U.S. Bombing Watch: When was the last time the U.S. Bombed Iraq?

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 14, 2003, 04:55 PM

Well whatever you claim Americans think those figures talk plain english and.....they clearly show that the support Bush had.......is NOT....the same as it was.Initially hois support was much much higher.....so i figure he lost something on the way.........and it will continue....

Until he is gone....

Bluelight

Bluelight

JavaFox · Mar 14, 2003, 05:04 PM

You know, I am getting sick and tired of repugnant statements such as "I don't think it is possible for some Republicans to indulge in any form of independant thinking. Language like this purely demonstrates that they are only too happy to be told what they should and should not think. This is very, very sad.." If the fact that someone could have a different interpretation of the facts from you is incomprehensible, you need to take off your blinders and acquaint yourself with the real world.

If you don't think you can change minds, why debate at all?

Frodo301 · Mar 14, 2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
Well whatever you claim Americans think those figures talk plain english and.....they clearly show that the support Bush had.......is NOT....the same as it was.Initially hois support was much much higher.....so i figure he lost something on the way.........and it will continue....

Until he is gone....

Bluelight

Bluelight

Amazing that I just saw a poll over at Foxnews.com that said 70% of Americans support military action (if you are indeed speaking of the US public). Funny how Foxnews, a site that tends to be somewhat conservative could have numbers this high if indeed the support was not there. Do you think that it could be the way the more liberal minded press finds theirs by asking questions at the beginning of the interview such as are you a democrat or republican? How does asking if I am a D or R have anything to do with current events? Oh, better provide a link or someone will accuse me of making it up. I am politically middle of the road with conservative views on the military and the use of force.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81023,00.html

JavaFox · Mar 14, 2003, 07:39 PM

Well, Frodo, FoxNews tends to attract more conservatives inasmuch as it actually does attempt to be politically even-handed, unlike other news outlets. That said, even the notoriously liberal (and liberal in this context is significant because in America it is liberals that are largely against the war) New York Times conducted a poll in which the majority of Americans back war and think the UN is mishandling the situation.

raid517 · Mar 14, 2003, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
You know, I am getting sick and tired of repugnant statements such as "I don't think it is possible for some Republicans to indulge in any form of independant thinking.

Mmm... Well I could crack a joke about how many republicans it would take to change a light bulb. Sadly however it would probably take too long to count that high...

Q

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 14, 2003, 09:10 PM

Yeah i do think it is of outmost importnace who it is that publishes the statistics but...if you see statistics in a major newspaper or...if you see them o an "independent" (if that is still possible" tv channel they are likely to be reasonable.

Javas figures seem reasonable to me.The initial support for Bush in this case was extremely high to begin with.The figures (if they are correct) are probably what would be normal and would reflect that many democrats that before supported Bush...now has started acting as what they are politically etc etc...

Bluelight

raid517 · Mar 14, 2003, 09:15 PM

Well pretty much nobody will want to be seen as having been on the loosing side after a war. So you will see a lot of people particularly politicians hoping for re-election starting to change sides right about now. So yes a surge in support at this point in time isn't surprising.

Q

Frodo301 · Mar 14, 2003, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
Well, Frodo, FoxNews tends to attract more conservatives inasmuch as it actually does attempt to be politically even-handed, unlike other news outlets. That said, even the notoriously liberal (and liberal in this context is significant because in America it is liberals that are largely against the war) New York Times conducted a poll in which the majority of Americans back war and think the UN is mishandling the situation.

Yeah, I know about the other polls and the findings. I semi-regularly get called from a company that does polls for the Washington Post and CBS news (I think). I'm not sure how they got my number, or how I got selected to participate in the polls. Never the less the very first question they ask is are you a democrat or republican regardless of what the actual poll is about. Seems an easy way to filter the information to suit the press's political agenda.

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 15, 2003, 07:53 AM

Still i do think that the main media in Usa actually do treat polls like thisa reasonably....When push comes to shove....it is never in the interest of free media to direct things like this.

Sure it can happen ocasionally but i dont think it is a rule...

If Bush was said to have something like 90 percent support last year.....well i have no big reason to question that in the light of what had happened..

Anyone leadin a country with things like this going on would have similar figures.Now it sems things are slowly going back to "normal"....which is good...I do not believe ´that 100 percent support for leaders ius ultimatley good for democracy and development.

Disagreeing is the motor of development in a away.

Bluey

Falstaff · Mar 15, 2003, 08:24 AM

I support action in IRAQ whether it is military or or more domestic and internal in nature, because I believe that the world finds Hussein repugnant, regardless of any "moral dynamic" behind the ouster of a criminal or meglomaniac, (take your pick).
I don't want a long protracted war, nor a quick but ineffective solution. I feel that Saddam will yield eventually, whether his country dissolves his power or we fragment it with a rain of steel and fire. But without some sort of "throttle" that slows the engine of change, there would be a good chance of repeating the mistakes of the Gulf War..When we finally see the live footage of the forthcoming conflict, perhaps those that took a stand for their beliefs might be swayed by military successes. Americans will complain, disagree, and even claim a moral stand over war, but eventually, they will become familiar with the circumstances, will see their sons and daughters on television and somehow the American media will thread the whole terrible mess together as a "just war" against Hussein.
I know that sounds pessimistic, but our attention span is rather short, and the media here will keep it interesting and perhaps steer our opinion effectively, again..I fought in the Gulf War, and had to endure insults from other americans that saw the missles we fired miss targets and destroy civilian targets.
Now, I enjoy reverence from my family, my friends and the respect of others that I served with.
I refuse to say that this war is "just" because I am a christian, but I know that my president has made a compelling argument for some sort of military action, and as a U.S. citizen, and a loyal american, I know that ultimately I may have to make a sacrifice to fulfill an obligation that I accepted over 20 years ago, when I said I would defend my country against all enemies both foriegn and domestic. I have a sense of duty to my country, and I hope that somehow, a final repreive, an ephiphony will occur and this whole military solution will be side stepped by brilliant diplomacy, but the odds are so against that happening, it merely strengthens my resolve...
I respect the fact that people all over the world want to find another solution besides war, find another
alternative to violence, maybe the social compact of the United Nations carries some responsibility for all its members to find a better choice instead of war. Maybe all this sabre rattling is just more diplomatic "brinksmanship"...Saddam will see the overwhelming power of the United States and Britian, and silently and very carefully, fade into the limitless horizen of the desert, never to return....but I don't think so....I quietly contemplate peace, and ask some divine interference, and ask for protection of the sons and daughters of IRAQI people, who surely must fear this as much as I do for my own children, who are old enough to die for their country....
When will this diplomatic melodrama end?, and we can continue on with the business of living...because now, people on both sides of this terrible conflict can only contemplate dying for their country as well...The world is getting so much smaller now, everything is in real time, ...I hope this does not become another "REALITY SHOW" for americans.. but I know somewhere in front of a television screens all over the world, people will watch the news long enough to see a few bombs dropped, IRAQI soldiers obliterated by our weapons and perhaps a few weak remarks by our "play by play" media and then we will all go to sleep soundly, knowing that it is happening thousands of miles away....

raid517 · Mar 15, 2003, 09:24 AM

Well I don't know Jeff, whether you support the reasons behind this war or not, or as in my case you doubt these motivations are genuine, Its pretty undeniable that the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein. However I do get the distinct impression that some people here are just waiting for the show to start on TV, and that some of them will be 'whooping and hollering' as they watch bombs smash into various buildings etc. Even if they don't manage to be outwardly so course I am certain that some will sit and watch the images and quietly enjoy what they are seeing. I can understand this. Before I understood anything much about politics I pretty much did the same thing. But I confess that now when I see these images they make me feel nothing more than physically ill. I gain no pleasure whatsoever anymore from watching giant Daisy Cutter bombs wipe out an entire mountain side of people, or a cruise missile slam into a building and physically disintegrate all of the occupants. I know all the arguments that war is sometimes necessary - and sometimes if I try hard to overcome my distaste and refer to some of my most basic instincts, I can still just about see the truth in this. But more and more with each bomb I see hit a building - and the more people I see killed I increasingly think that on the whole, as a species, the human race is pretty much just frikin nuts... I think people who enjoy events like this (some of whom even appear to be looking forward to it) are probably the most nuts of all.

But what do you do? I have heard too many first hand accounts of the results of war to find killing people in any way fulfilling to watch. Sometimes I wish some of these people could be put on the front line - and then maybe they could come back and tell us whether they really thought it was such a great wheeze or not.

Q

Falstaff · Mar 15, 2003, 10:14 AM

I can say with some validity that if we put a few of our Hawks in the front lines, a sobering distaste for war would give them such indigestion as each cold bite of reality hit them, that somehow, a more creative approach to eliminating threats would emerge....I recall Gunboat diplomacy,and remaking the world in some kind of democratic image...I know this may sound unamerican....but it doesn't work for everyone the first time around.....a strong hand will be needed in IRAQ, as firm as any dictaters, hopefully without the incredible cruelty of Hussein...but I recall how cruel we were to the american indians....How can we say we are without shame....perhaps if Israel obeys the U.N. then our own tarnished image may emerge from this whole thing with more credibility...As it stands, we are like an dump truck with one good break headed downhill with several tons of steel. The only way to stop is to unload it somewhere....(bad analogy?)

leon_cs · Mar 15, 2003, 02:43 PM

At he moment whos threatining, Saddam or US. Why is Saddam more threatning than Israel? or the US. Mak more enemies Mr Bush and ask for more calamities.

The_Neon_Cowboy · Mar 16, 2003, 09:09 AM

raid517 · Mar 16, 2003, 11:57 AM

Well if anything, no one could ever accuse The_Neon_Cowboy of being original...

Q

Mar 15, 2003, 08:24 AM	#40
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Disagreement is not disent I support action in IRAQ whether it is military or or more domestic and internal in nature, because I believe that the world finds Hussein repugnant, regardless of any "moral dynamic" behind the ouster of a criminal or meglomaniac, (take your pick). I don't want a long protracted war, nor a quick but ineffective solution. I feel that Saddam will yield eventually, whether his country dissolves his power or we fragment it with a rain of steel and fire. But without some sort of "throttle" that slows the engine of change, there would be a good chance of repeating the mistakes of the Gulf War..When we finally see the live footage of the forthcoming conflict, perhaps those that took a stand for their beliefs might be swayed by military successes. Americans will complain, disagree, and even claim a moral stand over war, but eventually, they will become familiar with the circumstances, will see their sons and daughters on television and somehow the American media will thread the whole terrible mess together as a "just war" against Hussein. I know that sounds pessimistic, but our attention span is rather short, and the media here will keep it interesting and perhaps steer our opinion effectively, again..I fought in the Gulf War, and had to endure insults from other americans that saw the missles we fired miss targets and destroy civilian targets. Now, I enjoy reverence from my family, my friends and the respect of others that I served with. I refuse to say that this war is "just" because I am a christian, but I know that my president has made a compelling argument for some sort of military action, and as a U.S. citizen, and a loyal american, I know that ultimately I may have to make a sacrifice to fulfill an obligation that I accepted over 20 years ago, when I said I would defend my country against all enemies both foriegn and domestic. I have a sense of duty to my country, and I hope that somehow, a final repreive, an ephiphony will occur and this whole military solution will be side stepped by brilliant diplomacy, but the odds are so against that happening, it merely strengthens my resolve... I respect the fact that people all over the world want to find another solution besides war, find another alternative to violence, maybe the social compact of the United Nations carries some responsibility for all its members to find a better choice instead of war. Maybe all this sabre rattling is just more diplomatic "brinksmanship"...Saddam will see the overwhelming power of the United States and Britian, and silently and very carefully, fade into the limitless horizen of the desert, never to return....but I don't think so....I quietly contemplate peace, and ask some divine interference, and ask for protection of the sons and daughters of IRAQI people, who surely must fear this as much as I do for my own children, who are old enough to die for their country.... When will this diplomatic melodrama end?, and we can continue on with the business of living...because now, people on both sides of this terrible conflict can only contemplate dying for their country as well...The world is getting so much smaller now, everything is in real time, ...I hope this does not become another "REALITY SHOW" for americans.. but I know somewhere in front of a television screens all over the world, people will watch the news long enough to see a few bombs dropped, IRAQI soldiers obliterated by our weapons and perhaps a few weak remarks by our "play by play" media and then we will all go to sleep soundly, knowing that it is happening thousands of miles away.... __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor." Last edited by fallang_jeff; Mar 15, 2003 at 08:30 AM.

Mar 15, 2003, 09:24 AM	#41
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well I don't know Jeff, whether you support the reasons behind this war or not, or as in my case you doubt these motivations are genuine, Its pretty undeniable that the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein. However I do get the distinct impression that some people here are just waiting for the show to start on TV, and that some of them will be 'whooping and hollering' as they watch bombs smash into various buildings etc. Even if they don't manage to be outwardly so course I am certain that some will sit and watch the images and quietly enjoy what they are seeing. I can understand this. Before I understood anything much about politics I pretty much did the same thing. But I confess that now when I see these images they make me feel nothing more than physically ill. I gain no pleasure whatsoever anymore from watching giant Daisy Cutter bombs wipe out an entire mountain side of people, or a cruise missile slam into a building and physically disintegrate all of the occupants. I know all the arguments that war is sometimes necessary - and sometimes if I try hard to overcome my distaste and refer to some of my most basic instincts, I can still just about see the truth in this. But more and more with each bomb I see hit a building - and the more people I see killed I increasingly think that on the whole, as a species, the human race is pretty much just frikin nuts... I think people who enjoy events like this (some of whom even appear to be looking forward to it) are probably the most nuts of all. But what do you do? I have heard too many first hand accounts of the results of war to find killing people in any way fulfilling to watch. Sometimes I wish some of these people could be put on the front line - and then maybe they could come back and tell us whether they really thought it was such a great wheeze or not. Q Last edited by raid517; Mar 15, 2003 at 09:44 AM.

Mar 15, 2003, 10:14 AM	#42
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	Foxhole logic I can say with some validity that if we put a few of our Hawks in the front lines, a sobering distaste for war would give them such indigestion as each cold bite of reality hit them, that somehow, a more creative approach to eliminating threats would emerge....I recall Gunboat diplomacy,and remaking the world in some kind of democratic image...I know this may sound unamerican....but it doesn't work for everyone the first time around.....a strong hand will be needed in IRAQ, as firm as any dictaters, hopefully without the incredible cruelty of Hussein...but I recall how cruel we were to the american indians....How can we say we are without shame....perhaps if Israel obeys the U.N. then our own tarnished image may emerge from this whole thing with more credibility...As it stands, we are like an dump truck with one good break headed downhill with several tons of steel. The only way to stop is to unload it somewhere....(bad analogy?) __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Mar 16, 2003, 09:09 AM	Thread Starter #44
The_Neon_Cowboy HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16,009 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	__________________

Mar 14, 2003, 04:55 PM	#31
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Well whatever you claim Americans think those figures talk plain english and.....they clearly show that the support Bush had.......is NOT....the same as it was.Initially hois support was much much higher.....so i figure he lost something on the way.........and it will continue.... Until he is gone.... Bluelight Bluelight

Mar 14, 2003, 05:04 PM	#32
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	You know, I am getting sick and tired of repugnant statements such as "I don't think it is possible for some Republicans to indulge in any form of independant thinking. Language like this purely demonstrates that they are only too happy to be told what they should and should not think. This is very, very sad.." If the fact that someone could have a different interpretation of the facts from you is incomprehensible, you need to take off your blinders and acquaint yourself with the real world. If you don't think you can change minds, why debate at all?

Mar 14, 2003, 07:39 PM	#34
JavaFox E Pluribus Unum Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,203 Rep Power: 0	Well, Frodo, FoxNews tends to attract more conservatives inasmuch as it actually does attempt to be politically even-handed, unlike other news outlets. That said, even the notoriously liberal (and liberal in this context is significant because in America it is liberals that are largely against the war) New York Times conducted a poll in which the majority of Americans back war and think the UN is mishandling the situation.

Mar 14, 2003, 09:10 PM	#36
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Yeah i do think it is of outmost importnace who it is that publishes the statistics but...if you see statistics in a major newspaper or...if you see them o an "independent" (if that is still possible" tv channel they are likely to be reasonable. Javas figures seem reasonable to me.The initial support for Bush in this case was extremely high to begin with.The figures (if they are correct) are probably what would be normal and would reflect that many democrats that before supported Bush...now has started acting as what they are politically etc etc... Bluelight

Mar 14, 2003, 09:15 PM	#37
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well pretty much nobody will want to be seen as having been on the loosing side after a war. So you will see a lot of people particularly politicians hoping for re-election starting to change sides right about now. So yes a surge in support at this point in time isn't surprising. Q

Mar 15, 2003, 07:53 AM	#39
~~bluelight~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,328 Rep Power: 0	Still i do think that the main media in Usa actually do treat polls like thisa reasonably....When push comes to shove....it is never in the interest of free media to direct things like this. Sure it can happen ocasionally but i dont think it is a rule... If Bush was said to have something like 90 percent support last year.....well i have no big reason to question that in the light of what had happened.. Anyone leadin a country with things like this going on would have similar figures.Now it sems things are slowly going back to "normal"....which is good...I do not believe ´that 100 percent support for leaders ius ultimatley good for democracy and development. Disagreeing is the motor of development in a away. Bluey

Mar 15, 2003, 02:43 PM	#43
leon_cs DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 3 Rep Power: 0	At he moment whos threatining, Saddam or US. Why is Saddam more threatning than Israel? or the US. Mak more enemies Mr Bush and ask for more calamities.

Mar 16, 2003, 11:57 AM	#45
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well if anything, no one could ever accuse The_Neon_Cowboy of being original... Q