The_Neon_Cowboy

It was the usual creepy military parade through downtown Baghdad. Some of Saddam’s fedayeen (“men of sacrifice”) were dressed in dazzling white uniforms—”the color of a shroud, because we expect to die,” explained a 24-year-old fedayeen leader. More jarring were the fedayeen garbed in the familiar tan camouflage of the United States Army. Saddam has ordered thousands of uniforms identical, down to the last detail, to those worn by U.S. and British troopers. The plan: to have Saddam’s men, posing as Western invaders, slaughter Iraqi citizens while the cameras roll for Al-Jazeera and the credulous Arab press.

source.....
http://www.msnbc.com/news/881770.asp

what are your thought on this? what do you thing saddom up to here?

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JavaFox

Having his troops wear the uniforms of another nation could strip them of POW elligibility under the Geneva Convention. It is further possible that these troops, no longer considered proper soliders, could be considered enemy combtants -- or terrorists

I'm sure this will be dismissed as a crazed American media stunt (even though I guarantee 90% of the people at MSNBC are against the war), and I'm sure that if Saddam does actually get to have the staged slaughters televised, it will be accepted by anti-war proponents without question or complaint.

bluelight

Yeah...staging slaughter performed by Iraqìs dressed in US uniforms and then selling it to Al Jazirta is bullshit.

The same bullshit as we heard last war when US media claimed that Iraq´i soldiers went in to hospitals in Kuwait and killed babies and nuirses.

All of that was bullshit and intentional lies.

Defending Bagada in Bagdad where there are civilians.....are NOT news.This has been known as something that will be a fact all the time and this is where civilians will die.

.Someone here...Neoncowboy earlier said that Saddam had ordered several thousand US uniforms just a week ago....well explain to me how ypu produce several thousand uniforms in two weeks in a country that is under sanctions...

Propaganda...



Al Jazira.......Is a commercial tv station...playing exactly the same game as CNN or any other commercial station that plays according to market rules.


You did market rules so......you dont really have a problem with them


BlueLight

Smoothdrive

And we have a winner..the first one to view upon this material..if it is true & televised..as anti-US proof.

I find the story hard to believe..yet i would expect a thing like that from Saddam..he kills the people anyway so why not dress the killers up like Americans..

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The_Neon_Cowboy

you like Iraq so much why don't you move there? - my point made

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bluelight

Another brilliant point....got more of those?






Bluelight

Smoothdrive

Euhm..Blue, even tough i also find this story hard to believe..so far i've seen you backing up facts with links from newssites and calling that proof..this story is posted with a link to a newssite..so where is this proof different from your proof ?

Or...is neither your links nor this link to be concidered prrof ?

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raid517

Mmm.. well this looks lke a nice little right wing huddle. Considering the souce and tenor of the information, both local and remote, I wouldn't take it too serously. Having said that selling saddam uniforms might not be such a bad thing. I know that certain modern military uniforms contain low frequency transponders that can be programmed with various identifying codes (just like those in some library books) the purpose of which is to allow armies to distinguish friend from foe. (How do I know this? Well I couldn't possibly say. ) This allows certain troops to walk accross specially constructed mine fields without comming to harm. If the army uniforms have been bought, hopefully they will have been bought from the CIA (providing the CIA decideds to play ball in this) and the transponders will have been reporgramed to make spotting ememy troops much easier.

Killing people is a lot more technical than it used to be.

Q

JavaFox

At least right-wing JavaFox is less predictable than that.

raid517

Lol Java... You certainly are an altogether different prospect...

Frodo301

Unless things have changed a great deal I would be surprised to find that only the more elite units in the US military have such uniforms, such as the Special Forces, Rangers, Seals, and the special combat Air Force units (I don't remeber what they were called). The grunts and the support units won't have the luxury .
On a more on topic note, back in the first Gulf War I remeber many of the captured EPOWS that were taken to our med facilities were in a variety of uniforms. It was not uncommon to see NATO issue uniforms, German uniforms, British, French and American uniforms on some but not all of the troops. Some uniforms were older styles, but they were still from the above countries. Heck, some only had civilian clothes they had brought to the battlefield from home! That being said those uniforms had to be purchased or acquired somewhere and I see it very easy for them to store away uniforms for future use. Also understand that just because there are sanctions in place no goods covered by the sanctions come into Iraq. I'm sure there are plenty of countries that find loopholes in the system to smuggle items covered by the sanctions into Iraq.

raid517

Well the uniforms I speak of are a British invention. But I trust the technology has been shared... The bottom line is I guess you wouldn't tell the grunts if they had it or not, otherwise you would give the game away.

But perhaps that is besides the point. Really anyone can buy uniforms. I can go to my local army navy store any buy a uniform from any army in the world. It isn't so hard. Iraq has certain restrictions placed on it due to sections. No doubt they will buy uniforms from whatever source they can find them. Some of this more hysterical stuff is easily recognisable for what it is. In the last was were has the same junk about Kuwaiti babies being dragged from incubators and having their brains dashed out on the floor. Of course it proved to be completely untrue. It is at times like this when war is very near that you have to look at the BS that comes out through very squinted eyes. Unfortunately some people do not quite posses that skill, while others are only to happy to eat it up.

Well anyway, I guess that's who its aimed at, so it really is of no consequence.

Its usually only a few years after a war that the real truth comes out. Hopefully by then we will all be a little clearer about what this whole thing was supposed to be about and why everyone was prepared to risk so much to make it happen.

Q

Falstaff

I think the issue of elite iraq units wearing american military uniforms is nothing new, I recall them wearing U.S. Navy uniforms in San Diego, when we trained their young men to be sailors. My brother company were all IRAQI's and they cleaned and pressed their uniforms just like us. I can still remember when we trained their midshipmen and took them on tours of our ships in San Diego and North Island, some of those men still serve now. I always admired their discipline, when it rained like hell, we watched them drilling constantly on the grinder (parade field). We admired them then, and were not allowed to talk to them, but we understood that they were the core elements of elite units we supplied training and arms to in IRAQ, besides we all wanted to get Khomeni, does anyone remember Khomeni?
When it was in our interests to support Hussien in the terrible war with IRAN, we gave them lots of really solid training, and the methods we used were not unlike the quality of training that the SPETZNATZ or Navy Seal Teams were given. They performed extremely well, and were not among the fallen after the Gulf War, they still exist, still serve, still await the oppurtunity to fulfill their orders to their literal end...They are scary and we know about them. So much for that....but any member of Saddams military forces that might confront our forces wearing our uniforms most certainly would be cannon fodder. I think this is postering by the IRAQI military...It just doesn't make sense to arm and dress your troops like your enemy with the fantastic technology available...We can monitor all their troop movements, regardless of where they are...from space, from the air, from the sea and in country...and we are in country right now...
Saddam may play the same hand he did 12 years ago...numbers, sheer numbers, like the soviets, through attrition, wear the enemy down. I damn near worked in IRAN, till they poisened the land with chemical weapons and almost completely disrupted trade with mines and booby traps....Also a phenomena emerged then too, IRAQI units began to operate independently of their commanders, making tremendous progress in battle, fighting as they were trained, by us, I suppose....I don't doubt the tenacity of the IRAQI soldier, sailor or pilot.
They faced us, time and time again, against the most terrible odds, against the certian knowlege of their own deaths and the faliure of their missions they faced us, and we mowed them down, disabled and destroyed their armour, I watched their sailors fire automatic weapons at a harpoon missle at their minelayer, they wouldn't flee, didn't jump ship, they fought as best they could.
With guns at their backs and the fear of retribution these men faced us until they ran out of ammunition, out of food, out of water, and after terrible losses, then and only then, when the american and coalition forces carved up their positions, did they retreat or give up....We saw lots of tape of IRAQI's prostrate on the hot sand, begging for relief, surrendering. But what we didn't see were the republican guard, unless they were annihalated, they rarely surrendered. With caches of ammunition and weapons all over IRAQ I think they could have sustained the war. Saddam as well Bush senior didn't want to prolong the war any further, to keep the casuality count down...
Saddam miscalculated then, but I think he has gotten alot smarter since...He rose to power as an assasin and sacrificed his advisers and family to attain and keep the power he has now. I think now, in poker terms he has a new deck of cards, and we can't say he is that predictable, not anymore, this struggle will be alot tougher, and great deal more messy than the last one....
And the press will have a field day...if there is anything that will polarize thinking against our illegal war in IRAQ, are the terible losses we will inflict on the IRAQI people, that is another card in Saddam's deck and he will play it.....

bluelight

The links i have provided concerned Usa`s involvement in Iraq during the whole of the eighties.

Although some of you here probably were 5 years old at the time...i was not and i know that what is in those links are true.

I ususally make an effort not to post "leftwing links" when speaking with "rightwing people".

Because it is pointless giving a leftwing limk to a right wing person.


In this case the whole thing falls on its absurdity.

Saddam fixing up several thousand Us uniforms in a couple of weeks...in a country that is u nder sanctions......

Yeah right....



Bluey

bluelight

Two comments....i do not doubt Saddam will do some very dirty things....but this one...was to good to be true.


Taking hostage....is likely to happen when he sees that the thing will start rolling.

The_Neon_Cowboy

By the way bluelight US intell. says iraq is has been moving explosives to oil fields gee I wonder why.... becouse he's going to light them up!!!!

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Falstaff

There have always been explosives in IRAQI oilfields, at least since 1990...

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The_Neon_Cowboy

really? all i have haerd is what they were doing recently.... moveing exploseives to the oil fields.... I feel sorry for special forces... their missions look like they will fail (the oil fields on fire) or worse they secure it and suddom remote detonates some hidden explosives ..... yikes

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Falstaff

No one wants the oil fields to fall into the hands of the Kurds, or anyone else that might take power away from Hussien internally, etc...My experience with those folks is limited to what I saw onboard the USS KITTYHAWK during the liberation of Afghanistan, they are efficient, well trained, quiet , and professional...Nothing you see on television or the movies comes remotely close to the real thing...They were in country befroe the Gulf War, and they are in country now...

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The_Neon_Cowboy

very intersting... Forgot they useally go in before we strike ... haven't been awake that long... but there is aways a danger that sudom would scud attack them if he knows we have got them secured....

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Falstaff

The only thing that is remotely close to the truth is that they enter and leave without being seen, the spend countless hours confirming intelligence, gathering intelligence and engaging the enemy on such a low level that they often remain anonymous, and the complex coordination with peripheral sources of support and control insure that their activities usually remain un noticed as well...and they wonder why we spy on other U.N. members as well as the bad guys.

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bluelight

Im supposed to be surprised?


Bluelight

raid517

No we don't wonder at all why you spy on UN members; given the paranoia of the current administration it is hardly surprising. But this misses the point I think. It doesn't matter if we all know it happens. It doesn't make it any more right. And in the case of the UN the US is breaking international law - something obviously many other secret service organisations are not happy with. (Hence the leak). If it is ok to disobey all international laws and conventions then where does that leave the US or the rule of law? I increasingly get the feeling that none of these things matter to the US any more and that the US feels that as the biggest power in the world with no natural remaining enemies, it can do pretty much do as it pleases. I think there was even more evidence of this when Donald Rumsfield said he would be willing to abandon even his 'coalition of the willing' and not only go it alone without the UN but go it alone without his closest ally the UK. Having announced this before even the vote at the UN had taken place, it is clear that there is no interest whatsoever in forming any real or credible coalition, or in whatever solutions the deliberations of the Security Council might produce. Iraq will simply not be allowed to disarm peacefully. This option will not be presented to them.

I do find all these things very disturbing. Even when people might be willing to afford you their support, your government goes about doing things and saying things that make offering and sustaining that support very difficult to do. It’s almost like the American government no longer cares about the views and fears of the rest of the world at all. This is why many feel they are living under the shadow of a dictatorship, since only a small minority of people in this world voted for this government, yet it feel able to act completely without recourse or consultation with anyone.

I trust you will forgive that this is why so many people are frustrated and afraid of where the US might be heading right now. It isn't so much anti-Americanism, other than fear and a feeling of being unable to be in control of their own destinies any more. If this makes you feel proud to be American then I'm afraid it won't do anything to enhance the reputation of America in the world. You can try to say that this is not the way it is, but many people are still increasingly viewing America that way. I don't know... I'm not sure if its something that would make me feel proud. But then I'm not in that position. However, I am sure other people's peceptions will be different.

Q

Smoothdrive

A dose of anti-America is healthy, can't trust the US on it's word..that's not new..problem is that at the moment many people focus more on anti-America than on people like Saddam .

Suddenly everyone who is up against the US is supported by people who only wish to be against the US without realising who they are supporting by their actions.

Not blaming anyone here of this behaviour..but seeing this behaviour more and more in Holland at least.

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raid517

Well look I already explained I didn't think this was about anti-Americanism. I said I thought it was about people not feeling they have a voice any more and this is what is concerning them. They didn't vote for Bush, yet Bush seems to feel free to act in the interests of a relatively small section of world opinion.

What people want is to see him take the process at the UN seriously - and so far every indication has been that he has not done this. Since the UN is the only way the world can get the US to listen to their concerns, the fact that the US is not doing this makes them feel disenfranchised. It is things like this that result in everything we have seen, where suspicions accusations, fears and misgivings abound. If you want to tell people they are wrong to feel this, then at least a much better effort should be made to reassure them. Paradoxically for some Americans, the best way to achieve this is through the UN.

I don't think anyone is forgetting about Iraq. If the world could be convinced that the US was serious about the process of international co-operation, this opposition would virtually vanished overnight. However America has made virtually no effort to do this. Even if I could be convinced that the US was serious about engaging with the international community and a second UN resolution was to fail, I would personally be willing to admit that diplomacy had failed and possibly go without. But so far I have not been convinced that the US is serious about this. Quite the opposite in fact.

Recent announcements have done nothing to ease my concerns.

Q

Smoothdrive

My comment was more in General than directed to you Raid..gotta remember to stipulate that sometimes to avoid collisions..


I was more referring to the hype of Suddenly supporting the PLO and being all against Israel and now all of those anti-war protesters who seem to forget that they should be protesting against Saddam if they care about the Iraqi's instead of protesting against the US.

Don't get me wrong, if someone has a well-based opinion which favours the PLO that is fine..but the hype of being in favour of organisations like the PLO just because it is fashionable worries me.

What's next ? supporting the ETA ? The IRA ? all fine with with me if you truly know and care about their struggles..but having mass support for these organisations has consequences..supporting them to be fashionable is a dangerous thing..

This entire "fight the power" thing worries me..every housewife (as a figure of speech) suddenly seems to need to have a anti-US opinion based on nothing but commercial outlets pushing for hype and spectacle.

The UN is only refferred to as a fact to proof that the US is bad in most of the popular Dutch media..that media restricts itself to the simple "US & UK want to go to war and UN does not want to, US & UK will go to war without UN if needed" no talk whatsoever about the resolutions, what they stand for, who signed them, what Saddam does etc. etc. etc. If you want to learn more you have to do some research yourselve or read/watch quality media which is considered boring by the masses.

These same masses will believe it when the popular media present the pictures suggested at the start of this thread as being American/English aggresion against civilians...Who can blame Saddam for trying if he is aware of these movements in Europe..and he is..he also saw the anti-war protesters who did not have one single anti-Saddam message.

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raid517

Well general or not I think it very arrogant to put people down like that. What makes you so well informed and everyone else so stupid? Personally I am surprised as to how well informed everyone is in this issue. No one truly supports the PLO, the protests you saw weren't marches in favour of the PLO, they were marches in favour of a negotiated peaceful settlement and in favour of the UN. Even then it isn't fair to call them anti-war marches, as by far the majority of them would gladly have supported a war with a second UN resolution. However for that support to be forthcoming - and before a second UN resolution could be achieved, the US would have had to have shown that it was very serious about the process occurring in the UN. So far very few people have been convinced of this. When you have Mr Bush saying 'Come what may at the UN we are going to war', Rumsfield saying ‘Hey screw the ‘coalition of the willing’, it doesn't really matter a jot to us.’ and the American contingent within the UN saying 'Look even if Saddam does offer and begin a conclusive program of disarmament, were not going to give him the time to disarm and we are going to invade anyway, ‘none of this helps answer anyone's concerns. It makes it look that the US is simply desperate to invade Iraq at all costs - and this is what I and many others don't understand. Why is Iraq so vitally important to US interests? All the indications are that security assessments that Iraq is linked with international terror have proved bogus. Indeed many of our security services have more or less said this and are in a state of open rebellion over it. Mr Blair even said in an interview the other night with several of these ‘housewives’ you object to that ‘Of course no known links exist with international terrorism.’ He fumbled this by borrowing Bush's crystal ball and saying "But this doesn't mean there might not be in the future". Well sadly for most people 'might' is just not good enough. They know you can't prosecute people for what they might do in the future, no matter how bad you think they might be.

So far from this being a simple pro-Saddam, pro-PLO, pro-peace at all costs movement, it is a movement that concerns itself with the rule of international law, with their fears over ordinary people not having any influence over their own democracies, since their views are overshadowed by a relatively small unrepresentative section of world opinion. People are also occupied with their legitimate concern for the role of the UN in conflict resolution and with their understanding that at some point we are going to have to sit down with these people and listen to their grievances rather than just seek to wage perpetual war on them. And to me, if so many people are capable of understanding such advanced and complex issues, I would say that they were in fact extremely well informed. The way you paint people it is almost like you think your views are superior and ordinary people are simply unable to think for themselves. This is simply not true.

Your are correct, the issues are more complex, and they are certainly more complex than even you admit them to be. I think ordinary people deserve more credit than you are willing to give them. In this regard I think it is your view that looks over simplified and not theirs.

Q

The_Neon_Cowboy

looks real bad guys ... suddom has given out 7 million machine guns to civillians.... looks like we will be seeing alot of civillian combatants .... I sure that will go right alog with the us uniforms ect........ Saddoms plays durty.... I sure Iraq news will be all over it if we attack .. I can see the healines now... civillians gun down by us troops instead of the Real ...civillians armed with machineguns killed by us troops... joy this is going to suck

EDIT: also there is word of suicide bomber traing camps started to attack troop inplacements. From one of the trianing boomers "we are ready for martordom" Gee wizzz .... must be realy partriots bcouse saddom wont be cutting no checks when this is over .....

Aslo update ... date mabe move to the 21st not certain .... new proposal by tony blair... I doubt suddom wil comply but if he doesnt that will have shown the canidan plan/ more inspection would'nt of worked anyway.... if he does it will be a big shocker

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bluelight

Seven.........million.......Say that once more slowly.....and think about it again.......


Bluelight

The_Neon_Cowboy

What?

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