JavaFox

Well, I was there yesterday, and I must say -- the minority of Americans who have decided to continue protest while Americans, British, and Australians risk life and limb in Iraq are as loud as ever.

A couple hundred of said individuals blocked traffic in the financial distrinct (they were joined by several thousand later in a march up Market Street), playing music and loudly annoucing their dissaproval of the coalition war to liberate Iraq.

Eventually fed up with the incessant shouting of "stop the war," I shouted to the group "Why don't you people support our troops instead? The war's already begun." A man nearby told me to speak up. Yeah, there were pro-war people there, though we were squarely in the minority. I addressed the crowd again, saying, "There is blood on your hands!" After all, had Saddam Hussein not witnessesed the strong anti-war opinion around the world, would he had so flagrantly turned down our offer for exile?

Eventually, a few men asked me if I was pro-Bush. I told them that I was, and that I was pro-America. They told me that they were too. And we walked out into the street, shouting "USA! USA! USA!" Eventually the protestors (or were we protestors?) surrounded us, suffixing our patriotic cries with the words "SUCKS." I think that speaks volumes as to exactly how these fanatical peaceniks feel.

Then the police came and cleared the street. Perhaps I was too caught up in the excitement of it all, but I saluted one and told him to keep up the good fight. I joined in the applause, and a woman told me that I should not be clapping while people died abroud. She seemed to think I wanted their voices squelched; I only thought that people should not be able to block roads. Well, and I felt that people should support our men in danger.

I debated with a few small groups. All of them had different things to say, and all of them were as hard-headed as I'm sure they thought I was. One man said numerous things about the UN -- I asked him if he's read anything from the UN. One man, when pressed by my question "Can there be peace in the Middle East before Hamas and Hezbollah are destroyed?" said that the only way to promote peace would be to destroy Israel. Another man expressed his support for Vietnam-era hatred of returning American troops -- for example, spitting on them or throwing blood on them. Another man began to quote Scott Ritter -- until I informed him that Mr. Ritter had be arrested on child solicitation charges. He called me a liar, and said that my words were "lower than the the ground."

One nice moment was when a woman announced that this was the bidding of oil industry. When I said "The oil industry has only ever supported the lifting of sanctions, not war. Do your homework." She actually responded to it, apologized, urged solidarity and debate.

But the best moment was when the crowd of protestors walked away after I defended Israel. A man walked up to me, said that I spoke the truth, and told me that he was from Israel. We shook hands, I told him "God bless you" and I left.

The extremity I saw yesterday is not, I know, characteristic of people that supported diplomacy over war, but it was surprising nontheless.

Vampyromaniac

Sure, there are extreme fanatics on every side of just about any issue . . . your experience doesn't surprise me.
I guess there's some comfort in knowing they at least care about what is going on

UberLord

As opposed to the fanatical pro-war peeps?

I realised something over the past few days. We Brits vote for a party and you Americans vote for a leader. As such, the UK labour party could change their leader (Tony Blair) and remain in control. The fact that King George II (thanks Digi) was voted as your leader means he's pretty much stuck there until the next election. Given the above, a lot of people equate "USA Sucks" chants to mean "Bush sucks"

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WarGun

Did'nt see any protesters in the streets when saddam killed thousands of kurds...and all the other war crimes hes done. now is'nt that funny?

One thing i will never understand about all this, is why are the protesters protesting over war.. and Iraqs freedom, when 75% or more of the Iraqis are supporting the war on Saddam...and when US & Brittish troops come in to thier towns and free them ,they do everything except kiss thier boots. hmm

I think peace activist need to sit down and think this out all over again, from an Iraqi perspective.

I just hope this war is done fast and as safe as possible..and that the US and its allies dont mess up.

Thats my 2 cents

Frodo301

I respect the opinion of a person who spits, throws blood, semen, urine, or feces on a person about as much as I respect what is left on the toilet paper that I wipe with. Not trying to be crude here but how can I or anyone else respect someone who's best idea of protesting is to throw body fluids on someone? It's 2003 not 1969, grow up and come up with something a bit more civil. People might just listen better if you do.

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raid517

Mmm I don't think destroying Hamas and Hezbollah is likely to bring peace of any kind, or at least I don't think trying to will ever succeed. I mean like an Israeli foreign minister said, "It’s a bit like mowing grass, every time you kill one, six more pop up somewhere else." The only difference here is you aren't talking about mowing grass, your talking about mowing down human beings. In any case I don't particularly see these groups in a terrorist light, at least no more so than Nelson Mandela’s ANC, or the Israeli 'freedom fighters' who fought with the British in the late 40's were terrorists. The only thing that separates these groups from their label of 'terrorism' is history. No the only way to address these issues is to give the Palestinians and what the vast majority of the Muslim world want, which is a state of their own. Only then will peace in this world be restored. And if you care at all for peace, which any sane person should, then you should care deeply about this too.

As for Scott Ritter, I think all that stinks very badly. Why would a prominent ant-war protestor be targeted for an entrapment exercise immediately prior to a politically important war for the US government? It is crazy to suggest the government didn't know it was him, the government can snoop on anyone sitting in front of a computer, you guys more than anyone ought to know that. And anyway even if he was a pervert, what on Earth has this got to do with anti-war sentiment? Is JavaFox seriously saying that all anti-war protestors are really just sexual perverts? Again if the intention was to smear someone, it certainly seems to have worked, as it has established a very crude link in some people's minds. Unsurprisingly JavaFox has swallowed it hook line and sinker. Perhaps though for everyone's benefit here, he would like to explain to us exactly what the direct connection is?


Mmm... Are you sure you actually had these conversations and didn't just dream them instead? People who talk about 'destroying Israel are usually somewhat associated with the Arab equivalent of the Klu Klux Klan. It is unfortunate that this is the kind of people that channels such as Fox News, ABC etc choose to show most, as it rather gives the impression that the Arab world is full of insane Kalashnikov waving, flag burring Islamic extremists, which is patently not the case. The vast majority of the Muslim world is in fact extremely moderate, just as is the case in the (supposedly/count me out) Christian West. I mean if you have ever watched Al Jazeera, its a bit like them showing a KKK meeting and saying "Look at these crazy Christians, look at how they hate us. (BTW just to clear that up for you Al Jazeera doesn't actually do this. Western TV does do the equivalent though).

As for throwing blood and spitting at soldiers, I wonder how that conversation went?

JF: "Good day Sir and why are you here may I ask?"
Protestor: "Well I'm here because I want to stop the war."
JF: And just how do you propose to do this?
Protestor : "Well, I might be a bit late for that, but when them god dang freakin' baby killers get home, I'm going to go looking for them and throw my blood and piss and spit on them".
Jf: "Thank you Sir, that was very informative."
Jf: "USA! USA! USA!"

Is it just me, or does this conversation sound a tad implausible to anyone else here? Isn't it more likely that JF just went to the march (or stumbled across it) shouted "USA!" a few times and then left without really speaking to anyone much?

Well at least this is a tad more plausible as a conversation. However this still doesn't tell the full story. Regardless of what the oil industry wanted, it would have been political suicide for any American administration to begin trading with Saddam Hussein again after the war in 1991. How would they explain this to the American public, I know the American government can sometimes seem hypocritical, but this would require taking hypocrisy to entirely new levels. They only practical way trade with Iraq could begin again would be if Saddam Hussein were removed, which is exactly what is happening.

Well anyway, its the same old disinformation campaign I guess, it all been said before - and it will all probably be said again. Lets just see what the implications of all this are before we go off on any more half cocked interpritations of history...

Q

Falstaff

I think Javafox just a tiny example of what is going on there. I also believe that many of the "protesters" may have a professional interest in their efforts. I heard that these protesters that were arrested had been also been seen at other protests in the past, in other cities, protesting other issues...but then "It's San Francisco" and I am not surprised at anything, just check out the Mission District or the Tenderloin, ha ha....and what about all the Granola crunchers that hand out at Noah's Bagels, sheesh.....

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raid517

Well I don't know why protestors need to have a professional interest in anything. Protestors are just protestors. Like some republicans here are fond of telling me, its a good job you we don't live in countries where these kinds of protests are impossible. Though from what I hear from republicans sometimes, it often seems they would like to make them impossible. A very paradoxical argument if you ask me. If I were you and I cared about freedom I would be glad the protestors existed, even if I didn't agree with their views.

Q

Falstaff

I lived in Japan for six years and became familiar with professional protesters, they were organized and legally santioned by the government to protests whatever they want, as long as they didn't tie up traffic, break windows and overturn police cars, they effectively got their message across and didn't hurt anyone or offend anyone to my knowlege, but they were huge in number and even advertised when and where they would be...different culture though..

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raid517

Well I didn't go on any protests, but I know some people who did. And none of them were 'professional protestors'. Indeed the vast majority of them had never been on a protest march before in their lives, since they had never really felt strongly enough before about anything to protest about it. Calling them 'professional protestors' is just a polite way of saying they were no more than a 'rent a mob', which is both insulting and utterly untrue. They were just ordinary people who felt strongly enough about something to try to ensure that in a supposedly democratic society their voices were heard. Like I said, you should still be grateful they exist. What I wonder would be JF's solution? Ban them? Lock them up? Set the dogs on them? And would he export this version of 'freedom' to other countries, like Iraq for example? If so, why bother, they already lived like that under Saddam Hussein.

Q

Falstaff

If you protested the war in vietnam, you could go home with a nasty lump on your head, jail time, or dead....I can remember Kent State, and the youngsters that will never have a future, because they stood up to the national guard, and this is in America! As long as the protesters remain an inconvience then they have done their jobs I suppose

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ByteMe

Why waste your time. Using a gun would of been more effective.

raid517

Lol. I think all talk of ByteMe reforming may have been a little premature. Well if I were you Byte I would go and start fighting for good old Saddam, because he believed in exactly the same things too.

Q

UberLord

We're hoping that ByteMe has reformed to the extent of not insulting people outside of the Flame Warzone.
If ByteMe ever changes his attitude in politics then I'll be trying to catch the falling sky

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JavaFox

Sir, it is extremely disrespectful of you to question my honesty on this matter. I'm going to ask that if you can't keep your hatred for me and my position in check, that you refrain from participating in this conversation. We want to keep this civil, after all. Calling someone a liar isn't very conducive to the atmosphere we want in this forum. So, please, if you can't handle being respectful, then don't participate at all.

What happened was this. I said "After Vietnam, our troops came home and peaceniks like you threw blood at them and spit at them" and this individual said "I support that." His comrades quickly distanced themselves from this position. When I incredulously asked if he did indeed support that sort of disrespect, he again said yes, and announced that he did not support the troops in danger.


Give me a break. Firstly, if this were truly about oil, this is the wrong way to go about it. You don't risk political suicide (which this war is sure to be for both Bush and Blair in the case of a long war), you don't risk human life, and you don't risk the destruction of Iraqi oil wells. You simply deal with Iraq. Saddam would have gladly obliged.

But let's think about this, my good and honorable friend. If this were truly about oil, would America not go after Saudi Arabia, who has even more oil than Iraq, with superior oil delivery infrastructure? Is there not plenty of evidence linking Saudi Arabia and the 9/11 atrocity, including the fact that most of the hijackers themselves were Saudi? In other words, if this is a war fueled by propaganda as you say, would the US have not been able to make a very strong case against the Saudis and then attacked that nation?

But, of course, we did not.

The_Neon_Cowboy

times to test some MOHA bombs .... in the middle of the crowds lol get rid of them quick while we have them all togeather..j/k.. It stupid when anti americans live in america they should have thier citizen ship questioned.... fact "lot of anti war protester/organizers are anti-american"..... people burning flags and booing the natinal antem etc... is just the opposite of patriotic.. they say it anti war but relly many are protesting agenst america itself NOT the war..... People tearing down/vandelizing patriotic displays/memorials to those who died in 9/11.... these people sicken me to the depth of my sole.... it if was up to me all thier posessions land/money/etc should be forfit (given to the familys of those lost in 9/11) and be denouced citzenship and deported or imprisioned for life...... I am just a little worked up here but these people are sick ... it like going and desacrating garves of soldgiers/ 9/11 victoms.... these people are more than protesting the war thay are a discrace ..... to every man who has died to protect his country...to eveyone ..............

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The_Neon_Cowboy

Yea I know the protesters are blided by thier hate of the USA or thier masss stupidity take your pick..... these people or IRAQ want to be freed and are suport of the US led war... but no one take that into account I dont think they care eather . Its so selfish of them.. these people are happy to be liberated/freed

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The_Neon_Cowboy

I go back to quote my self again on this one, the anti - war protesters should all be drafted trained and made to fight.... then come back happy to see thier homland after fightuing a war they had no say in after surviveing 4 years of hell... and get abused/harrsed/killed becouse of it like people did after veitnam.... then they could feel the shoes of the troops... the troops have No say when and where they go ad are orderd to do...

They gruops are getting out of hand... like the human shield groups going and taking orders from saddom .. and getting setup to try to get aot of soldgers killed to protest the war.... that not a protest that is high treason and these people should be eather not allowed to re enter then US. ever or tryied for high treason by a millitary tribunal ....... and all thier US. assets siezed........

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raid517

Oh relax JF will you, its you who are reading much more into this than is actually there. I'm not sure anyone is in a position here to lecture anyone else about being respectful, since you don't seem able to manage it regarding other people's views, in this case particularly those protestors. I have seen many disrespectful posts/threads made by you in the past, but I'm sure you didn't consider them disrespectful, so I guess it’s all a matter of perspective. I didn't see anything I wrote particularly disrespectful, so there you go. I'd say were about even on that score. Anyway, I do not wish to dwell on this subject, all I did was make a casual light hearted remark, there seemed at least to me to be an element of fantasy to what you said. We don't live in a world where everyone implicitly believes everything everyone says, if we did we would be living in a very strange world. I see no reason why things should be different here.

'He said', 'she said', 'we said'. Ever hear of a Chinese rumour? You know how it goes; it's when someone whispers something in someone's ear and then that person whispers it in another persons ear, and then that person does the same and so on until 20 or more people down the line when someone is asked to repeat the information out loud the story has changed beyond all recognition from the original? Well all I'm saying is that it might take a few less steps on an internet forum. Particularly when it comes to making a point that has been made 50 times already. This is classic JF stuff; I'm not sure if real people even talk that way. (Well certainly none on the far right, or far left I have ever encountered).

Well I never said this was just about oil, I think oil is a part of it, but I think this is also about America's strategic dominance in the world - and in this particular instance in the Mid East. You would have to think about what was politically more risky domestically. Restarting normal relations with someone many right wing Americans still viewed to be their mortal enemy, or fighting a war who's outcome was already a fore gone conclusion before even a single shot is fired. The risk of defeat in this matter is essentially zero. So from a political and strategic standpoint, where I wonder is the risk? The benefit is massive influence (if not direct control) over oil prices and a clear indication to other countries in the region of American military power and influence. Imagine if you will for a moment a quick call by Bush in 2 years or so to the newly elected (American approved?) Iraqi president. Oil prices are a bit high, so he instructs the Iraqi leadership to turn on the taps to drive oil prices down again. So what does the new Iraqi leader do? Disobey? And risk the same thing happening to him that happened to Saddam? No of course not. He says to his boss Bush, 'Of course I will, after all it was you who gave me my job..."

As for saying I hate you... Well this really is getting carried away... I don't 'hate' anyone, but I do detest your views. As for hating you, I don't know how that would be possible, since in reality I don't know you from Adam. Hating someone I don't know doesn't seem very practical to me - let alone it being a complete waste of energy.

Anyway if these people did speak to you in this strange way, then excuse me for getting it wrong. As I said it just sounds very weird and implausible to me that people would speak in this way, unless it was a comedy made about the loony left specifically for the consumption of the American Republican Party faithful. (Even then I think you would have to pay someone to speak like this). Mind you they do say 'only in America.' So anything's possible I guess.

Q

raid517

Well JF you certainly managed to whip Neon up into a mini patriotic frenzy... He thinks protestors should be bombed, or looked up in prison, or stripped of their rights. Sound familiar? I wonder if you would agree with this too? Because if you do, as I have said, you are probably fighting on the wrong side. Saddam has been doing this for years, so by this chain of reasoning he would make the perfect republican citizen (oops, I forgot, he already has been once). People who spout garbage like this certainly can't be interested in defending freedom, at least not any version of freedom that I recognise.

Q

UberLord

Chill guys - dont let this forum get removed

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The_Neon_Cowboy

I agree with raid oil is a factor in this but not the magor or only factor/reason this war is for.....

as for the veitnam stuff it wouldnt suprize me... I have alot of older friends who fought in veitnam/ some WW2 vets as well ... so what I hear of what happend are not hand me downs from person to person but from some of those directly involved. when people cam back home they were warned Not to wear thier uniform off base ... due to anti war protesters/ anti war sediment be people... for example one the the gentelman I work with curently remembers comeing home from vietnam ... after his 2 year draft was up... he was told not to wear his uniform off base... wore it anyways got a cab first thing that cab driver said?- you better get out of that uniform ..... It was very common for soldgiers comeing home to be harrased / attacked / assulted / provoked etc... one instance of someone getting killed... but sadly this kind of stuff must of happend...

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raid517

Well that's fair enough Neon, but that was a whole other era... and a whole other war. I don't think its particularly clever to get the two confused.

Like I said, if you do care about freedom, you ought to be thankful that these protestors exist...


Well I was chilled out Uber, until someone took exception to an off the cuff humerous remark I made. The last time I checked on the rules of good debating (and yes there are a lot of good books on this subject) it is generally never wise to go of on a tangent about something that might be construed by many as simple 'hear say'. Hear say is hardly firm ground on which to base a debate. Just my 2C...

Q

UberLord

I was asking to cut back on the personal remarks - nothing more or less. Here's a hint - never attack someone by name and never say "that sucks" or "that's a lie" or similar without backing yourself up. This is a political debate forum, not a flame warzone

BTW, this is not targeted at you raid, this is targeted at every poster in the PD forum

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raid517

Fair enough Uber, like I said, it was a passing remark... As I said i don't hate anyone.

Q

UberLord

S'OK - it was a passing warning

I don't expect to hand it out too many times - the active posters are here pretty much the same and post in all the threads

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raid517

Mmm its a pity these threads seem to get a lot more heated at times than others. But oh well, that's to be expected I guess...

Q

UberLord

Political debate is mainly like flaming but without the personal attacks, insults and derogatory comments

Rarely do peeps change their stance here - but at least some peeps including myself do back down in some arguments

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JavaFox

Raid, what I said was for you to either start being respectful or stop participating in this thread. Pointing the finger at me isn't sufficient. In this political context, it is interesting to note that in America, we call that maneuver "Clintonian." At any rate, if you are truly being light-hearted, that is great, but my statement still stands. You can either be respectful, or you can refrain from participation.

I think the problem here is that the people I've described are people who you happen to share at least some views with. Therefore, rather than disagree with their extremity, it is easier for you to simply call me a liar. Ah, well. I have no interest in fabricating an account -- if you can't believe that such bizarre opinions can exist on the far left, then I think that says a little bit more about you than myself.

At any rate, I think that the people that know me will have little reason to suspect my dishonesty on this matter, even if they disagree with my politics. I suppose that matters a bit more than the baseless accusations you are lobbing against me.

UberLord

[size=xx-large][color=red] FM - STOP WITH THE PERSONAL INSULTS ALREADY. [/color][/size]

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