wonder Americans get frustrated sometimes by countries who want to have a say in world affairs but when it comes to the crunch are willing to contribute virtually nothing. Is the Dutch contribution significant? Perhaps it is I don't know. All I do know is that many thousands of my country men are waiting in the desert right now and that many of them may soon die. This has real meaning to me and gives me a very heavy heart. I may not agree with all of the motives behind this war, but I am very proud of our troops and for as long as it takes until this is over, politics aside, they will have my total support.

In any case I still think spying on your friends is a dirty business, even if our governments do all do it.

Q

Well hopefully not many on our side will get killed, I think if this war happens, that is the main objective, to get the job done with as few casualties as possible. In the last gulf was, I think most of the (American, not Iraqi) casualties were accidents and friendly fire. Hopefully with the more modern technology, many of those kinds of deaths can be avoided.
I do realize this is an entirely different kind of opperation though. All we can do is hope for the best.

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 10, 2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BWX232
Everyone spies on everyone, so now it is a big deal if it is the US doing the spying? Give us a break.

Well i didnt exacly mean it was ok for US to spy on other nation inside the UN.

In fact i see it as a sign of depravasion ans a total lack of moral.

Bluelight

BWX · Mar 10, 2003, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight

In fact i see it as a sign of depravasion ans a total lack of moral.

Bluelight

Well then every nation is guilty of the same I suppose.

UberLord · Mar 10, 2003, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BWX232
Well then every nation is guilty of the same I suppose.

You're right.
However, the US got caught - there's the difference.

Besides, if spying is A. OK, you have no objection if I send some boys round to wiretap your phone, sniff the data across your internet line and check your bank account?

Smoothdrive · Mar 10, 2003, 06:17 PM

I wouldn't have a clue if we spy on other countries or not..most likely our secret service relies more on US/UK input than actually doing the field work but i wouldn't know..

As for the soldiers..we can probably all agree that we regret every single casualty there may be..however the longer we wait the more casualties will fall in Iraq amongst civilians by the hand of Saddam.

Dutch input ? very humble since we only have a relative small military..we have troops stationed in Turkey manning the patriots there already, we have f16 pilots flying in the area, we have a few ships in the gulf..we do our bit to help.

raid517 · Mar 10, 2003, 06:27 PM

Well we need someone to man the phones I suppose... I think though when the shooting war starts its important for out troops sake that we all are on the same side. We will deal with whatever ensuing mess there may be afterwards.

Q

JavaFox · Mar 10, 2003, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
I think though when the shooting war starts its important for out troops sake that we all are on the same side.

Wow, that is an amazing statement that I didn't expect from you, Raid, and I whole-heartedly agree. Regardless of what you think about the motives of the highers ups, not supporting your men in the field is despicable. Oliver North remarked that when he returned from Vietnam, some anti-war hippie threw blood on him.

Shameful.

raid517 · Mar 10, 2003, 06:38 PM

Well our troops aren't politicians. It is them that will suffer the concequences of any decisions the politicians make. It is the poloticians I mistrust. But our troops deserve our respect.

Q

JavaFox · Mar 10, 2003, 06:41 PM

At least we see eye to eye on that.

BWX · Mar 10, 2003, 06:42 PM

well hallelujah

Mar 9, 2003, 06:48 PM	#1
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Usa spy`s on security councils members Inside the UN One Two Three Four Bluelight

Mar 9, 2003, 08:12 PM	#3
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	What is interesting here however is we pretty much have a UK secret service in open revolt over the Iraq issue. Nothing like this in history has ever happened before. They clearly believe that the case the Americans have made for war is not much more than pure tripe. Indeed since this is GCHQ were talking about, who routinely listen to practically every phone call and radio broadcast made in the world and who have access to multiple spy satellites of their own as well as from agents in the field, I'm sure they don't just 'think' the case that's been made is 'nonsense' they feel they 'know' its nonsense. Are they right? Well they are certainly in a better position to judge than any of us. Q Last edited by raid517; Mar 9, 2003 at 08:38 PM.

Mar 9, 2003, 08:19 PM	#4
FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Darkest Ayrshire Posts: 1,305 Rep Power: 88 System Specs	no response from our American colleagues on theese despicable acts of US espionage , suprise suprise even Javafox wouldn't dare to wriggle out on that just to add a little spice on the UK side of things Blair is up shyte creek already members of his party are resigning and more will follow his foreign affairs man Jack Straw was made to look like a prize chump on a live interveiw on Itv news24 ... basically saying America says Jump the UK saying how high?? and reckons if they don't get what they want then they will ignore the un and do as they please .... no suprises their either George Bush and America by 2012 will be considered the new Nazis Germany ... steeling other nations natural resources .... time for people to unite world wide against American facism __________________ "They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Mar 9, 2003, 09:30 PM	#7
FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Darkest Ayrshire Posts: 1,305 Rep Power: 88 System Specs	probably was a tad OTT but it is a very worrying time ahead .... i would hate to be conscripted to fight a war for a country i do not beleive in ie Britian .... i see myself as Scottish and European ... i know it is narrow thinking i should say im a man of the world ... but at this very moment i do not feel it __________________ "They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows" Last edited by FuNsTeR; Mar 9, 2003 at 09:48 PM.

Mar 10, 2003, 02:46 PM	#16
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	What's the big deal anyway ? Spying on security council members..so what ? have they got something to hide ? Which country does not spy on another ? Why act as if this would be an outrage or something Just heard that "al something" from the Atomic Agency said Iraq need to act and quick if they want to prevent war...strange..this guy was all in favour of more time, more inspectors..finally he got the picture ?? __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Mar 9, 2003, 07:04 PM	#2
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Hmm... So the US will even try to spy on its closest friends? How thouroughly nice of them... American spies at GCHQ... It just shows in this world you can't trust anyone who claims they are your friend. Politicians are despicable. Q

Mar 9, 2003, 08:36 PM	#5
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well I wouldn't go quite that far... All I would say is that some Americans might have to take a harder look at the direction in which their country is going and ask how wise it really is to go there? America used to consider itself the "first among equals." That was a very nobe and often very helpful ideal. (Mutully helpful in allowing America to pursue her interests). But it now seems to have taken a much more selfish, much more self interested approach to world affairs. Cetain members of this forum might like to deny this, but this is now the common perception of America among the majoity of people in the world. This never used to be the case. Something very fundamental has changed about America and it is making people afraid. People genuinely wonder where this new direction America is taking in the world might lead them. Q

Mar 9, 2003, 09:16 PM	#6
~~ByteMe~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 761 Rep Power: 0	My understanding is the USA spy's on everyone.

Mar 10, 2003, 11:31 AM	Thread Starter #9
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Yes and you hvae a right to do so even within the UN suppose.... Bluelight

Mar 10, 2003, 12:26 PM	#10
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	But Hans Blix can leave out info in his report about cluster bombs and drones that Iraq has. Both of which can carry bio-weapons, I would spy on them too.

Mar 10, 2003, 01:01 PM	Thread Starter #11
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	What exacly are you tallking about? Usa have not been spying on Iraq inside of the UN.They have been spying on members of the security council by using bugging etc etc... Obviously as i can see most of the patriots here thinks this is how one should perform international diplomacy within the UN. Bluelight

Mar 10, 2003, 01:15 PM	#12
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Lol even Hans Blix is now being slated as an enemy of America! (How many more will be added to the list I wonder?) Dr Blix reported on everything he was instructed to. If he was asked to find out about 'cluster bombs' then that is his job to find out about them. He doesn't just make up a report as he goes along. Besides this it is a breach of international law to spy on US members, although international law seems to be less and less important to the US right now. Anyway this was about the US spying on some of its closest friends. Also it is clear from these reports how little the security services in the UK and US believe in the case that has been made by the Bush administration for war. These are the issues I find most disturbing, not if the UN is withholding things from the US which is clearly a ridiculous proposition. This is not why the US was spying; it was because they wanted to know what positions various countries would adopt in advance. This would mean they would know where to exert pressure first to ensure that things would go their way. This might seem reasonable to some, but it is totally against all international standards of accepted conduct and certainly in no way excuses the practice of spying on friends too. It’s all a pretty filthy business if you ask me. Why all this effort? And to what end? Why is America so desperately keen on this mall Mid Eastern country? Q

Mar 10, 2003, 01:22 PM	#13
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	I'm just surprized they (US) got caught spying. If it is true

Mar 10, 2003, 02:01 PM	Thread Starter #14
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Ok..I understand.Well what is true or not will be revealed sooner or later.I dont think anyone wil make a big affair out of it although it is a bad thing that diplomacy shpuld be carried out this way.It is probably done by most major powers .... Bluelight

Mar 10, 2003, 02:55 PM	#17
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	Everyone spies on everyone, so now it is a big deal if it is the US doing the spying? Give us a break.

Mar 10, 2003, 03:33 PM	#18
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	OK take 5 __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Mar 10, 2003, 03:37 PM	#19
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well for me the spying is less of an issue. Be assured we spy on you guys too. What I thought was significant in those reports was the attitude of the intelligence community to this war. That is more telling than anything in this debate. And Smoothdrive the UN has never been against War, it has just requested that it be given the time and resources to do its job. Previously it wasn't given the resources, so it couldn't enforce the resolutions and it got the blame for this, now it has the resources but isn't being given the time and its still getting the blame for it. Really though I'm beginning to wish some of you guys not directly involved in this would moderate your views a little and not be so keen to stand by and watch as those from other countries die. As time is getting closer I find it genuinely upsetting that potentially thousands of my fellow country men may soon die. The bottom line is, if it came down to it there is no question of where my loyalties lie. I don't mind shouting the toss with my American friends because they have similar concerns, but increasingly I do feel those countries who are shouting about swinging this way and that way would contribute a little more so that their voices would actually account for something. No wonder Americans get frustrated sometimes by countries who want to have a say in world affairs but when it comes to the crunch are willing to contribute virtually nothing. Is the Dutch contribution significant? Perhaps it is I don't know. All I do know is that many thousands of my country men are waiting in the desert right now and that many of them may soon die. This has real meaning to me and gives me a very heavy heart. I may not agree with all of the motives behind this war, but I am very proud of our troops and for as long as it takes until this is over, politics aside, they will have my total support. In any case I still think spying on your friends is a dirty business, even if our governments do all do it. Q

Mar 10, 2003, 06:17 PM	#25
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	I wouldn't have a clue if we spy on other countries or not..most likely our secret service relies more on US/UK input than actually doing the field work but i wouldn't know.. As for the soldiers..we can probably all agree that we regret every single casualty there may be..however the longer we wait the more casualties will fall in Iraq amongst civilians by the hand of Saddam. Dutch input ? very humble since we only have a relative small military..we have troops stationed in Turkey manning the patriots there already, we have f16 pilots flying in the area, we have a few ships in the gulf..we do our bit to help. __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Mar 10, 2003, 06:27 PM	#26
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well we need someone to man the phones I suppose... I think though when the shooting war starts its important for out troops sake that we all are on the same side. We will deal with whatever ensuing mess there may be afterwards. Q

Mar 10, 2003, 06:38 PM	#28
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well our troops aren't politicians. It is them that will suffer the concequences of any decisions the politicians make. It is the poloticians I mistrust. But our troops deserve our respect. Q

Mar 10, 2003, 06:41 PM	#29
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	At least we see eye to eye on that.

Mar 10, 2003, 06:42 PM	#30
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	well hallelujah